Raptors,Warp talons and Jump pack tactics!

[Kierdale]

I managed to pull off the Warptime trick in a game yesterday and got my dual flamer raptors in close enough to torch some long fangs before charging them. And the raptor who survived the ensuing melee fell back far enough to torch a completely different unit :tu:

 

I will be making my second squad of raptors with dual plasma and a power sword on the champion (maybe a plasma pistol too).

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I haven't got my own game yet, but have heard of many experiences from my friend. Many of them pointed out the fact that the new Falling Back system really hurt the close-combat army.

 

That's why i will run my warp talon with a Fiends of Slaanesh or two

[Kierdale]

I can vouch for Fiends too. I only fielded two in my army but they certainly drew a lot of attention (read: enemy fire) and, having three wounds each, survived long enough that they kept the enemy's attention off other stuff. I think the fact that they're a bit rare, look freaky and are bloody fast was why they drew fire. I had hoped to have them tie up the enemy (or get close enough to his runepriest) but they served their purpose.

If they had got into combat alongside raptors or talons....oh Slaanesh! :D

 

Another point: herald of Slaanesh on Steed for the +1S to fiends and Talons :tu:

[Dardl]

Looking for advice on this concept list I designed for a fast attack night lords army 2k

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP 
 

+ HQ +
 

Chaos Lord on Bike [7 PL, 128pts]: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw (Pair)
 

+ Troops +
 

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 78pts]: 4x Chaos Space Marine, No Chaos Mark, Plasma gun

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
 

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 78pts]: 4x Chaos Space Marine, No Chaos Mark, Plasma gun

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
 

+ Fast Attack +
 

Chaos Bikers [7 PL, 203pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter, Meltagun

. Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter, Meltagun

. Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-bolter

. Chaos Biker Champion: Combi-bolter, Power sword
 

Chaos Spawn [6 PL, 99pts]: 3x Chaos Spawn
 

Chaos Spawn [6 PL, 99pts]: 3x Chaos Spawn
 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP 
 

+ HQ +
 

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 97pts]: Chainsword, Power sword
 

+ Fast Attack +
 

Raptors [12 PL, 158pts]: 2x Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, 6x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Power axe
 

Raptors [12 PL, 158pts]: 2x Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, 6x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Power axe
 

Raptors [12 PL, 145pts]: No Chaos Mark, 2x Plasma pistol and chainsword, 6x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Plasma pistol, Power axe
 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP 
 

+ HQ +
 

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [8 PL, 126pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword
 

+ Fast Attack +
 

Chaos Spawn [6 PL, 99pts]: 3x Chaos Spawn
 

Warp Talons [18 PL, 168pts]

. 5x Warp Talon: 5x Lightning Claw (Pair)

. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (Pair)
 

Warp Talons [18 PL, 168pts]

. 5x Warp Talon: 5x Lightning Claw (Pair)

. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (Pair)

 

+ Elites +
 

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 183pts]: Kheres assault cannon

. Hellforged deathclaw and combi-bolter: Combi-bolter
 

++ Total: [138 PL, 1987pts] ++

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I can vouch for Fiends too. I only fielded two in my army but they certainly drew a lot of attention (read: enemy fire) and, having three wounds each, survived long enough that they kept the enemy's attention off other stuff. I think the fact that they're a bit rare, look freaky and are bloody fast was why they drew fire. I had hoped to have them tie up the enemy (or get close enough to his runepriest) but they served their purpose.

If they had got into combat alongside raptors or talons....oh Slaanesh!

 

Another point: herald of Slaanesh on Steed for the +1S to fiends and Talons

 

Or you can just run a standard Herald, sumoning him with the jetpack sorcerer who go with the Raptors/Talon for Warptime. Can't fail the summoning of an herald. 

Only downside : your sorcerer need to survive one round possibly in the no mans land (if he fail the 9+ charge). 

[Sception]

If your sorcerer is a daemon prince who casts warp time on himself, then he's far less likely to fail that charge.

 

The summoned herald still wouldn't show up until the next turn, though, and summoning in melee can be tricky due to the proximity to enemy models.

[Doom Herald]

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone brought up using Nurgle Raptors with Icon to swarm? I was thinking maybe using a Daemon Prince with warptime to expedite movement, and summoning Nurgle Furies for the 12" radius AoE on units that fail moralle. The Rules say modifyers stack, so that's +1 to the test they have to beat and -1 to Ld. from one unit. A swarm could break moralle and Furies pick off more enemies when moralle breaks. Edited July 5, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Azekai]

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone brought up using Nurgle Raptors with Icon to swarm? I was thinking maybe using a Daemon Prince with warptime to expedite movement, and summoning Nurgle Furies for the 12" radius AoE on units that fail moralle. The Rules say modifyers stack, so that's +1 to the test they have to beat and -1 to Ld. from one unit. A swarm could break moralle and Furies pick off more enemies when moralle breaks.

I have been tempted to try something similar but furies are so damn squishy (even if they are Nurgle-aligned) that this will likely only work once per game, if that. The furies have to be so close they are always within double tap range of rapid fire weapons.

 

Personally I just like taking a lot of flying daemon princes. I took three in my last game, and they murdered a helldrake and a bloodthirster before mopping up a big unit of berzerkers. Smite is very strong, and if your DPs can fly, it almost ensures you can Smite/charge whatever you need to.

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone brought up using Nurgle Raptors with Icon to swarm? I was thinking maybe using a Daemon Prince with warptime to expedite movement, and summoning Nurgle Furies for the 12" radius AoE on units that fail moralle. The Rules say modifyers stack, so that's +1 to the test they have to beat and -1 to Ld. from one unit. A swarm could break moralle and Furies pick off more enemies when moralle breaks.

I have been tempted to try something similar but furies are so damn squishy (even if they are Nurgle-aligned) that this will likely only work once per game, if that. The furies have to be so close they are always within double tap range of rapid fire weapons.

 

Personally I just like taking a lot of flying daemon princes. I took three in my last game, and they murdered a helldrake and a bloodthirster before mopping up a big unit of berzerkers. Smite is very strong, and if your DPs can fly, it almost ensures you can Smite/charge whatever you need to.

True, they are squishy, but they are also low aggro compared to the raptors in the enemy's face. Plus, if you keep the enemy in combat, they can only fire after breaking away if they have the FLY keyword.

 

The Furies don't need to be active combatants, but even if they do become a target, they will take fire away from the Raptors. Between the 5+ invul. and the Disgustingly Resilient save, they have potentialy decent durability. 2/3 of 2/3 of successful wounds will stick, that's only 44% which is about on par with non-power armor armies.

[The Fey Mallory]

I just watched my friends play a game where 5 Warp Talons deep striked behind scenery near a Dark Angel's tactical unit (10 men). They failed their charge roll, but used a command point for a re-roll, and succeeded.

 

They wiped out 8 of the 10 men.

 

I did some maths, and I'd have estimated them killing  5ish (11 attacks, about 2/3 hit, so say 8-9 hit, taking Death of the False Emperor rule into account), 3/4 wound (re-rolls on 1/2 odds), and then -2 AP so 2/3 Damage, hence about 5, maybe 6 dead by my calculations...? So perhaps it was a good role, but even so, not bad.

 

I'm going to try some, but team them with some plasma raptors, a sorcerer and a lord (with jump packs). That way the overcharged, rapid-firing plasma and talon hits will have re-rolls of 1, and the sorcerer can not only use the movement spell, but the other spell to allow +1 to hit rolls, guaranteeing they hit everything. I was also going to deepstrike a slaanesh herald for strength, but given that you can't deep strike and then summon, and then when you do summon, neither the daemon nor sorcerer can move, I'm dubious whether it's worth the complexity. I think the sorcerer is more useful.

 

I am playing with the idea of having a Slaanesh Daemon Prince as opposed to a CSM one, and summoning him in at some point, just for backup rather than part of the jump pack offensive. I have a really good model for him, and the more stuff I get into the enemy's backfield, the better. I'm also thinking of a Heldrake to tie up a unit to stop my Raptors being charged etc. I believe the Raptor can pretty much get across the board and charge something turn 1?

[Dardl]

I just watched my friends play a game where 5 Warp Talons deep striked behind scenery near a Dark Angel's tactical unit (10 men). They failed their charge roll, but used a command point for a re-roll, and succeeded.

 

They wiped out 8 of the 10 men.

 

I did some maths, and I'd have estimated them killing  5ish (11 attacks, about 2/3 hit, so say 8-9 hit, taking Death of the False Emperor rule into account), 3/4 wound (re-rolls on 1/2 odds), and then -2 AP so 2/3 Damage, hence about 5, maybe 6 dead by my calculations...? So perhaps it was a good role, but even so, not bad.

 

I'm going to try some, but team them with some plasma raptors, a sorcerer and a lord (with jump packs). That way the overcharged, rapid-firing plasma and talon hits will have re-rolls of 1, and the sorcerer can not only use the movement spell, but the other spell to allow +1 to hit rolls, guaranteeing they hit everything. I was also going to deepstrike a slaanesh herald for strength, but given that you can't deep strike and then summon, and then when you do summon, neither the daemon nor sorcerer can move, I'm dubious whether it's worth the complexity. I think the sorcerer is more useful.

 

I am playing with the idea of having a Slaanesh Daemon Prince as opposed to a CSM one, and summoning him in at some point, just for backup rather than part of the jump pack offensive. I have a really good model for him, and the more stuff I get into the enemy's backfield, the better. I'm also thinking of a Heldrake to tie up a unit to stop my Raptors being charged etc. I believe the Raptor can pretty much get across the board and charge something turn 1?

Wow that is some impressive moves by the warp talons. I'm going to run two squads of 6. backed up by melta and plasma raptors with a  jump lord and jump sorcerer.

 

They will be the Anvil the hammer will be a mix of spawn and bikers with some backfield support from las cannons and maybe a kheres contempter.  I'm very confident the list will deliver. 

[The Fey Mallory]

 

I just watched my friends play a game where 5 Warp Talons deep striked behind scenery near a Dark Angel's tactical unit (10 men). They failed their charge roll, but used a command point for a re-roll, and succeeded.

 

They wiped out 8 of the 10 men.

 

I did some maths, and I'd have estimated them killing  5ish (11 attacks, about 2/3 hit, so say 8-9 hit, taking Death of the False Emperor rule into account), 3/4 wound (re-rolls on 1/2 odds), and then -2 AP so 2/3 Damage, hence about 5, maybe 6 dead by my calculations...? So perhaps it was a good role, but even so, not bad.

 

I'm going to try some, but team them with some plasma raptors, a sorcerer and a lord (with jump packs). That way the overcharged, rapid-firing plasma and talon hits will have re-rolls of 1, and the sorcerer can not only use the movement spell, but the other spell to allow +1 to hit rolls, guaranteeing they hit everything. I was also going to deepstrike a slaanesh herald for strength, but given that you can't deep strike and then summon, and then when you do summon, neither the daemon nor sorcerer can move, I'm dubious whether it's worth the complexity. I think the sorcerer is more useful.

 

I am playing with the idea of having a Slaanesh Daemon Prince as opposed to a CSM one, and summoning him in at some point, just for backup rather than part of the jump pack offensive. I have a really good model for him, and the more stuff I get into the enemy's backfield, the better. I'm also thinking of a Heldrake to tie up a unit to stop my Raptors being charged etc. I believe the Raptor can pretty much get across the board and charge something turn 1?

Wow that is some impressive moves by the warp talons. I'm going to run two squads of 6. backed up by melta and plasma raptors with a  jump lord and jump sorcerer.

 

They will be the Anvil the hammer will be a mix of spawn and bikers with some backfield support from las cannons and maybe a kheres contempter.  I'm very confident the list will deliver. 

 

 

Yep, they sure impressed me too.

 

Also, in that game, 4 or 5 spawn (can't remember exactly) took out 5 deathwing terminators (or whatever the Dark Angel termies are called). Spawn have enough wounds to handle powerfists, and plenty of attacks with acceptable armour penetration to take them down. I'm going to run some as my anti-terminator units too. Their speed also means they can get to wherever the termies deep strike to quickly, as well.

 

Other stars were the Possessed (unit of 10 took out 2 10-man infantry units). I feel that Possessed are about equal to Warp Talons for effectiveness, which given their similarities isn't too surprising; the other star unit was the Defiler, which has really grown from 7th to 8th - it's now a very hard to kill, very deadly weapon, whittling down the enemy with its battle cannon as it marches down the board. In this game it fired its battle cannon at a venerable dreadnought, and then smashed it apart in melee, and then used a heavy flamer on the neighbouring unit sitting in the ruins next to it. The Company Master sadly finished it off, but it took out 3 units altogether first, and was the focus of enemy firepower throughout.

 

Daemon summoning (because this was a Word Bearer's army, so one would expect this to happen at some point) was good for backfield control - allowing a unit of horrors to appear on an objective, holding it whilst picking of enemy stragglers.

 

Overall, I feel chaos is doing reasonably well at the moment, although this was just one game, and the chaos player was by far the more aggressive one (the Dark Angels held back and didn't advance much, whereas chaos pushed forward, and managed to bring the main force up to join the fast attack elements (warp talons and possessed). I feel chaos works best with an aggressive style, pushing up the main force, and then dropping fast attack elements into their back lines, but timed so that the main force can assist/cover/ synergise with them inside the enemy's territory.

 

My army is Emperor's Children, and fluff-wise, I see them as being less about daemons and daemon engines, so my  unit choices are going to be different (no defiles and forgefiends for me, but I will take a Heldrake). My army has a Land Raider, rhinos, noise marines (assault and sound weapon units separately), a sonic dreadnought (back in the game post-FW faq), some Chosen, and a C-Beam Rapier and an Laser Destroyer Rapier, so as to weaken the enemy's defences before my noise marines attack them. and I'm going to add warp talons and raptors for my fast attack. I have spawn, daemon princes and cultists I can add in too. hopefully, that will cover all the bases.

 

Also, off topic, but 10 noise marines with icon and chainsword/pistol do 30 attacks base + 1/3 from Death to the False Emperor (enhanced with icon) = 40 attacks, and then add 10 from pistols. I know a unit would really be 9 + champion, but you can see how the'd do 40ish attacks + 10 shots in combat. Weaker attacks than Warp Talons, but excellent against hordes I suspect. I'll get a game with this lot in the next 2 weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes!

[sanityimpaired]

Raptors seem to me to be one of the cases in which plasma pistols make sense.  Two pistols cost 1 point more than a single plasma gun, and will put out the same amount of firepower within 12" while still having the option of shooting when stuck in.  You're trading off more volume of fire on arriving, but if they survive to your next turn you've got a significant benefit.

 

[Brother Aiwass]

Note on the Noise Marines: You'll kill an average of ~12 conscripts with them in CQC (only horde that triggers DttFE afaik).

 

Cheers!

[Kierdale]

Raptors seem to me to be one of the cases in which plasma pistols make sense.  Two pistols cost 1 point more than a single plasma gun, and will put out the same amount of firepower within 12" while still having the option of shooting when stuck in.  You're trading off more volume of fire on arriving, but if they survive to your next turn you've got a significant benefit.

 

But as they can FLY, if they survive a turn of combat they can fall back and shoot with plasma guns at rapid fire range, no? And potentially at a different target.

[sanityimpaired]

 

Raptors seem to me to be one of the cases in which plasma pistols make sense.  Two pistols cost 1 point more than a single plasma gun, and will put out the same amount of firepower within 12" while still having the option of shooting when stuck in.  You're trading off more volume of fire on arriving, but if they survive to your next turn you've got a significant benefit.

But as they can FLY, if they survive a turn of combat they can fall back and shoot with plasma guns at rapid fire range, no? And potentially at a different target.

 

Sure, but for a single point more you can shoot without having to fall back so you still get your melee attacks.  You also get to keep your chainsword, so you still get the extra attack in melee.

 

The downside is that you can't get as much plasma fire packed into a single unit since you're having to take two pistols to equal one plasma gun.

[Doom Herald]

Im fielding raptor units where the champion dual wields pistols and the special weapons are plasma guns. I find it to be a nice mix of range/melee capability. The guns allow you to kite melee targets from a safe distance from charges, while the pistols allow for 6 plasma shots (2 pistols and 2rapid fire guns) before charging + 2 plasma shots while in melee. You give up some chainsword bonus attacks but you gain more definite wounding ability. Edited July 16, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[The Fey Mallory]

Im fielding raptor units where the champion dual wields pistols and the special weapons are plasma guns. I find it to be a nice mix of range/melee capability. The guns allow you to kite melee targets from a safe distance from charges, while the pistols allow for 6 plasma shots (2 pistols and 2rapid fire guns) before charging + 2 plasma shots while in melee. You give up some chainsword bonus attacks but you gain more definite wounding ability.

I agree - a balance between guns and pistols is probably best. If you're using them with Warp Talons though, pistols are useful, as you can sit back and shoot into the Talons' fray, thereby supporting them more. If you shoot *before* the Talons charge, you risk increasing their charge range. so, my thinking is to drop them with the Talons, Talons charge (using CP re-roll, or sorcerer) whilst Raptors plasma another unit, then when the Talons are fighting (round 2 by this point), the sergeant fires his 2 plasma pistols into the fight. Can the Raptors then charge? Not because I think they'll do much damage, but because they reduce the enemy's Leadership by 1 (or add 1 to their morale roll - I can't remember which), thereby adding more support to the Warp Talons. Would that not add about 2-3 to the enemy losses overall, on top of the Talons'? hence even less enemies to hit back.

[The Fey Mallory]

Note on the Noise Marines: You'll kill an average of ~12 conscripts with them in CQC (only horde that triggers DttFE afaik).

 

Cheers!

I've only played one game against them, and they were heavy aided by ADMech. Is killing 12 good? Shame DttFE doesn't work on non-Imperium units, which makes me wonder how that goes for balance? If we play weaker against xenos, then does that mean that xeno armies play on a 'less aggressive' level to Imperium/CSM games? Or are Xeno's slightly more powerful than us because of our rule loss?

[Brother Aiwass]

 

Note on the Noise Marines: You'll kill an average of ~12 conscripts with them in CQC (only horde that triggers DttFE afaik).

 

Cheers!

I've only played one game against them, and they were heavy aided by ADMech. Is killing 12 good? Shame DttFE doesn't work on non-Imperium units, which makes me wonder how that goes for balance? If we play weaker against xenos, then does that mean that xeno armies play on a 'less aggressive' level to Imperium/CSM games? Or are Xeno's slightly more powerful than us because of our rule loss?

 

Well, is 12 good? Depends. If the conscript unit is at full strenght, which is 50, that leaves you with 38 conscripts+commissar that are going to have some words with you. If it's already maimed or the commissar is killed, then is better -specially if no commie, as that means more conscripts loses on the morale phase.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Did some of you guyz follow the (officials) leaks on Space marine codex ? I find it a great way to know better about this 8th edition and what we can expect for CSM.

 

For exemple, todays is Raven guard. I hope Night Lord will get different things but they may have some things in common : 

- CT is -1 to hit a Raven Guard units at 12" or more

- Unique stratagems : spend command points to infiltrate units at 9" or more of the ennemy. 

- Reroll failed charge roll.

 

If some of this boons get to Night Lord it can become naughty (reroll failed charge roll on warp talon/raptor as they can't get Khorn Icon ?)

Edited July 17, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing

[sanityimpaired]

 

...

I agree - a balance between guns and pistols is probably best. If you're using them with Warp Talons though, pistols are useful, as you can sit back and shoot into the Talons' fray, thereby supporting them more. If you shoot *before* the Talons charge, you risk increasing their charge range. so, my thinking is to drop them with the Talons, Talons charge (using CP re-roll, or sorcerer) whilst Raptors plasma another unit, then when the Talons are fighting (round 2 by this point), the sergeant fires his 2 plasma pistols into the fight. Can the Raptors then charge? Not because I think they'll do much damage, but because they reduce the enemy's Leadership by 1 (or add 1 to their morale roll - I can't remember which), thereby adding more support to the Warp Talons. Would that not add about 2-3 to the enemy losses overall, on top of the Talons'? hence even less enemies to hit back.

 

I was curious about this, so I checked the rules, and you cannot do that.

 

'A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit.  In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.'

 

So you can't shoot into combat unless you're within 1" of an enemy unit in said combat, and you can't get within 1" during movement.

[Praetoria]

Ran a unit of 7 in a tournament over the weekend with a terminator sorcerer casting warp time. Never failed to get them into combat even if i failed warp time, though i found their impact to be underwhelming.

 

Game 1 They charged 5 intercessors and killed 3, remaining two fell back and they were shot to death.

Game 2 They charged a unit of DE reaver jetbikes did one wound, reavers fell back and were shot to death.

Game 3 They charged a unit of tyrant guard and another unit (cant remember which one, venomthropes) lasted a few turns and killed a couple of models before being charged by warriors and dying.

Game 4 Charged a unit of two 5 man marine units which came out of a drop pod in my deployment, wiped them out over two turns with help from smite and eventually took out the drop pod as well. Eventually died charging vulcan, did a wound and died in combat.

Game 5 Charged a unit of chaos terminators that failed to charge my pred, wiped them out with help from smite and went on to multi charge two 5 man units of death guard.

 

Over coming toughness 5 was a massive issue for this unit and my opponents were making a lot of 5+ armour saves.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think your lack of success was because raptors are a mediocre melee unit. One base attack and no access to power weapons except for the aspiring champion just makes them normal chaos marines with jump packs, which is fairly mediocre compared to dedicated melee units like terminators, chosen and berserkers. Instead I think raptors are far better as a mobile weapons platform for melta/plasma as you can easily drop them within range of their target and withdraw and still shoot if engaged in melee. Still not the best unit but I've seen people use that build with success. 

[bozo69pd]

When I think of what assault units I want to charge into my horde of zombies raptors are at the top of my list. Everything is bubble wrapped with zombies ^ ^