Raptors,Warp talons and Jump pack tactics!

[Brother Aiwass]

Someone tried to pick them out of one of White Dwarf's preview pages using a magnifying glass and posted it before the EC focus went live.  He got that one right, so here's hoping the rest are correct.  I'll find the post for you.

 

Edit:  Here you go, this post: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337245-chaos-codex-release-date-8517/?p=4839037

Thanks IFF!

 

However, some people are arguing that those aren't correct and posting other stuff:

 

-Night lords: -1 to hit them with shooting if they're within 12"

-Iron warriors : no penalty for moving and shooting with heavy weapons, -1 model lost to moral to a minimum of 0

-Word Bearers : Reroll charge distences

-Emperors Children : Always strikes first

-Black legion : death to the false emperor activates on a 5 or 6 (4, 5 or 6 with icon of excess)

-World eaters : can advance and charge

-Alpha legion : When they advance in the fight phase they may advance in any direction they wish rather than towards the closest, even if it takes them out of combat.

 

Everything needs a lot of salt in the rumor mill, but tomorrow we'll see which one of the supposed IW traits is correct I guess :D

[Sception]

that list sounds like speculation/homebrew, particularly as it lacks the trait for renegade chapters entirely.

[Khornestar]

That's 3 totally different traits for World Eaters that I've seen now. Can't wait to find out if any are correct.

[Azekai]

 

-Alpha legion : When they advance in the fight phase they may advance in any direction they wish rather than towards the closest, even if it takes them out of combat.

 

If that is being quoted verbatim, it seems kind of suspect to me. You advance during the move phase, and at the end of fight phase you consolidate. Different terms for different actions that I doubt GW would confuse. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Well thats confusing.  I REALLY hope the black legion one is not that; its wonderful having a unique trait that works....not at all against a huge portion of armies in the game >_>; 

[Panzer]

That's 3 totally different traits for World Eaters that I've seen now. Can't wait to find out if any are correct.

Especially because any of the three wouldn't be bad at all. :D

Tho it feels like the list posted above by Brother Aiwass is someone speculating instead of an actual leak/rumour/whatever.

[Brother Aiwass]

that list sounds like speculation/homebrew, particularly as it lacks the trait for renegade chapters entirely.

 

 

 

That's 3 totally different traits for World Eaters that I've seen now. Can't wait to find out if any are correct.

Especially because any of the three wouldn't be bad at all.

Tho it feels like the list posted above by Brother Aiwass is someone speculating instead of an actual leak/rumour/whatever.

 

I hope you're right, because the NL trait sucks compared to the morale debuff. IW, WB & WE are cool tho.

 

 

 

-Alpha legion : When they advance in the fight phase they may advance in any direction they wish rather than towards the closest, even if it takes them out of combat.

 

If that is being quoted verbatim, it seems kind of suspect to me. You advance during the move phase, and at the end of fight phase you consolidate. Different terms for different actions that I doubt GW would confuse. 

 

I suspect that is referring to pile in but who knows?

 

About what time are we expecting the IW focus?  Can't wait to check this out!

[Daionosis]

The Morale debuff is so strong! Loved the new NL traits in combination with raptors! I do hope the Talons will get a buff as well, otherwise I will be hard pressed to take them.. Even though I justconverted up two units!

Edited August 3, 2017 by Daionosis

[Galron]

The released NL abilities combined with finding out I have at least 15 warp talons built(10 from 30k), 5 raptors in a melta oriented squad and three more boxes of raptors made me change my mind on dropping Night Lords out of my roster and placing them elsewhere. Here is what I was thinking.

Lord jump pack and claw relic

Sorceror Lord jumpack warp time

Lord  jumppack

 

Troops

Chaos marines x5 special weapon of some sort

Chaos marines x5 special weapon of some sort

Chaos marines x10 or 20 depending on points

 

havocs with 4 ACs(used to be volkites)

 

Contemtor Mortis twin kheres

Fire Raptor Maybe, might be too costly in the list at 400+ points for me to include other stuff

 

Warp talons x10 or 15

Raptors x5 2 MGs plasma pistol, Fist(its already on the model)

Raptors x5 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol, power sword

Raptors x5 2 MGs plasma pistol, power sword Sword

Raptors x5 2 flamers, plasma pistol/maybe combi flamer, sword For either taking on hordes or protecting the back line

Furies x? I didn't know they even in this edition til I read this thread. I wonder if them make models for them still?

[Daionosis]

I think WT will get some new lease on life with all the combos you can stack with them. Lightning claws with VotLW are no joke and that overwatch negation should be good to assassinate something on turn one. After their initial assault they're probably going to die, but then, does that really matter?

 

For other assault troops I am going to take raptors with melta guns or raptors with plasma guns, give them the MoS aan shoot twice at stuff you really need to have dead.  

[Lord Asvaldir]

Can't take furies in a night lords detachment anyway, everything must have the night lords keyword. You'd need a separate detachment for daemons.

 

Fire raptor on top of all those raptors and marines sounds tough. Might be better to go for a cheap heavy support choice like a pred or more havocs.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Unless you summon said furies.  Keywords only count during army construction, so if you summon the daemons to the table mid-game, you won't magically lose your Legion Traits.

[Purifying Tempest]

We've been play testing a good bit with Raptors, and have really liked the value of them currently.

 

5 Raptor Squad with either Combi-Plasma + Plasma Guns or melta equivalents depending on what you want your army to do.  Plasma do a number on elite Infantry style things that don't have really strong invulnerability saves.  Melta squads can flip over tanks or stray heroes who get a little too far from their friends.

 

What we've been considering lately is take 1 of each type of Raptor squad (Plasma and Melta), and even a squad of Warp Talons if the points allow.  Drop all three with a support Chaos Lord and/or Sorcerer with Jump Packs.  Now you have access to Warp Time, Prescience, or the new spell that can strip invulnerable saves.  There's also Veterans of the Long War, and even the Cacophony stratagem with Slaanesh (my friend is a big Emperor's Children player... could say he is excessive about it...).

 

Any unit of jump troops coming down behind the opponent is likely to get slapped hard, so going minimal and elite style allows you to maximize the payload and minimize the cost.  130 point unit carving out 130-150 points isn't bad if you keep it small and elite.  It can take that back the turn it comes down.  But 200+ raptor squads?  Hard to make up those last points without surviving a couple of turns (good luck!).

 

Also, never underestimate the value of Fly.  Makes dual plasma pistols feel worthless, though really fun for fluff.

 

I could be totally out of the park here, but we've had great success using them as a counter unit.  One that can affect your opponent's deployment and first couple of turns... without even being on the table.  And can definitely punish someone who doesn't keep a keen eye on their positioning.  I left the smallest of spots... just large enough for 5 raptors to squeeze in, and they were like within 1/4" closer to Ahriman than anything else... poof, -160 points for my effort (was on a disk).  Raptors immediately got dusted next turn for their efforts, but still... denying me Ahriman was much bigger than losing his raptors!  See it frequently with them, too. :)

[Daionosis]

I feel like Warp Talons got a whole lot better in the new codex, as long as they are suitably buffed by psychic powers and/or stratagems. So I was trying to figure out what mark to give them. The easy answer was Khorne to let them attack twice for cp, but when I realised that happens at the end of the combat phase that would mean they'd get slaughtered anyway and the remaining 3-5 WT would not be worth the 3 cp. As raptors benefit from the MoN for that lovely standard which adds an extra -LD, they are getting the MoN. Shooty units get the MoS for the extra shots, and in order to 'balance' the marks I thought, let's give the WT the MoT. But I felt the 4+ invulnerable would only good when fired at by lascannons, so I figured, let's do the math and be certain!

 

40 Boltershots fired at ten WT (T4 save of 3+/5+):
No buffs: 4,444 wounds.
Nurgle psychic power (-1 to hit): 3,333 wounds
Slaanesh psychic power (5+ FNP):2,963 wounds

Tzeentch psychic power (4+ inv): 4,444 wounds

 

20 plasmashots

No:5,926 wounds
N: 4,444 wounds
S: 3,531 wounds
T: 4,444 wounds

20 overcharged plasma shots
No: 7,407
N: 5,556
S: 6,584
T: 5,556

 

12 titanic feet attacks
No: 4,444
N: 3,333
S: 3,951
T: 3,333

 

4 lascannon

No: 1,481

N:1,111
S: 1,300 (just about, couldn't figure out how to do the ramdom damage and the FNP's but it'll be a bit less than no buffs)
T: 1,111 wounds

 

So basically there is no difference between Nurgle or Tzeentch marks, except when shot at in large numbers, then the Nurgle buffs are better. Looks like all of my jumppacks get the MoN now!

[OnboardG1]

I've struggled a bit with 5 Warp Talons the last few games, but they've all been against eldar where they either feel like they're wasted because they're slaughtering cheap guardians or they get squashed because they can't stack up against dedicated CC units. I tried to assassinate an archon and it didn't end well. I think if I play against more marines and armies with generalist units they might shine a bit more. 

[SyNidus]

I'm using 10 Warp Talons accompanied by a jump pack sorc for warp time. So far they've been pretty fantastic in my night lords army.

 

If i encounter a screen i have enough firepower with my oblits and raptor squads to be able to clear it in one turn before my warp talons drop in. I need more games with this army though.

 

My list:

Outrider Detachment:

Lord - JP, Claws of Black Hunt, MoK - 105

Raptors - 5 man - 2 Melta, PFist, Plasma Pistol, MoN, IoD - 148

Raptors - 5 man - 2 Melta, PFist, Plasma Pistol, MoN, IoD - 148

Raptors - 5 man - 2 Plasma, PFist, Plasma Pistol, MoN, IoD - 140

Warp Talons - 10 man - MoK - 270

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Obliterators - 3 man - MoS - 195

Obliterators - 3 man - MoS - 195

- 1275

 

Outrider Detachment:

Sorceror - Jump Pack, Force Sword, Combi-Bolter, MoT - 130

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Chaos Spawn - 1 man - 33

Obliterators - 3 man - MoS - 195

Heldrake - Baleflamer, Claws, MoK - 185

710

 

Total: 1983

Model Count: 45

CP: 5

 

 

I don't know whether i should just swap out the pfists on my raptors to combi weapons though. They seem too small for me to really want to assault with.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SyNidus

[the jeske]

Isn't it a bit counter productive to have a alfa strike/assault army with so many units, that almost garentee you will never have turn 1?

[SyNidus]

Isn't it a bit counter productive to have a alfa strike/assault army with so many units, that almost garentee you will never have turn 1?

 

One would think so, but because i'm able to keep everything valuable in reserve whilst also having a fairly easily concealable ground force, i don't mind going second as much. Going first would be ideal of course, but going second is not too bad. Perhaps even advantageous in the right circumstances.

[Trevak Dal]

Indeed. My Tau loved going second. Really set things up for that Kauyon/Montka thing. Just roll some Klendathu drop as my horde of suits descend "on the bounce" and make the bad sphess mahrines go away.

 

*Sigh*. I memba when I could kill all the primarchs, and dance around the battlefield, controlling the Battle space with superior technology. :(

[Panzer]

Indeed. My Tau loved going second. Really set things up for that Kauyon/Montka thing. Just roll some Klendathu drop as my horde of suits descend "on the bounce" and make the bad sphess mahrines go away.

 

*Sigh*. I memba when I could kill all the primarchs, and dance around the battlefield, controlling the Battle space with superior technology.

Good times. :(

[Daionosis]

 

Isn't it a bit counter productive to have a alfa strike/assault army with so many units, that almost garentee you will never have turn 1?

 

One would think so, but because i'm able to keep everything valuable in reserve whilst also having a fairly easily concealable ground force, i don't mind going second as much. Going first would be ideal of course, but going second is not too bad. Perhaps even advantageous in the right circumstances.

 

I'm curious as to why you've chosen to go with spawn instead of cultists. I mean spawn seem to be surprisingly good, but are they really better than 10 obsec guys which give you more CP? 

 

Back on topic though, I ran three squads with three melta guns last big tournament I went to and they never seemed to perform well enough for me so I'm thinking of going all plasma next and putting the nurgle banners back in. It's cheaper and more reliable, though I might change my mind when my dudes start exploding left and right! On the Talons, I feel like they're mainly there to tie stuff up and not let them shoot next turn, not really to kill stuff. At the moment I think things like heldrakes might be better suited for that as they're also big fire magnets and are better against flyers (which were my main weakness).

[the jeske]

 

Isn't it a bit counter productive to have a alfa strike/assault army with so many units, that almost garentee you will never have turn 1?

 

One would think so, but because i'm able to keep everything valuable in reserve whilst also having a fairly easily concealable ground force, i don't mind going second as much. Going first would be ideal of course, but going second is not too bad. Perhaps even advantageous in the right circumstances.

 

Cool. nice that it works, specially vs alfa strike armies that don't run 3+ alfa strike units and maybe are more on the elite side.

[OnboardG1]

 

 

Isn't it a bit counter productive to have a alfa strike/assault army with so many units, that almost garentee you will never have turn 1?

 

One would think so, but because i'm able to keep everything valuable in reserve whilst also having a fairly easily concealable ground force, i don't mind going second as much. Going first would be ideal of course, but going second is not too bad. Perhaps even advantageous in the right circumstances.

 

I'm curious as to why you've chosen to go with spawn instead of cultists. I mean spawn seem to be surprisingly good, but are they really better than 10 obsec guys which give you more CP? 

 

Back on topic though, I ran three squads with three melta guns last big tournament I went to and they never seemed to perform well enough for me so I'm thinking of going all plasma next and putting the nurgle banners back in. It's cheaper and more reliable, though I might change my mind when my dudes start exploding left and right! On the Talons, I feel like they're mainly there to tie stuff up and not let them shoot next turn, not really to kill stuff. At the moment I think things like heldrakes might be better suited for that as they're also big fire magnets and are better against flyers (which were my main weakness).

 

 

My guess is it's to stack an additional -1Ld aura. If you hit them with the raptors and the spawn, plus a character then they're at -6Ld. Does the Lord have Lord of Terror?

Edited November 29, 2017 by OnboardG1

[Daionosis]

well sure, but do you need 8 spawn for that? Cultists are <night lords> too, spawn are not and there're not that many legion units in the army you want to have near the opponent. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

My guess is it's to stack an additional -1Ld aura. If you hit them with the raptors and the spawn, plus a character then they're at -6Ld. Does the Lord have Lord of Terror?

 

 

Spawn are beasts so they don't get legion traits. Only point in having lots of units of spawn is to hope your opponent wastes shots on overkill.