8th Ed BA Tactica.

[LutherMax]

So just to confirm, do you have to attack with the chainsword to get the extra attack with the chainsword?

[CaptainHelion]

Yes.

[Paikis]

So just to confirm, do you have to attack with the chainsword to get the extra attack with the chainsword?

 

This is how I have interpretted the rule and how my local GW plays it.

[Charlo]

 

So just to confirm, do you have to attack with the chainsword to get the extra attack with the chainsword?

 

This is how I have interpreted the rule and how my local GW plays it.

 

Yes because that is the correct answer :P

[LutherMax]

I'm glad we got that sorted :D

[Arkhanist]

 I'm not convinced, for RAW anyway. Look at other melee weapon rules:

 

thunder hammer: "When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract 1 from the hit roll."

lightning claw: "You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon."

salamanders gauntlet of the forge: "This weapon automatically hits its target."

They all specify you have to attack with that specific weapon to apply the rule.

 

Why not say for chainswords etc "When attacking with this weapon, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon per fight", or something like that.

 

They specifically only say "Each time the bearer fights". You go through the fight phase, pick a power sword or thunder hammer etc, so you're fulfilling the various fight phase rules, so you can now take advantage of this rule. It just tells you that the extra attack is with that weapon profile.

 

Take mount weapons (space wolves crushing teeth and claws) and compare:

"After a model on this mount makes its close combat attacks, you can attack with its mount. Make 3 additional attacks, using this weapon profile."

"Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

"If a model is armed with two lightning claws, each time it fights it can make 1 additional attack with them."

 

Surely we're not going to argue the rider has to make any of his attacks using the mount profile to get the additional attacks using the mount profile.

Similarly, a bearer of a chainsword then doesn't have to make any of his attacks using the chainsword profile, they are just an additional attack with that weapon (using the chainsword profile).

Edited July 19, 2017 by Arkhanist

[DemonGSides]

 I'm not convinced, for RAW anyway. Look at other melee weapon rules:

 

thunder hammer: "When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract 1 from the hit roll."

lightning claw: "You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon."

salamanders gauntlet of the forge: "This weapon automatically hits its target."

They all specify you have to attack with that specific weapon to apply the rule.

 

Why not say for chainswords etc "When attacking with this weapon, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon per fight", or something like that.

 

They specifically only say "Each time the bearer fights". You go through the fight phase, pick a power sword or thunder hammer etc, so you're fulfilling the various fight phase rules, so you can now take advantage of this rule. It just tells you that the extra attack is with that weapon profile.

 

Take mount weapons (space wolves crushing teeth and claws) and compare:

"After a model on this mount makes its close combat attacks, you can attack with its mount. Make 3 additional attacks, using this weapon profile."

"Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

"If a model is armed with two lightning claws, each time it fights it can make 1 additional attack with them."

 

Surely we're not going to argue the rider has to make any of his attacks using the mount profile to get the additional attacks using the mount profile.

Similarly, a bearer of a chainsword then doesn't have to make any of his attacks using the chainsword profile, they are just an additional attack with that weapon (using the chainsword profile).

 

This is how I was reading it as well.  I don't know if I approve of the condescension in previous posts, but I have read the rules and I have the same reservations as above.  It doesn't say "When attacking with a chainsword, you get one extra attack."  It says "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

 

It doesn't say "Fights with a chainsword".  Just says Fights.

[Charlo]

It's poor wording, sure, but there is no way in hell that you get to just make an extra attack just for having a chainsword strapped to their back.

[Damon Nightman]

Why? I'd say normal logic isn't involved here... RAW, I think they have a point.

[Charlo]

Mort says it better than I do:

 

 

 

 

On a different note has anyone tried D.C. (Or other units) with Power weapon + chainsword? Forgo Shooting for more choppiness.

I'm thinking D.C. w/ power sword + chainswords:

Gives you 2x/3x S- AP-3 attacks plus a "free" S- AP- attack as well....


...right?

Wording says "each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon." So does that mean you have to make at least 1 attack in order to get the 2nd? Or is it truly a "free" additional attack?

 

I read it as an extra free attack with that weapon.  So your first 2 attacks are with the Power Sword, then your 3rd free attack is your chainsword.

 

How you fight in combat is explained in the rulebook.  So, the chainsword rule cues the fight rule, which you then reference.  This is further supported by the second clause "it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon" - referencing the rule that you need to attack with a weapon when you fight.  

 

We cant apply this stuff out of context.  

 

 

But, I'd take it over to the OR forum instead of us filling two pages now :P

[LutherMax]

Yeah, to be honest having seen those quotes and comparisons it does sound as though the initial attacks can be with any weapon, and only the extra attack must be with the chainsword.

 

Edit, agree with Charlo, we should move this to the OR...

Edited July 19, 2017 by LutherMax

[Sawtooth]

Has anyone had luck with 5 man scout squads? I've used snipers a few times but I mean just barebones scouts. I find the infiltrate very useful for messing with enemy deepstrike and general havoc, but I'm not sure how best to equip them (bolters, shotguns, pistol/cc). I avoid heavy weapons and camo cloaks.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The smallest I ran was 7man (Combat Blade and BP) scouts once, usually I have 9... but pretty much every time they have exceeded expectation. The +1 attack from the blade is so nice in a game where that's not as prevalent anymore and the special deployment rules are excellent.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Chainsword & Pistol Scouts are alright.

 

I had a lot of fun playing Shotgun Scouts. Just 5 guys with shotguns which I think are superior to CQC scouts. Because Str 5.

They also seem to force my opponent to do dumb things to get at them when I am hiding them and camping a zone of control.

 

Bolter Scouts are happy objective grabbers and compete directly with both above as the sit and shoot version.

 

Keep scouts cheap and expendable is my advice. Use those upgrade points on something decent.

Power sword are 4pts, but make sure all your veteran sgts have one before your scout sgt is what I mean.

 

Snipers - See Raven Guard ;)

Just Kidding.

Mostly... =)

[Sawtooth]

Well snipers are a different beast entirely, I'm just interested in how people run standard squads. Although curiously, in any configuration, I just do not find camo cloaks worth the cost.

[DemonGSides]

It's poor wording, sure, but there is no way in hell that you get to just make an extra attack just for having a chainsword strapped to their back.

 

You can't just assume the codex or rulebooks has poor writing, or else we can start fudging a whole bunch of rules.

[Mackenzie]

So I posted this list in my army list thread but I figured I would share it here too.

 

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [52 PL, 1017pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Select Chapter: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 133pts]: Combi-plasma, Jump Pack, Thunder hammer

 

+ Elites +

 

Company Veterans [10 PL, 177pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield

 

Company Veterans [10 PL, 184pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-plasma, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-melta

. Veteran Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Storm shield

 

Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 212pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Meltagun, Smoke launchers

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin assault cannon, Twin multi-melta

. Two hurricane bolters: 2x Hurricane bolter

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [23 PL, 399pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [5 PL, 81pts]: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Squad [6 PL, 106pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Regular wargear: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. 2x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Assault Squad [6 PL, 106pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Regular wargear: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. 2x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Assault Squad [6 PL, 106pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Regular wargear: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. 2x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

. Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [25 PL, 584pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Select Chapter: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 74pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad [7 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Space Marine: Lascannon

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

 

Devastator Squad [7 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Space Marine: Lascannon

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

 

Devastator Squad [7 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Space Marine: Lascannon

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine: Missile launcher

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

 

++ Total: [100 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

It's a pretty straight forward alpha strike style list. I have a nasty spearhead gun line and use the Stormraven and vets to press flanks then use my RAS to secure objectives and mop up. I like it pretty well. I think this is what I will stick with until we get our dex.

[Panzer]

Okay so I was a bit absent from this subforum since all the new threads in the news subforum and re-learning my T'au was pretty overwhelming. :P

 

Just one thing: It's kind of funny how I was building my Knights of Blood mainly with Vanguard Vets with Stormshields (and power weapons but that aside) which everyone considered a waste of points and now they are one of the best Jump Pack CC units we have as far as I can see. Just saying. :D

[Panzer]

Mort says it better than I do:

 

 

 

 

On a different note has anyone tried D.C. (Or other units) with Power weapon + chainsword? Forgo Shooting for more choppiness.

 

I'm thinking D.C. w/ power sword + chainswords:

 

Gives you 2x/3x S- AP-3 attacks plus a "free" S- AP- attack as well....

 

 

...right?

 

Wording says "each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon." So does that mean you have to make at least 1 attack in order to get the 2nd? Or is it truly a "free" additional attack?

 

I read it as an extra free attack with that weapon.  So your first 2 attacks are with the Power Sword, then your 3rd free attack is your chainsword.

 

How you fight in combat is explained in the rulebook.  So, the chainsword rule cues the fight rule, which you then reference.  This is further supported by the second clause "it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon" - referencing the rule that you need to attack with a weapon when you fight.  

 

We cant apply this stuff out of context.  

 

 

But, I'd take it over to the OR forum instead of us filling two pages now

Just a quick note: the FAQ tells us that if a model is equipped with two Chainswords it gets two additional attacks which both must be made with those chainsword. It nowhere mentions that any of the base attacks have to be made with any of those Chainswords so I'd say it indicates that you get those additional (chainsword-) attacks even if you fight with a Powerweapon.

[Boudan]

Chainsword & Pistol Scouts are alright.

 

I had a lot of fun playing Shotgun Scouts. Just 5 guys with shotguns which I think are superior to CQC scouts. Because Str 5.

They also seem to force my opponent to do dumb things to get at them when I am hiding them and camping a zone of control.

 

Bolter Scouts are happy objective grabbers and compete directly with both above as the sit and shoot version.

 

Keep scouts cheap and expendable is my advice. Use those upgrade points on something decent.

Power sword are 4pts, but make sure all your veteran sgts have one before your scout sgt is what I mean.

 

Snipers - See Raven Guard

Just Kidding.

Mostly... =)

 

Can you expand on your thoughts regarding sniper scouts? In my limited opportunities to play, I've found myself dearly wishing for sniper support.  The units are not expensive, can target HQs and can fill troop slots.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Boudan

[Silverson]

I think he means if you going to bring sniper scouts then just bring them as ravenguard so they get the -1 to hit benefit from raven guard chapter tactic.

 

The down side is not receiving blood angel buffs but the benefit is very impressive for a unit that is quite self sufficient unit.

 

Obviously your army would be based of imperium keyword (or astartes if there is one)

[Arkhanist]

The codex isn't out yet, so it's not known for sure what the requirements are going to be for chapter tactics to apply. It's been strongly hinted that all of them only apply to infantry, bikes and dreads of that chapter. It's also possible that the detachment might have to be entirely of that chapter too - and that is likely going to be necessary for chapter specific strategems. Not that the latter matters much until we get our codex, but it's worth bearing in mind until we see the SM codex detail.

 

If the requirements are quite lax though, it's going to be hard to resist painting some salamanders or raven guard allies for the shooty part of my army!

[Sawtooth]

I use my snipers as terror weapons and opportunists. Infiltrate them to a favorable firing position and just dare an enemy to poke something interesting into view. If I can snipe an enemy character that's great, but my opponents are rarely so foolish as to leave one in line of sight. I get much more mileage nailing special weapons, sergeants, stuff like that. It makes a 36" zone that forces my enemy to maneuver very carefully. However, they tend to go down fast once focused on, hence my dubious opinion of camo cloaks.

[Charlo]

To get chapter tactics the entire detatchment needs to be of one chapter. That means anything in that unit can use/ benefit from the unique strategems too.

 

This is all confirmed from Warhammer Fest when I asked them questions :)

 

....But also I think said in a community article somewhere.... maybe

[The Unseen]

On the chainsword thing, nothing in either the rule itself or the FAQ that I could find say or imply anything that you have to make a "base" attack with a chainsword to get the bonus one. If a model has a chainsword, it gets to make 1 additional attack per chainsword with the chainsword profile. Simple as that. So a sergeant with a power sword and chainsword could do 2 power sword swings and 1 chainsword swing, 1 and 2, or all 3 as a chainsword if he wanted to. Seem's perfectly reasonable too, because to do anything silly like that, you have to give up your pistol, which means you come out the same either way.

 

Anyway, sniper scouts seem pretty bad actually. 9 sniper scouts with cloaks costs 162 pts, and manage to cause a piddling 1 wound+1 mortal wound to a marine character. Of which the weakest that I can think of has 3. Take Intercessors instead, they have the same armor save in cover, or a better one in the open plus a second wound, and an ap mod on your gun if you really want a "cheap but still doing something" unit to sit on the backfield. Even without the cloaks, their still 15 pts a model, which is just 1 pt less than a veteran marine in power armor, and I know which one I'd rather have. Other armies *Cough* Guard *Cough* can take snipers super cheap, which lets you get enough of them on the table to actually start killing those buffing characters in a reasonable time-frame, but we aren't guard.

 

Or be a real Blood Angel and give your scouts shotguns/ccw and take the fight to the enemy like a proper Angel, and make good use of being able to set-up 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. Any who survive have obviously earned their promotions.