8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Nova_chron]

What do people think about storm bolter chain sword company vets as a cheapish body guard unit for Seth in a FT army or should I give them special weapons instead?

 

I'm starting with a shooty 1000 point core before I start adding hard CQC units

[bc99]

...I get much more mileage nailing special weapons, sergeants, stuff like that. It makes a 36" zone that forces my enemy to maneuver very carefully. However, they tend to go down fast once focused on, hence my dubious opinion of camo cloaks.

 

You can't target specific models, correct? Or have I been playing it wrong? You can't, for instance, pick a sgt. or special weapon to shoot. I thought you could only target characters (or a unit), but not specific models in the unit.

 

I've just started playing again and don't have the rules with me.

 

Thanks for clarification.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Regarding the sniper scouts - They are decent but not incredibly amazing.

The mere fact they can mortal wound a char causes target priority issues for your opponent.

Their power is sometimes more in the effort the enemy uses trying to dislodge them I feel.

 

I do think think Raven Guard chapter tactic makes better snipers yes.

 

But I mostly meant this from The Unseen regarding Raven Guard snipers:

"Or be a real Blood Angel and give your scouts shotguns/ccw and take the fight to the enemy like a proper Angel, and make good use of being able to set-up 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. Any who survive have obviously earned their promotions."

 

Boomstick scouts are fun, fluffy and effective for 55 points. I prefer my CQC points elsewhere.

They are totally worth 55pts. Their deployment ability is seriously golden for us depending on what you are doing.

Shotguns do good work and punch well above their cost.

At 9+ inches a combi melta sgt starts looking good, but mostly I have run them just all shotguns.

 

I haven't had a lot of chance to play recently because summertime.

Around release the shotgun scouts were awesome with a cherry on top hehheh.

My friends were kinda bummed by the running shotgun battle amongst the hills, rocks & walls on our table.

They also didn't care for the 19+ inch rough circle where they could not deepstrike.

I was running 3 units of 5. =)

 

My current untested Battalion use a sniper, a bolter, and a shotgun squad. Threaten and Hold, Hold and Opportunity, Forward Control and Threaten.

The first unit to get adjusted when I hunt points is dropping the snipers to shotguns. But they are in the list for now too.

More I think about it snipers are prolly out for a couple combi-melta sgts in my shotgun squads.

Shotguns scouts are just pretty flex troops.

 

Lets see what the space marine codex says for sure on detachments and alot of things really =)

Edited July 20, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[LutherMax]

 

...I get much more mileage nailing special weapons, sergeants, stuff like that. It makes a 36" zone that forces my enemy to maneuver very carefully. However, they tend to go down fast once focused on, hence my dubious opinion of camo cloaks.

 

 

You can't target specific models, correct? Or have I been playing it wrong? You can't, for instance, pick a sgt. or special weapon to shoot. I thought you could only target characters (or a unit), but not specific models in the unit.

 

I've just started playing again and don't have the rules with me.

 

Thanks for clarification.

That's correct bc99 - the sniper rifle rule is just that you can target Characters even when they're not the closest unit. Your opponent still chooses which models to apply wounds to in other units.

[Sawtooth]

 

 

...I get much more mileage nailing special weapons, sergeants, stuff like that. It makes a 36" zone that forces my enemy to maneuver very carefully. However, they tend to go down fast once focused on, hence my dubious opinion of camo cloaks.

 

You can't target specific models, correct? Or have I been playing it wrong? You can't, for instance, pick a sgt. or special weapon to shoot. I thought you could only target characters (or a unit), but not specific models in the unit.

 

I've just started playing again and don't have the rules with me.

 

Thanks for clarification.

That's correct bc99 - the sniper rifle rule is just that you can target Characters even when they're not the closest unit. Your opponent still chooses which models to apply wounds to in other units.

 

Ick, I hate realizing I've been playing incorrectly. <throws sniper rifles in the garbage> I guess I'm done with those :( I'm glad you guys caught that, at least.

[LutherMax]

Don't sweat it – that's how they worked in 7th. We're all new to 8th

[Boudan]

"This weapon may target a CHARACTER even if it is not the closest enemy unit. If you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to its normal damage."

 

Edit: didn't catch that the question was answered. I still think this rule as-is, gives scouts more than situational value. Both games I've had the pleasure of playing so far have had 3 characters per side.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Boudan

[Jorre]

I like my sniper scouts.... but i do feel they are a little over costed! But only just

[dakkamasta]

I was really excited for them until i ran 2 squads and was appalled at their inability to do anything useful. 10 snipers could hardly scratch a chaos sorcerer on a bike, for the points it's honestly really bad.

 

The problem is that despite inflicting mortal wounds, it's only one wound. Most characters now have a minimum of four wounds, which means statistically you would need 24 hits at that target to inflict 4 mortal wounds. I know they can do normal wounds too but considering it's essentially a bolter shot per model i would never expect something like that to reliably kill my target.

 

As others have said, for far less points you can take shotguns which will do more damage and can take positions and put pressure on the enemy. It really sucks though as I was so hyped for snipers being good again but they just don't deliver.

Edited July 21, 2017 by dakkamasta

[redshadow]

A pure blood angel's list came 4th overall in the individual standings at the ATC tournament..

 

5 stormravens

Dante

Captain with jump pack/power axe/storm bolter

X3 5 man combat scout squads

Edited July 21, 2017 by redshadow

[dakkamasta]

A pure blood angel's list came 4th overall in the individual standings at the ATC tournament..

 

5 stormravens

Dante

Captain with jump pack/power axe/storm bolter

X3 5 man combat scout squads

To be fair, Dante is the only thing in that list that really represents Blood Angels. Really that should be called a Red Stormraven list lol. Edited July 21, 2017 by dakkamasta

[Morticon]

A pure blood angel's list came 4th overall in the individual standings at the ATC tournament..

 

5 stormravens

Dante

Captain with jump pack/power axe/storm bolter

X3 5 man combat scout squads

Yeah, hardly a BA list I'm afraid.  And also the second time a flyer spam "BA" list has won a big tourney.

 

That's just  a "Lets abuse Dante's 12" move and bubble" list. 

 

Well done to the player, but lists like those play themselves and are indicative of the issues of 8th.  

[LutherMax]

And it wasn't even a podium finish

[Spagunk]

Not to be a problem but I am always under the assumption that you have to use a piece of wargear to gain its benefits. For instance, I have to have a model equipped with a death mask (except named characters) to get its benefit. So to me, I have to use the chain sword to gain its benefit. Otherwise it is like saying "I have a lightning claw equipped so my chainsword attacks reroll to wound".

 

I don't think it is written down since I believe the rules writer assumed everyone knows you have to use an item to gain its benefits.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Spagunk

[The Unseen]

Not to be a problem but I am always under the assumption that you have to use a piece of wargear to gain its benefits. For instance, I have to have a model equipped with a death mask (except named characters) to get its benefit. So to me, I have to use the chain sword to gain its benefit. Otherwise it is like saying "I have a lightning claw equipped so my chainsword attacks reroll to wound".

 

I don't think it is written down since I believe the rules writer assumed everyone knows you have to use an item to gain its benefits.

Except the rules for the lightning claw explicitly state that you get to reroll failed to wound when you use the claw, not any other time.

If it instead said, a model equipped with this weapon may reroll all failed to wound, you wouldn't need to use it, you would just always reroll to wound.

 

What about this is so hard?

 

Does the model have a chainsword?

If yes, make 1 extra attack with that chainsword whenever that model fights.

No more, no less.

 

It's base attacks don't matter in the slightest, because the rule doesn't say "when you use this weapon, do or gain x"

Like all the other weapons with weird rules do, it says if equipped.

 

If for some reason you found a way to give a freaking bastion a chainsword, a model with 0 base attacks, in the fight phase, by the Emperor that bastion would get 1 attack with that chainsword.

[dakkamasta]

Yea I'm quite surprised this got debated for so long. It's very clearly worded.

[LutherMax]

Having seen the arguments I concur that RAW (and it seems RAI) you don't have to use the chainsword to get the extra attack, but the extra attack itself does have to be with the chainsword.

[Spagunk]

 

Not to be a problem but I am always under the assumption that you have to use a piece of wargear to gain its benefits. For instance, I have to have a model equipped with a death mask (except named characters) to get its benefit. So to me, I have to use the chain sword to gain its benefit. Otherwise it is like saying "I have a lightning claw equipped so my chainsword attacks reroll to wound".

 

I don't think it is written down since I believe the rules writer assumed everyone knows you have to use an item to gain its benefits.

Except the rules for the lightning claw explicitly state that you get to reroll failed to wound when you use the claw, not any other time.

If it instead said, a model equipped with this weapon may reroll all failed to wound, you wouldn't need to use it, you would just always reroll to wound.

 

What about this is so hard?

 

Does the model have a chainsword?

If yes, make 1 extra attack with that chainsword whenever that model fights.

No more, no less.

 

It's base attacks don't matter in the slightest, because the rule doesn't say "when you use this weapon, do or gain x"

Like all the other weapons with weird rules do, it says if equipped.

 

If for some reason you found a way to give a freaking bastion a chainsword, a model with 0 base attacks, in the fight phase, by the Emperor that bastion would get 1 attack with that chainsword.

 

 

Because some of us are neuro divergent and probably get confused by RAW and RAI with regards to this game?

 

Common Sense is neither common or make sense. Please don't assume that just because you think it is clear, it is clear for someone else.

[Jolemai]

Any chance we can get back in topic please? This isn't a thread about chainsword.

 

(Also, I'm out right now but when I get back I'll be happy to punt it all over to the OR if you really need to continue thus discussion)

[Arkhanist]

Not to be a problem but I am always under the assumption that you have to use a piece of wargear to gain its benefits. For instance, I have to have a model equipped with a death mask (except named characters) to get its benefit. So to me, I have to use the chain sword to gain its benefit. Otherwise it is like saying "I have a lightning claw equipped so my chainsword attacks reroll to wound".

 

I'm not going to repeat the clear differences in wording between lightning claws et al and the chainsword I made a page back, or the similarity to mounts. The death mask though, that rather contradicts your own argument.

 

You don't have to DO anything with a death mask to take advantage of its ability. 'Wearing' it is sufficient - it's a passive aura.

 

Obviously a model doesn't get the benefit of a death mask if it doesn't have one. Nor does a model get the benefit of a chainsword if it doesn't have one - you get the options on the datasheet that you pay for that you're allowed. Nobody is arguing otherwise. But the rule for chainswords et al say you merely have to be its 'bearer' to get an additional attack with it when you fight - just as you only have to be the 'wearer' of a death mask.

 

Now, if they'd said "Each time the bearer fights with this weapon..." or similar, like they do for several other weapon abilities, then yes, you'd need to make a normal attack with the chainsword to get the additional attack. But they didn't, and absent an errata/FAQ or clearly absurd result (which this isn't), I go with RAW. This particular rule is used for quite a few different bits of wargear, so its no misprint.

 

For what its worth in OR (where this argument should move to) all the examples I could find of this question (such as the cultist knife) conclude the same, that it's just an additional attack with that weapon profile if you have it, no other requirements.

 

edit: Sorry, Jolemai, I didn't preview so didn't see your post. I for one would be happy to have all the posts on this issue spun off to an OR thread, as it does seem to keep being resurrected.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I've run 10 sniper scouts with camo in all my games so far. Planted in cover they're hard to kill. I've learned to get them up a level after they spent one entire game being assaulted by a rhino.

 

Pretty much they always do work turn 1, then people get scared and focus a lot of shooting at them, and with a 2+ save that's not a bad thing. There are so many characters in the game now they always seemed to have a target.

 

They are expensive but they're a great distraction and if I kill one apothecary or ancient or warlord, that are otherwise tough to target now, I feel pretty good about them.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[LutherMax]

they spent one entire game being assaulted by a rhino.

Hilarious when taken out of context :D

[Indefragable]

 

they spent one entire game being assaulted by a rhino.

Hilarious when taken out of context :D

Mental image = :o

 

Actually still tame by the standards of 40k.

 

 

+++++

 

I think the key to sniper scouts is to plink off wounds from things. Some math genius can figure out the probability of rolling 6's To Wound to give a better idea of how realistic that is. However, the key thing is that hey chase Mortal Wounds. On anything in the game. So the Land Raider, Guilliman, Swarmlord, anything you can do a little damage to. "Free" mortal wounds are not a terrible thing, especially if you temper your expectations to "sit on Objective for the game and anything else is a bonus."

[Remtek]

I played a game vs a list with  4 sniper units, it really felt like you could just ignore them comfortably. One round might do 2 mortal wounds then nothing the next round and some rounds they were out of los. I can see it being nice vs AM or Ork Characters as they have lower saves.

[Karhedron]

However, the key thing is that hey chase Mortal Wounds. On anything in the game. So the Land Raider, Guilliman, Swarmlord, anything you can do a little damage to. "Free" mortal wounds are not a terrible thing, especially if you temper your expectations to "sit on Objective for the game and anything else is a bonus."

Yup. And don't forget that they also fulfill your Troops tax in Battalions etc to allow you to rack up those CPs.