8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Indefragable]

LutherMax and I were discussing the idea that 40k, for all its dolled up, is chess at its core. As such, I am of half a mind that Sanguinary Guard are the "queen" of our army: able to handle quite a bit, but you really need to invest in them to the point that you can only have one of them in your army. I think with 5-10 (for some reason my gut says 8 is the magic number, but I have no data to support that) dudes, a Libby for the crucial 4++, Sanguinary Priest for +1S and keep them alive, and a Sanguinary Ancient for the obvious benefits, they can be the force that will wreck face nad draw most of your enemy's attention. I would like to say Samguinor as well, but what I just mentioned is bloody expensive as :cuss as is. The real trick is making sure the rest of your army can carry the mission regardless of what the Golden boys do.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

LutherMax and I were discussing the idea that 40k, for all its dolled up, is chess at its core. As such, I am of half a mind that Sanguinary Guard are the "queen" of our army: able to handle quite a bit, but you really need to invest in them to the point that you can only have one of them in your army. I think with 5-10 (for some reason my gut says 8 is the magic number, but I have no data to support that) dudes, a Libby for the crucial 4++, Sanguinary Priest for +1S and keep them alive, and a Sanguinary Ancient for the obvious benefits, they can be the force that will wreck face nad draw most of your enemy's attention. I would like to say Samguinor as well, but what I just mentioned is bloody expensive as as is. The real trick is making sure the rest of your army can carry the mission regardless of what the Golden boys do.

I like the chess analogy.

I think this begs for the Sanguinor absolutely *nod.

 

and a Chaplain and flanking/screening support forces in rhinos also =)

I think there is something to the go big or stay home shooting angle in 8th.

 

This assault force becomes a bully beatstick for sure.

What to support the queen with otherwise...

Rooks and Bishops and Pawns of course =)

 

Moar assault / plasma / melta forces seems imperative.

More units that can tail into the bubble of roving death that you are creating methinks.

Going to need to really give thought to the best ways to get the further needed anti-tank/monster firepower in there too.

Have to deploy 1/2 your stuff on the table and pretty much plan on going 2nd...

 

My thoughts keep returning to this kind of unit core tho fellas... It is how I want to run my Angels.

I keep skipping on Sanguinary Guard because of points cost tho. A shame they are so costly.

 

----

 

I suspect vehicle based screens are going to be the thing to try for me for awhile until our codex.

My "Queen" bubble may not include Sanguinary Guard currently, but all the rest of the band are there advancing behind the vehicles.

And I am gonna play Radio Gaga Rhino Rush on somebody with all those characters before the codex...

 

Idea is Rhinos and a Land Raider Crusader (for the flying stuff to deploy in) advancing to cover a small partial jump force disembarking and moving up behind it physically.

Some 2 man company jump veterans ideally will be hiding behind the vehicles when it comes time to dismount the killers and charge.

Part of the Idea being to be out of line of sight behind the Rhinos/Raider and jump charge those small hidden squads into CQC 1st.

This stops overwatch since they likely can't see my pioneer forces to overwatch them. (Yes that is 100% legal still as far as I know and somewhat easy to hide with 2 man squads)

THEN the real beatstick and other vehicle based force charges into an already engaged enemy head on with little tails back to the Queen support bubble coming over/in to support.

 

It's doable I tell ya... I'm not crazy even if I do write big walls of text =P

But man that is perhaps alot of stuff to point out and marshall just so.

And really begs for foot DC in the Rhinos so I am off topic a bit.

 

So many options in 8th... Chesslike *nod.

 

The thing with the Sanguinary Guard is you ideally need all those things that make them better anyhow to most effectively assault with BA in my opinion.

So give em a shot and hope they get a points decrease in the codex methinks.

I don't think they suck but are kinda spendy in 2000 points when you already want all that other spendy stuff.

 

There is all this spendy stuff I wanna use...

I tend to cut out the guardsmen themselves for a proper Chaplain and other forces usually in my list makings right now.

I could see squeezing in 4 but only because I love the models (and I really do).

[Indefragable]

What Sanguinary Guard have going for them in 8th, compared to other "elite" units of other SM forces are:

 

-2+ Armor (only UM Honor Guard have that, but we get 4-10 modes and the below)

-12" movement. SG are (currently) the fastest 2+ Armor in the game (that I am aware of). It took me a while for that to click, but it's important to note.

-re-roll To-Hit near WL. What makes this the most interesting is that it gives options for us. Most other power Armor forces, beyond UM and SW, pretty much have mono-build HQ's (Helbrecht, Shrike, etc...). While it's counter-intuitive to a degree, we don't HAVE to take Dante with SG now. It opens up some interesting, if not obvious, angles.

 

So what that means is SG are better "clay" to work with then many other options. Their biggest issues are lack of invuln, and S4 weapons. Both of those can be overcome with a Librarian and Sanguinary Priest (who gives the bonus of healing).

 

My biggest gripe/concern is that for the cost and target-magnetness of Sanguinary Guard makes them need that invuln from the Libby. But what could possibly go wrong relying on psychic powers? Besides simply failing for it to go off or getting sucked into the warp, there's the chance that the enemy can deny it. Which you know they may use a CP re roll to do. I am especially sensitive to this fact considering one of my main opponents runs Black Templar.

[Remtek]

 

Try running with a JP libby as warlord. Can give out 4++ and +1attack and you still get re-rolls in combat. Not sure what i think of them yet, i tried running a barebone 4man squad with plasma pistols, but the dmg was really lacking.

That's a great idea. I have a JP Libby who would fit the bill nicely. Against anything that hits with AP-3 or worse, I cast shield on them. Against more numerous but weaker foes, +1A. No way to give him an Invulnerable save though that I can think of sadly.

 

I think you can cast both in the same turn, or else i have been doing it wrong for a few games.  Have some more stuff drop, shooty assault squads or stormbolter jp vets they can help keep the libby safe

[Crimson Ghost IX]

What Sanguinary Guard have going for them in 8th, compared to other "elite" units of other SM forces are:

 

-2+ Armor (only UM Honor Guard have that, but we get 4-10 modes and the below)

-12" movement. SG are (currently) the fastest 2+ Armor in the game (that I am aware of). It took me a while for that to click, but it's important to note.

-re-roll To-Hit near WL. What makes this the most interesting is that it gives options for us. Most other power Armor forces, beyond UM and SW, pretty much have mono-build HQ's (Helbrecht, Shrike, etc...). While it's counter-intuitive to a degree, we don't HAVE to take Dante with SG now. It opens up some interesting, if not obvious, angles.

 

So what that means is SG are better "clay" to work with then many other options. Their biggest issues are lack of invuln, and S4 weapons. Both of those can be overcome with a Librarian and Sanguinary Priest (who gives the bonus of healing).

 

My biggest gripe/concern is that for the cost and target-magnetness of Sanguinary Guard makes them need that invuln from the Libby. But what could possibly go wrong relying on psychic powers? Besides simply failing for it to go off or getting sucked into the warp, there's the chance that the enemy can deny it. Which you know they may use a CP re roll to do. I am especially sensitive to this fact considering one of my main opponents runs Black Templar.

Agree with you =) Sorry I got a bit off into Rhino Rush land in my last post.

 

I wanna love SG and they are so close to being really really great in my opinion. Definately usable in the right build I am thinking.

 

Most all of our special stuff is a bit overcosted and perhaps too reliant on matched up support units generally.

But I think we can make things work for now unitl we get the rest of the rules/toys to make this army fully realize it's potential.

 

I keep tossing out the SG in the list making stage myself for other elites instead.

I haven't used them enough yet so am not saying I know they are bad etc. I think they are really decent on paper.

 

I keep looking out across my list and seeing that I want a chaplain to buff re-rolls to other units also and that kinda wastes one of their main strengths right there I suppose is one of my personal sticking points with them oddly enough now that I think about it more.

 

I wanna run a libby and sang priest for sure anyway so that part washes easy enough for me regarding the SG.

It seems I am always struggling to find points for something and the SG get cut out in favor of something else cheaper.

It could very well be a mistake to do that.

 

I really hope they wreck stuff and shine like they should, I know I want them too certainly.

 

I think you should build a list around the 8 you mentioned and give it a shot. Maybe go 2x4.

 

Also I think they and the Sanguinor help multiply and pay for each other a great deal also. They go together really well.

Find something to hide behind and perhaps give those Templar honest to goodness hell if they shut down your Librarian =)

 

Only real world game table time is gonna know for sure.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Karhedron]

My biggest gripe/concern is that for the cost and target-magnetness of Sanguinary Guard makes them need that invuln from the Libby. But what could possibly go wrong relying on psychic powers? Besides simply failing for it to go off or getting sucked into the warp, there's the chance that the enemy can deny it. Which you know they may use a CP re roll to do. I am especially sensitive to this fact considering one of my main opponents runs Black Templar.

I have only seen a screenshot of the BT stratagem but I think it costs a Command Point and only works on a 4+. Yes it is nasty if it robs you of a psychic buff at a crucial moment but CPs are a valuable resource and spending them on a 50:50 chance is a pretty expensive way of cancelling psychic powers.

[dakkamasta]

Do they really NEED the libby for the invul though? Very few weapons outside of eldar have AP -4 or better. Most anti-SG weapons such as plasma have -3 which leaves them with a 5+ save still. If you land them in cover they will get a 4+ save against weapons woth -3 AP. Anything with AP -1 or -2 will make the invul useless since your armour will still be better or at worst, the same as the invul.

 

Personally i think the best combo is SG with a Sainguinary Ancient and the Sanguinor.

[Panzer]

Do they really NEED the libby for the invul though? Very few weapons outside of eldar have AP -4 or better. Most anti-SG weapons such as plasma have -3 which leaves them with a 5+ save still. If you land them in cover they will get a 4+ save against weapons woth -3 AP. Anything with AP -1 or -2 will make the invul useless since your armour will still be better or at worst, the same as the invul.

 

Personally i think the best combo is SG with a Sainguinary Ancient and the Sanguinor.

That's true. It would really take some incredibly potent weapon to punch through a 2+ armor and most of those aren't exactly anti-infantry weapons.

[Indefragable]

Do they really NEED the libby for the invul though? Very few weapons outside of eldar have AP -4 or better. Most anti-SG weapons such as plasma have -3 which leaves them with a 5+ save still. If you land them in cover they will get a 4+ save against weapons woth -3 AP. Anything with AP -1 or -2 will make the invul useless since your armour will still be better or at worst, the same as the invul.

 

Personally i think the best combo is SG with a Sainguinary Ancient and the Sanguinor.

Melee :(

[dakkamasta]

Exactly, the weapons I see being the most damaging to SG are things like autocannons and weapons equivalent to them. Multiple shot, high strength, not great AP but 2 damage. A 4+ invul will do nothing to save them against these weapons and they'll drop like flies. It wouldn't take long for a smart opponent to figure that out.

 

I think the problem is looking at them in a 7th ed mindset. A 2+ save pretty much has a pseudo-invul built in because it's very difficult to completely negate it. The only thing that ignores it apart from -5 AP (very veru rare) is a mortal wound, which bypasses the invul anyway.

 

If you're going for the cheap support character. Just take the priest. He can heal without rolling, increase strength without rolling, and bring back a model on a 4+. The libby could fail his psychic test when you need it most and do nothing.

[dakkamasta]

As for nasty assault units. To be honest SG shouldn't be fighting them. They are meant to bully weaker units. Its the age old motto of shoot the choppy things and chop the shooty things.

[Panzer]

Chop the shooty and shoot the choppy units. If Sanguinary Guard can't compete with the opponents choppy unit without getting itself killed, shoot it instead. ;)

[Charlo]

The best thing about SG is that they are really effective now in every phase of the game (bar Psychic duh).

 

They can plasma things, they chop hard, the move fast and have good defenses - 2W and a 2+ isn't bad at all.

 

I think they are an investment unit, rather than the MSU days of old.

 

If you deep strike, your opponent is going to get maximum one turn to shoot them before they get into their effective range and even then they can land in cover and be pretty darn safe. Play to this strength.

 

In terms of characters I think a priest is the top tier, +1S and healing lets you get nicely patched up and boosts combat perfomance waaay up. Ancient may be up there too as ignoring morale is incredible as is re-rolls on 1 to wound. Sanguinor should not be ignored wither as he has a frankly insane weapon (S6 -4AP D3D!) for "challenges" and +1A buff really turns on the blender.

[Indefragable]

On a different note, I've been thinking of abusing the :cuss out of 2-man Company Vet squads to accompany characters. 38pts for 2x bolter, chainsword, and jump pack dudes that will eat a failed save for a character.

 

Makes me wonder if we could cheese it up by running say Dante out front because he WILL draw fire. And with 2+/4++ he can tank stuff...but then when he does fail, on a 2+ a cheap dude eats the wound.

[Karhedron]

19 Points for an extra wound may or may not be a bargain but are unlikely to be the best way to make use of a Character's Aura bubble.

 

To take Dante as an example, he has a 2+/4++ save and 6 wounds. Given his high price, each wound is worth around 35-ish points so 19 for a Company Vet as an ablative wound looks good on paper. But a canny opponent will abuse this. Throw a few krak missiles at Dante and it only takes a single failed save to cost him all the nearby company Vets. Then another failed save could easily cost him a lot of wounds. It's not impossible to pull off what you suggest but the risk is your opponent throws enough firepower at him to burn through his protection and kill him.

 

Personally I prefer to use Company Vets to carry special weapons and only use their ablative potential in HtH where characters can be more easily singled out. On the open battlefield, I prefer to rely on their "Character" status to protect them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Has anyone attempted Rhino Rush for us with this edition? Focusing on assault oriented units without jump packs?

 

It is definitely something I've been looking at lately. Thoughts, experiences with it this edition?

[Crimson Ghost IX]

2 man Company Vets are just sweet.

Rolling wounds to em at those critical moments while the priest grabs a band-aid for Mephiston or something is just more gravy.

I have been goofing with them since 8th dropped.

 

I see they haven't changed for vanilla marines (I was worried they were going to be changed after the index) so that makes me happy.

 

I like the Sgt with SS and TH which just got 4 points cheaper.

I have made a couple of Vet Sgts with dual lightning claws which just dropped to in cost by a point also but have yet to try them.

I like the squadies with SS and Powersword right now.

 

I like company veterans carrying melta and plasma very much also (but have been handing that role back to ASM to better use the +1 attack on the vets.)

I have had good success deploying them from a Land Raider.

 

I am thinking of these a great deal as a small spoiler stormtrooper squad charging from hiding to prevent overwatch currently.

What to get out line of sight behind... A vehicle works for a two man team if there are no hidey holes elsewhere (back from the lip of a building etc).

 

---

Regarding Rhino Rush, I think it's doable and perhaps a better way to run DC than with JP.

On paper anyhow, I need to get some games in soon before I gush too much about it =)

[Aothaine]

I was thinking about some roles that the new Primaris can play and help with. Take 5-man units of Reivers to toss the grenade in to prevent overwatching then assault with your real assault units. 

 

6-man Inceptor squads will wreck havoc on your opponents back line or flank. It is a bit expensive but you can kind of hammer and anvil with them. Though TH+SS terms might be better at this role they won't be as dangerous as 36 heavy bolter shots on a mobile platform that can hide in terrain for a 2+ save and T5. Maby throw in a Sang Priest with jumppack to drop in with them and restore models when needed.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Aothaine

[Quixus]

I was thinking about some roles that the new Primaris can play and help with. Take 5-man units of Reivers to toss the grenade in to prevent overwatching then assault with your real assault units.

Can't CC scouts do the same thing for fewer points?

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

I was thinking about some roles that the new Primaris can play and help with. Take 5-man units of Reivers to toss the grenade in to prevent overwatching then assault with your real assault units.

Can't CC scouts do the same thing for fewer points?

 

 Scouts don't have shock grenades, so, no.

[Panzer]

Unless it's a unit with Flamer or a unit with a sick amount of shots I wouldn't really worry much about Overwatch to be honest.

[Aothaine]

When you're assaulting with msu specialized units every little bit helps. Give the Reivers the assault guns and they can sit back as well and cause some possible wounds while supporting your assault units.

 

Do the grenades work on any unit? Do they work on T'au Crisis suits? Tanks? 

 

Over all the games I've played and watched that have overwatch in them... that ability can really cause some problems. I think the Reivers are going to be a good addition to specialize assault units. 

 

Assault Terminator squad rocking dual lightning claws for example...

 

I mean they allow you to not have to take that extra protection of an invlun save on the unit to get it where it needs to be. On top of shooting -1 ap storm bolters. Not a buy buy imho.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

They are definitely useful, but I find compared to Scouts that Reiver and Intercessors as well are just a bit too expensive.

[Aothaine]

I agree with intercessors to a degree. I think people are forgetting how much more difficult two wound model units are to kill though. With priests in the backline healing and bringing dudes back the Primaris can be quite formidable. Not the best. If you're looking to just crush face go with 5-man tac squads and razorbacks with 2-3 stormravens. GG.

[Ceril]

Be careful with MSU, especially 2 man company squads. As someone mentioned here or another forum:

If you assault something nasty, say Magnus or some HQ or whatever, two of your model will strike first. Then the opponent has the option to spend CP to hit the models that haven't had a chance to fight yet. Potentially killing many. If all your Company Veterans was in a 5-10 man squad he would not get a chance to retaliate on them as long as you go first with that squad.

 

Just something to keep in mind.