8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Are Verlo]

Nothing stopping you from mixing all the chapters (other than losing out on all CT bonuses).

 

I don’t know the wording for SM relics, but based on IG/daemons, the relics are determined by warlord’s fraction.

 

Both the guard and daemon codex says if your army is led by a guard/daemon warlord, one relic may be given to a character with the right keyword. As written a tzeentch daemon warlord may even grant some of the daemon relics to thousand sons characters on disc, because they have all the right keywords like daemon, tzeentch and psycher.

 

Edit:spelling

Edited January 20, 2018 by Are Verlo

[The Unseen]

There is still the question of whether the take extra relic strategem works from a faction your warlord isn't from.

It's pretty iffy, and I would expect clarification one way or the other eventually.

 

And that supreme command detachment is pretty bad idea. All of them lose their CT, and the captain can't buff anything but himself.

The librarian is workable, because most psychic powers target "ADEPTUS ASTARTES" units, which BA units are.

[the jeske]

Whats the use of mixing CT like that? Dont you lose the benefits? 

 

Also, grats to the player!!! I have no idea what to do with that list or how it would work

its an anti flyer list. if someone has a quad raptor list for example. Or a lot of flying DPs.  It has a ton of scoring units, and it makes stuff like eldar lists waste shots on stuff. At the same time your runing 6 HQ 6th and eariler edition eldar super friends style. they can deal with problem targets, can alfa strike stuff. There are games where you lose all the HQ and the DC, but the scoring dudes won you the game. In other games your scoring dudes try to not die as long as it is possible while your DC and HQs go hunting. the fire base primaris and techy work ok, they aren't dark reapers, but when you need a list that has to kill a flyer build this list does quit well. At the same time it does not totally suck like some counter builds.

 

I personally like the more sb veteran version of the list, it plays a bit like eldar jetbike/warp spiders list played, but with more bodies and stronger melee.

[Arkhanist]

There is still the question of whether the take extra relic strategem works from a faction your warlord isn't from.

It's pretty iffy, and I would expect clarification one way or the other eventually.

 

 

It has been clarified in the Death Guard FAQ.

 

"Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?

A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems."

 

Note CSM and Death Guard are separate books, and factions, same as codex marines and BA.

 

You can make a 'space marines' detachment out of units from any/all codex chapters, excluding BA and SW. You wouldn't get chapter tactics for the supreme command detachment as they're not all from the same chapter, but you do get codex SM stratagems, and a codex marine warlord gives the codex marine relic, in this case to the biker libby.  With a BA detachment you also get BA strats, and could use the BA strat to give a BA character a relic, as per the death guard FAQ. Though in this case, I can't see a 2nd relic on the BA, nor a character eligible to take one anyway.

 

You could use chapter specific codex marine strats on the sole chapter character, where keywords allow; the white scars one would work on the librarian, for example.

You can also use generic codex marine strats on BA units, where keywords allow (and most apply to ADEPTUS ASTARTES, which BA have). There's a 2nd question on that in the Death Guard FAQ that specifically confirms that's allowed.

 

Storm of fire seems a pretty weak warlord trait, given it only gives -1AP to same chapter units; buffing himself only seems a bit of a waste. The Ultramarines warlord trait 'Adept of the Codex' to reclaim CP would be far more useful and a reason to take an ultramarine warlord, though maybe warlord trait was randomised?

Edited January 21, 2018 by Arkhanist

[Valistan]

Whats the use of mixing CT like that? Dont you lose the benefits? <...>

One of the purposes is getting access to Codex:SM stratagems before the game. For example, with SM Stratagem "Chapter Master" BA Captain with Jump Pack got BA Chaper Master properties.

[Diagramdude]

Valistan, are you 100% sure on that? The Chapter Master stratagem references "<CHAPTER>" and I think it's made very clear that any use of <CHAPTER> in C:SM cannot be "Blood Angel"

[Valistan]

Valistan, are you 100% sure on that? The Chapter Master stratagem references "<CHAPTER>" and I think it's made very clear that any use of <CHAPTER> in C:SM cannot be "Blood Angel"

I'm sure 100%. This stratagem has not any obvious restrictions for non codex chapters.

[Jolemai]

It's specifically stated we can't use them a the start of the parent section Sons of the Primarch on page 194.

[Valistan]

It's specifically stated we can't use them a the start of the parent section Sons of the Primarch on page 194.

This situation is absolutely identical to the one described in the C:CSM FAQ (Tide of Traitors Stratagem):

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space

Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For

example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of

Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha

Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single

Battle-forged army?

 

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you

have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on

any permitted target: they do not need to be from

that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion

Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine

Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any

Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists

from the Death Guard Detachment.

[Panzer]

I agree, it's the exact same situation.

 

It's specifically stated we can't use them a the start of the parent section Sons of the Primarch on page 194.

The same paragraph exists in the CSM Codex as well. I guess they meant to say that you can't use those things with just a DG detachment in your army but it's fine if you have a CSM detachment to unlock the Stratagems.

Something to keep in mind tho is that you lose the Captain keyword so you shouldn't be able to use the Death Visions of Sanguinius Stratagem on him anymore. However you could turn one of your Captains into a Chapter Master and the another into Deathcompany.

[Arkhanist]

 

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultistsfrom the Death Guard Detachment.

 

 

The question is not whether having a SM detachment grants access to the strategem; the Death Guard FAQ made it clear that we do, i.e. your quoted text. For strategems that apply to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units, then they can apply to Blood Angels units generally as they have that - as a faction keyword no less, before anyone starts quoting the daemons FAQ - other keywords allowing of course (infantry, character keywords etc).

 

The question is, as I've bolded, are Blood Angels a permitted target for <CHAPTER> keyword strategems or not?

 

Well, for that we look at the Space Marines codex. Could we take <CHAPTER> units from it, and substitute BLOOD ANGELS? pg 130.

 

"<CHAPTER>

All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g.Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from....

Note that there are several Space Marine Chapters – such as the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights – that deviate significantly from the Codex in terms of organisation and fighting style. The rules and abilities for these Chapters (and any successors they may have) will be detailed in their own codexes."

 

So basically, no, Blood Angels cannot be substituted for the <CHAPTER> keyword in general - and thus aren't a permitted target for *that* particular strategem. 

 

I'll then add this from the designer's commentary:

 

"The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment."

 

And my personal opinion, and this is not addressed at anyone specifically - Blood Angels HAVE a chapter master, called Dante. Don't be *that* guy.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Arkhanist

[Panzer]

 

 

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultistsfrom the Death Guard Detachment.

 

 

The question is not whether having a SM detachment grants access to the strategem; the Death Guard FAQ made it clear that we do, i.e. your quoted text. For strategems that apply to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units, then they can apply to Blood Angels units generally as they have that - as a faction keyword no less, before anyone starts quoting the daemons FAQ - other keywords allowing of course (infantry, character keywords etc).

 

The question is, as I've bolded, are Blood Angels a permitted target for <CHAPTER> keyword strategems or not?

 

Well, for that we look at the Space Marines codex. Could we take <CHAPTER> units from it, and substitute BLOOD ANGELS? pg 130.

 

"<CHAPTER>

All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g.Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from....

Note that there are several Space Marine Chapters – such as the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights – that deviate significantly from the Codex in terms of organisation and fighting style. The rules and abilities for these Chapters (and any successors they may have) will be detailed in their own codexes."

 

So basically, no, Blood Angels cannot be substituted for the <CHAPTER> keyword in general - and thus aren't a permitted target for *that* particular strategem.

 

I'll then add this from the designer's commentary:

 

"The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment."

 

And my personal opinion, and this is not addressed at anyone specifically - Blood Angels HAVE a chapter master, called Dante. Don't be *that* guy.

 

The Stratagem doesn't target <CHAPTER> units tho so that's completely irrelevant. The <CHAPTER> part is for the new re-roll aura he gets.

[Arkhanist]

 

 

The Stratagem doesn't target <CHAPTER> units tho so that's completely irrelevant. The <CHAPTER> part is for the new re-roll aura he gets.

 

 

OK, but you'd be paying 2CP to just remove the captain keyword, and gain one you couldn't actually use.

 

"Replace this model’s CAPTAIN keyword with Chapter Master and replace his Rites of Battle ability with the following ability: ‘CHAPTER MASTER:You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model.'"

 

Since Blood Angels can't be substituted <CHAPTER> then that ability is useless. For a given unit, you replace all instances of <CHAPTER> with the chosen one - and since BLOOD ANGEL units captains can't ever have the <CHAPTER> keyword, you wouldn't actually have a valid chapter to insert there.

[Panzer]

Yeah probably but that's a different problem. :P

[Diagramdude]

With regards to RAW vs RAI, does anyone really think a random Blood Angel captain can suddenly become Chapter Master right before a battle? Is Dante getting senile?

[The Unseen]

With regards to RAW vs RAI, does anyone really think a random Blood Angel captain can suddenly become Chapter Master right before a battle? Is Dante getting senile?

No, but your forces could be a successor chapter, or even a Blood Angels force set before Dante became chapter master.

(So sometime set before MK30.5 ish.)

 

Fluffwise it's totally justified, but it doesn't work RaW, from the <Chapter> tag.

[Blackcadian]

Dont all the other Space Marine Chapters have a chapter master, too? I fail to see the fluff issue limited to Blood Angels only (chapter master being Dante).

 

I also don’t see how that:

 

"<CHAPTER>

All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g.Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from....

Note that there are several Space Marine Chapters – such as the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights – that deviate significantly from the Codex in terms of organisation and fighting style. The rules and abilities for these Chapters (and any successors they may have) will be detailed in their own codexes."

 

means that:

 

So basically, no, Blood Angels cannot be substituted for the <CHAPTER> keyword in general - and thus aren't a permitted target for *that* particular strategem.

 

It just says that there’ll be rules for the other chapters in their own codex books, it doesn’t say Blood Angels aren’t a valid <chapter>.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Blackcadian