8th edition MathHammer

[LuisMars]

Update!

 

It's still work in progress but I updated and upgraded my calculations.

 

Now it simulates a battle of 7 turns at different starting distances, so the saves and wounds of our units are taken into account.

 

Instead of calculating the results of only one model, it calculates different configurations of the squad.

 

Characters can take Relics!

 

It also takes into account the point limit, because playing a 1k game is not the same as playing a 2500 one.

 

The "effectiveness" is calculated using the following formula:

effectiveness = chance_of_killing_the_enemy * chance_of_surviving * (total_points - unit_cost) / total_points

You can filter it writing below the column name and sort the columns by clicking the column name. (Shift click sorts multiple columns)

 

"-1" points means that points are not taken into account.

"0" initial distance only measures close combat.

The values showed in advancing column can be read as "1" = yes and "0" = no.

 

So, why it's still WIP?

 

- I don't know if the new format is readable.

- I plan to add:

    - Psychic powers.

    - Stratagems.

    - Auras affecting units.

    - Traits.

 

You can find it here. Please don't break it

Edited September 14, 2017 by LuisMars

[Soder]

Huh. Interesting. I'm surprised that the halberds produce the same results as the falchions with certain matchups..

Thanks for doin that!

Also looks like it's back to hammers on justicars

Edited June 2, 2017 by Soder

[Valerian]

Appreciate that.

 

How about testing against, say, a Dreadnought?  We do pretty well against MEQs with Force weapons on every model.  Would be interesting to see what it would take to bring down a fairly typical Vehicle in close combat, though.

 

Also, would be nice to see the impact of being in a Grand Master's Rites of Battle buff aura, and the impact of being in an Ancient's Sacred Banner buff aura, and then the impact of being buffed by both at the same time.  

 

Are you up to it?

 

V

[Soder]

Ya ya! Do that too. Lol. Me no good at maths, lol Edited June 2, 2017 by Soder

[LuisMars]

Appreciate that.

 

How about testing against, say, a Dreadnought?  We do pretty well against MEQs with Force weapons on every model.  Would be interesting to see what it would take to bring down a fairly typical Vehicle in close combat, though.

 

Also, would be nice to see the impact of being in a Grand Master's Rites of Battle buff aura, and the impact of being in an Ancient's Sacred Banner buff aura, and then the impact of being buffed by both at the same time.  

 

Are you up to it?

 

V

 

Done!

 

Keep the suggestions coming!

[the jeske]

with the influx of [i hope] tyranid and orc armies, maybe doing something like vs orcs/stealers would be interesting to see how efficient GK are when facing 20 man squads. we could then extrapolate the return hits and who wins after 2-3 rounds of fighting.

[Amornar]

This is really interesting. Basically seems like in general best option is hammers for champs, falchions for everyone else, or barring that halberds with swords almost always least efficient. Figures because all my guys have swords lol. Oo and also Voldus is just full of win with melee or psychic for us. Thanks LuisMars!

[Valerian]

 

Appreciate that.

 

How about testing against, say, a Dreadnought?  We do pretty well against MEQs with Force weapons on every model.  Would be interesting to see what it would take to bring down a fairly typical Vehicle in close combat, though.

 

Also, would be nice to see the impact of being in a Grand Master's Rites of Battle buff aura, and the impact of being in an Ancient's Sacred Banner buff aura, and then the impact of being buffed by both at the same time.  

 

Are you up to it?

 

V

 

Done!

 

Keep the suggestions coming!

 

 

Much appreciated!

[LuisMars]

with the influx of [i hope] tyranid and orc armies, maybe doing something like vs orcs/stealers would be interesting to see how efficient GK are when facing 20 man squads. we could then extrapolate the return hits and who wins after 2-3 rounds of fighting.

 

I did something similar to what you said. It's only an approximation, an average of 100000 random simulations. I've taken morale into consideration.

[LuisMars]

I did some tests for Brotherhood Champion, Brother-Captain and Librarian in Terminator Armour.

 

Surprisingly the Brotherhood Champion performs rather good for the points if he uses Sword Strike.

Edited June 3, 2017 by LuisMars

[LuisMars]

Updated with shooting calculations.

 

Even with the -1 to hit psilencers dominate almost all the scenarios I tested.

A Venerable Dreadnought is outperforms the normal one for its price, but not by much.

Dual twin autocannons (quadruplet autocannon???) are best choice, but the twin lasscannon is closely behind.

 

Also, taking a Dreadnought is only worth it if you're going to be sitting ducks away from the fight.

 

 

Now, a purgation squad costs the same as a strike squad and can take 4 psilencers. Maybe moving them with a Rhino or a Razorback is not a bad idea.

[Gentlemanloser]

The incinerators all show zero?

[LuisMars]

The incinerators all show zero?

 

I divided the results in 3 ranges, so being only range 8" the only do something in the closest one.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doh!

[Waking Dreamer]

Updated with shooting calculations.

 

Even with the -1 to hit psilencers dominate almost all the scenarios I tested.

 

A Venerable Dreadnought is outperforms the normal one for its price, but not by much.

Dual twin autocannons (quadruplet autocannon???) are best choice, but the twin lasscannon is closely behind.

 

Also, taking a Dreadnought is only worth it if you're going to be sitting ducks away from the fight.

 

 

Now, a purgation squad costs the same as a strike squad and can take 4 psilencers. Maybe moving them with a Rhino or a Razorback is not a bad idea.

 

Nice, as mentioned in the other thread, can you do shooting comparisons between the Dreadknight's:

 

- Heavy psycannon

- Heavy Incinerator

- Gatling Psilencer

 

While the heavy incinerator auto-hits...D6 hits feels a bit too variable, especially for being the most expensive option and having the shortest range.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do people think its a good trade for a PAGK to lost their Nemesis Weapon and pay 2 points for a Psilencer?

[LuisMars]

Do people think its a good trade for a PAGK to lost their Nemesis Weapon and pay 2 points for a Psilencer?

Combat Weapon		Ranged Weapon	Points	Combat WpP	Shooting WpP	Average WpP
Nemesis falchion (pair)	Storm Bolter	21	0.0317		0.0205		0.0261
None			Psilencer	23	0.0106		0.0623		0.0364

(WpP = wounds per point)

It is a good trade if you're going to spend half your turns shooting or more.

 

 

Nice, as mentioned in the other thread, can you do shooting comparisons between the Dreadknight's:

 

- Heavy psycannon

- Heavy Incinerator

- Gatling Psilencer

 

While the heavy incinerator auto-hits...D6 hits feels a bit too variable, especially for being the most expensive option and having the shortest range.

 

 

The comparisons were done already!

 

The Gatling Psilencer is the best choice. The Heavy Psilencer is good but less effective for the points it costs. The Incinerator is always worse.

Edited June 5, 2017 by LuisMars

[Captain Coolpants]

This is too funny really. Because everything can now hurt everything, the cheapest choice (strength 4 psilencer) does the most wounds on average because of the d3 damage... Even against a dreadnought... lol

[Soder]

Do you think GW take the math into consideration when determining these things or only base it off of play testing? One would assume they see these numbers as well. Personally I had none of my guys equipped with pilencers. I wonder if this was an attempt to make the less chosen weapon better? But so drastically in most situations?..

 

I know it's probably not the best use of points but if I was to say now take a GK ranged weapon on my grandmaster or maybe now paladin ancient what would be better? The paycannon still? But just barely? (If you use the paladin math as a baseline)

 

Edit: I messed up looking at it before cause i was on my phone. Looks like the psilincer is better in almost every way I guess now

Edited June 5, 2017 by Soder

[Waking Dreamer]

^^^

 

Must have missed the Dreadknight weapons when scrolling in my phone.

 

Do you think GW take the math into consideration when determining these things or only base it off of play testing? One would assume they see these numbers as well. Personally I had none of my guys equipped with pilencers. I wonder if this was an attempt to make the less chosen weapon better? But so drastically in most situations?..

I know it's probably not the best use of points but if I was to say now take a GK ranged weapon on my grandmaster or maybe now paladin ancient what would be better? The paycannon still? But just barely? (If you use the paladin math as a baseline)

Edit: I messed up looking at it before cause i was on my phone. Looks like the psilincer is better in almost every way I guess now

 

I doubt GW's goes into mathhammer for ever aspect of their profiles/weapons, possibly just what they consider the most popular/powerful and then the rest through playtesting.

 

I dont think they looked too much into the stat numbers for GK ranged weapons, as it seems weight of fire is the cheapest and most effective. Not sure if I want them to find out either though, as they will likely (imo) just bump up the cost of Psilencers rather than make incinerators/psycannons cheaper and or better (e.g. make psycannons get AP-3 on To Wound rolls of 6 - aka 7th ed. rending).

[Zamtro]

Hurray my previously useless (More or less) 4 man Psilencer squad in razorback is now a viable option!

[the jeske]

This is too funny really. Because everything can now hurt everything, the cheapest choice (strength 4 psilencer) does the most wounds on average because of the d3 damage... Even against a dreadnought... lol

It is nothing new. remember how in 7th one of the best weapons in the entire game was a scater lasers, whose stats compering to the other great weapons of 7th are rather horrible.

 

From the looks of it. the way to go with GK is to specialise for anti horde/anti meq with buckets of dice, and then have very specific units to take down big stuff, with smite being the back up mechanic.

 

So maybe something like

 

2 GK HQ

2 units of terminators

1 unit of paladins

1 apothecary

1 NDK

2 rifleman

2 units of interceptors.

 

Still doesn't look perfect. Probably playing with ally or adding 1-2 unit of plasma chad marines would work real good.

[LuisMars]

I added Rhinos and Razorbacks and rearranged the close combat so it's easier to see and compare.

 

Twin Assault cannons on a Razorback are really worth taking and the other can be very versatile in different situations.

 

I'll be busy the next few days, but I'm going to think about how to test how strong GKs are against shooting and melee for its price. (Ideas accepted)

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe Wounds caused per points for Inceptors dual Assault Bolters and Hellblasters Plasma stuff?

 

Edit:

 

Oh and Grav Devs/Cents.  As Grav is still silly good. ;)

Edited June 7, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Confused Word Bearer]

Force Staves or Halberds? Looking at your mathhammer, they perform equal, but does it account for armor saves? If so, then Force Staves seem like the number one choice for general purpose stuff since they also add 1 to the invuln save if in melee.