Pure Fallen

TheForgottenAngel · June 2, 2017

Anyone see the new fallen and cypher rules? If so is it possible to make a pure Fallen list with Fallen as core and an unmarked lord as HQ with Cypher as second HQ?

I'd love to be able to make a relatively pure list using BoP models for a fun army.

Paradigm · June 2, 2017

Making a fallen army is definitely doable. I'd have to look at the rules to see exactly how to do it. But it is most certainly possible. They even have the imperium keyword, so you could take them in some pretty interesting ways.

Raven1 · June 2, 2017

You could run it as a vanguard detachment its minimum 1 HQ and 3 elites with +1 command point bonus. With either imperium or chaos filling out the rest of the choices.

bozo69pd · June 2, 2017

You could run it as a vanguard detachment its minimum 1 HQ and 3 elites with +1 command point bonus. With either imperium or chaos filling out the rest of the choices.

woah woah woah. Does this mean I can add my traitor AM!?

rendingon1+ · June 2, 2017

~~Sorry if it's little offtopish question but...~~

~~How do pistols work?~~

~~Can Cypher do a gunkata in cc? Or is he using fists when in assault?~~ got it :smile.:

Also how would you use the fallen? I like their rules but they cannot use transports and must remain stationary to reroll unless they are in Cypher's bubble.

Edited June 2, 2017 by rendingon1+

TheForgottenAngel · June 2, 2017

I'm thinking of one unit kitted out for close combat in a LRC, then 2-3 kitted as better tactical squads. Trying for a fun yet capable list that will trigger Dark Angel loyalists! Nothing too chaos corrupted though.

rendingon1+ · June 2, 2017

But LRC cannot transport them. In fact they cannot by transported by anything chaos or imperium because they are neither legion infantry nor chapter infantry.

Gordon Shumway · June 2, 2017

They are infantry. And they are chaos. That is all you need.

rendingon1+ · June 2, 2017

This model can transport 10 <legion> infantry

This model can transport 10 <chapter> infantry

And Fallen are Chaos, Imperium, Fallen faction keywords.

Ok, I admit I'm still a bit lost in this new rules - can you tell me where I can find info about transports and who exctly can ride in them? Thanks in advance.

Raven1 · June 2, 2017

Except fallen = <chapter/legion>

Chapter and legion is a generic keyword you choose. <chapter/legion> could be the emperors pointy sticks.

Fallen just don't have a choice thier chapter/legion is preset.

Except of course you can't mix the two. You cant have a forgefiend and leman russ.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Raven1

Lord Abaia · June 2, 2017

On the first page of the Chaos Index leaks in the section about the <Legion> keyword it says at the end of the last paragraph that the Fallen keyword cannot be applied as a <Legion> keyword.

rendingon1+ · June 2, 2017

On the first page of the Chaos Index leaks in the section about the <Legion> keyword it says at the end of the last paragraph that the Fallen keyword cannot be applied as a <Legion> keyword.

yeah just found that about 10sec ago. :biggrin.:

So... no transports for Fallen then.

Raven1 · June 2, 2017

I didn't read that...So that's dumb

Sception · June 2, 2017

No transports, and they don't infiltrate anymore, and their special rule encourages them to sit still, but they only get one heavy weapon per squad. I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with the Fallen right now. I had previously thought their 2 point discount compared to chosen was entirely unfair, but the utter lack of delivery options for what is basically a short-to-melee ranged unit really does leave them kind of high and dry. I'm still not convinced that the points difference is intentional, and neither am I convinced the lack of transport options is intentional, but as it is... yeah. I don't really think a fallen army is terribly viable at the moment, not because it isn't legal, but because I'm just not seeing how you're supposed to use the unit at all.

Unless melee rush really does become a big thing in 8th, such that you could rely on your opponents coming to you, but even then it would have to be a melee rush actually traveling across the board, and not a deep strike alpha rush, because without transports to bunker in, those will do quite a number on fallen units before they have much of a chance to do anything.

Gordon Shumway · June 3, 2017

I'm still not seeing what the problem is. All you need is one keyword in common to create a detachment. Yeah, it won't get all the bells and whistles as more specific legions, but it is still legal. It how a non Death Guard army gets cult troops.

Gordon Shumway · June 3, 2017

*get plague marines.

Gordon Shumway · June 3, 2017

Edit: never mind, I reread the rhino transport rules again and yeah, that's weird that fallen have to hoof it everywhere. Also, anybody else having a problem with editing one's own comments?

Brother Aiwass · June 3, 2017

Except fallen = <chapter/legion>

Chapter and legion is a generic keyword you choose. <chapter/legion> could be the emperors pointy sticks.

Love that reference!

How about <Imperium> transports? Maybe they can take a chimera ride or something? Didn't read the AM leaks :P

Raven1 · June 3, 2017

I would like to believe the wording in the Chaos Index was oversight on GW's part. Having read it and whay section it is in i think it was meant as restriction so there would not be <Fallen> Obliterators much like there cannot be <Thousand Son> Obliterators, but rules as worded it excludes them from our transports, how stupid.

Well maybe the imperium will through them a bone.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Raven1

Wrath of Bruinen · June 4, 2017

I've been thinking about how to make the Fallen en mass (or at least a few squads) viable/competitive - let me know what you think of this idea (may be pushing RAW)

1. Cypher

2. Fallen squad with as much plasma as you can fit

3. Chaos Sorcerer with prescience and warp time

Move Cypher up 7", and the Fallen and sorcerer up 6", then warp time the fallen up another 6" - Cypher should still be within 6" of them

Cast prescience on the Fallen squad

Unleash supercharged plasma death on the enemy (hopefully you are in rapid fire range by now) - you re-roll 1s thanks to Cypher and "can add 1 to your hit rolls" thanks to prescience, so on your first lot of rolls you add 1 to any 2s you roll (turning them into hits on 3+) but keep any 1s so that you can reroll, and then on the rerolls you add 1 to everything to avoid supercharged pain

ChazSexington · June 4, 2017

No transports, and they don't infiltrate anymore, and their special rule encourages them to sit still, but they only get one heavy weapon per squad. I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with the Fallen right now. I had previously thought their 2 point discount compared to chosen was entirely unfair, but the utter lack of delivery options for what is basically a short-to-melee ranged unit really does leave them kind of high and dry. I'm still not convinced that the points difference is intentional, and neither am I convinced the lack of transport options is intentional, but as it is... yeah. I don't really think a fallen army is terribly viable at the moment, not because it isn't legal, but because I'm just not seeing how you're supposed to use the unit at all.

Unless melee rush really does become a big thing in 8th, such that you could rely on your opponents coming to you, but even then it would have to be a melee rush actually traveling across the board, and not a deep strike alpha rush, because without transports to bunker in, those will do quite a number on fallen units before they have much of a chance to do anything.

I'm gonna test them soon, but gonna run them with a Sorcerer as well. Prescience will give them an extra move, which'll help with their range (giving them plasma).

Sception · June 4, 2017

Yeah, that could help, but even then warp time only boosts one unit a turn, and it's not guaranteed to go off, and while warptime could be used to make fallen sorta usable, that same casting could have done so much more for terminators or warp talons or even possessed. Not to mention that including the sorcerer is already a step away from a pure Fallen army since the Fallen isn't a valid legion keyword, so, for the moment at least, there technically aren't any Fallen sorcerers, at least not in the RAW game rule sense.

Edited June 4, 2017 by malisteen

Brother Aiwass · June 4, 2017

Making a pure Fallen army doesn't look like is going to have a lot of options. But since they have the <Imperium> keyword, maybe some drop pods? Or are restricted to loyalist scumbag astartes?

Epimetheus13 · June 16, 2017

I was thinking about taking a Fallen unit toting 6 plasma guns (5 plasma guns, a Champion with combi-plas) and putting them behind an Aegis Defence Line at the edge of my deployment zone. The ADL is Faction Unaligned so perfectly useable with either Chaos or Imperium armies, and there is a detachment of 0-3 fortifications. A 2+ save gives them some survivability, but firing Supercharged mode all the time will pose a significant threat to light/medium vehicles and monsters. They might also perform an interdictor role and encourage opposing targets to go elsewhere out of range.

I could spam this set-up twice and set up two fire bastions this way.

Closet Skeleton · June 16, 2017

I used my (built entirely for fluff at the end of the last edition) fallen army alongside my Black Legion and did okay against Imperial Knights, if only because my plasma squad didn't get targeted.

Cypher is good but not great. His melee attacks were worthless (no C'tan phase knife :cry: ) but his fall back and shoot rule makes that irrelevant (he can stay in combat but there isn't much reason to unless all his targets are also locked in combat).

Fallen are okay, but they're basically just idiosyncratic chosen. Plasma guns and pistols are best for them, power fists are bad (my sword equipped champion did more damage that the two power fists in his squad and that was against a knight gallant). Melee squads will probably do better if I use them again against something that isn't knights.

Best load out is 5 plasma guns, plasma pistol and axe on the champion (champions can't take combi-plasma and a power weapon), a couple of extra bodies if you want.

Best pure fallen list would be;

Vanguard Detatchment

HQ

Cypher

Elites

10 Fallen