Thunderwolves Nerfed

[Gherrick]

Actually, pistols DO give bonus attacks, but got even better, since they get resolved in the shooting phase instead of the assault phase (on subsequent rounds of combat).

[Wispy]

 

"ponderously slow" is an overstatement.

 

Their durability is obviously nothing to sneeze at, but I think we're under appreciating the volume of attacks they put out per a model. Charging doesn't give you bonus attacks anymore. Pistols don't give you bonus attacks anymore. 

 

5 bikes is 10 attacks. 3 thunder wolves are 15 attacks.

 

Good point. The only thing is, not all of those 15 thunder wolves attacks are coming from the rider right? In the case of of the bikers all of those attacks are coming from the rider? 

 

 

Yes, of course. you could make those 10 biker attacks come from special weapons, wheras only 6 from the thunderwolves would be from special weapons.

 

Though the fact that it's only 10 attacks seems like the point investment to kit a bike for melee per model would not be all that worth it to me. There's better returns elsewhere in the Space Wolves unit list for melee. I would not write off those Thunderwolf attacks, as they are at a higher quality and higher volume without spending anything on them.

 

If I'm investing points in wolf guard bikers, honestly, I'm doing it for combi weapons and shooting. The contrast in attacks, durability, and melee synergy with the wider army list make them a weird melee choice for me. 

[Wispy]

Actually, pistols DO give bonus attacks, but got even better, since they get resolved in the shooting phase instead of the assault phase (on subsequent rounds of combat).

it isn't melee, it's shooting. it won't benefit from any re-rolls you're getting from character auras and it won't hit with the strength of the thunderhammer the model might have. 

[Wispy]

 

 

Thunderwolves have the capacity to burry targets in S5 AP -1 attacks. Crushing teeth and claws is good for 3 such attacks per model. Have dog dogborn within 6 inches and it's 6 such attacks per model. Plus what ever you gave the riders. Throw in a wolf priest on bike and you're re-rolling misses.

Loss of 2" in movement isn't the end of the world. Wolf Guard bikers are finally as good as they ought to have been, but my TWC will feature in every game still.

But you're not just losing 2" of movement. Almost everything else is speeding up. Bikes move 14" with a guaranteed 6" turboboost. How fast do you think eldar jetbikes will go, because I'll bet money it's not slower than it was in 7th. With an assault unit speed is just as important as the ability to wreck face (and Thunderwolves will now also wreck a lot less face with only 2 special weapon attacks). I'm sure I'll still have a Thunderwolf or two here and there, but they are no longer as good as WG Bikers.

 

 

I have a feeling the landscape has changed re assaulting units too. With the charger going first it's possibly swinging it in favour of those that can 'deep strike' and get bonuses/re-rolls on the charge move.

 

Thunderwolves almost need bubble wrap now (vehicles?) to avoid getting charged.

 

 

In regards to bubble wrap.... Cyberwolves are a unit you can buy now! Same speed, good synergy.

 

Wulfen will move up the field at a similar pace. 

[Guest]

I think a big part that is overlooked is TWC is a fast attack and WG bikers are elite. They don't occupy the same force slot and that is a deciding factor. You could go for that extra command point for outriders and use TWC for fast attack. Vice versa is use WG bikers as elite choice for the vangaurd detachement.

[Gherrick]

 

 

Actually, pistols DO give bonus attacks, but got even better, since they get resolved in the shooting phase instead of the assault phase (on subsequent rounds of combat).

it isn't melee, it's shooting. it won't benefit from any re-rolls you're getting from character auras and it won't hit with the strength of the thunderhammer the model might have.

The captain (all versions) aura affects all units, for both shooting and melee.

[Garreck]

I think we will find greater value from bikes in kiting/shooting due to changes in rules for combi weapons and shooting in general, and thunderwolves will remain the go to for melee. Getting stuck in with bikes seems a waste of their capabilities.

[Gherrick]

Interesting, but I can't find anything in the rules that says you can only charge the unit you targeted in the shooting phase...shoot a unit behind another and charge the one in front.

[CrusherJoe]

You no longer are limited to assaulting the same unit you shot. You can also pile-in and/or consolidate into another unit for more combat shenanigans.

[sturguard]

Played a couple of games of 8th last night. Let me assure you TWC are still amazing, because storm shields and 3++ are still a thing. Almost everything has an AP value these days, and having a 3++ is more baller than baller. It's like bowling ball baller (am I using that term right? probably not...)

As mentioned above, Team Jacob Team Captain Canis Wolfman Wolfborn Wolfy Wolf Wolf with Wolf Priest on a bike with some screening units of Fenrisian Wolves is fan- ing-tastic. The WP can just *ding* heal wounds now, and thunder hammers do a straight 3 damage. Having the re-roll to hit is crucial.

8th Edition is brutal. Everything dies. It's awesome.

That's what I was afraid of, I actually was hoping I would see my models on the board more than during deployment, so much for protracted firefights and melees, hello pokemon go.

[Valerian]

Actually, pistols DO give bonus attacks, but got even better, since they get resolved in the shooting phase instead of the assault phase (on subsequent rounds of combat).

 

That's not better at all.  You have to live through two Fight phases before you'd ever get to use that Pistol.  It's much worse than just getting bonus attacks in close combat.  The only thing that is better with Pistols in this edition is that they actually get to use their own Profile, so a Plasma pistol hits like a Plasma pistol, whether you're locked in combat or not.

[NightHowler]

First, I'd like to say that there is little argument that TWC were nerfed. Whether you want to call it "Adjusted" or Toned Down" or use a similar euphemism, the simple truth is that they are not as good as they used to be - they did get an extra wound but this is the only improvement; the 3 S5 attacks are nice but leave you with only 2 attacks from the rider; the attacks from the rider are now S4 so thunderhammers only hit at S8; their speed has been reduced and in my mind this is the biggest nerf.

 

Now, compare them to Wolf Guard Bikers who got a power boost - an extra wound; increased movement; cheap storm shields; the option to take a shield, thunderhammer, and combi-plasma; add the fact that those plasma shots now only get hot if you over charge; plus twin-linked now means that at 12" your shooting 4 bolter shots plus the 2 plasma shots.

 

Take all this into account and side by side, the only real advantage the Cavalry has is that they are slightly more durable. The ability to outmaneuver and outshoot the Cavalry unit with cheaper models Point for Point outweighs the extra 3 attacks at S5 in my mind.

 

People will disagree for all kinds of reasons, and honestly their opinion is just as valid as mine.

 

Finally, I am absolutely not saying that Cavalry are useless now - just that in my lists their role has changed and bikes now fill the role that the Cavalry used to fill, while Cavalry will now usually be protecting my backfield as they will not keep up with the rest of my army.

[Hear da Lamentation]

True. But 3 out of 5 of those attacks are higher strength and AP than a normal marine.

The TH TWC has been nerfed admittedly but the basic TWC is still good.

 

HDL

[Garreck]

Interesting, Nighthowler. I see synergy with TWC and WG bikes but in the opposite way.

 

With 14" movement, bikes have a shooting threat range of...what, 38" or 26" to double tap with rapid fire. I figure I advance up the field with my higher durability TWC and create pressure, while grabbing a quick objective with the bikes. Backfield threat shows up? I zip 14" in its direction and give them the business with rapid firing plasma and twin linked bolters. Get dunked on traitor/xenos scum. Meanwhile my TWC has either soaked up a lot of shooting or has successfully closed into combat with something worth killing.

 

I think if you get locked into combat with bikes, you lose the striking new advantages they have over TWC and over their own previous iteration.

[Hear da Lamentation]

If TWC aren't the go to choice for combat anymore (I'm still not convinced) because they're too slow and WG bikers are better at firing, what is our assault unit? Wulfen are great but max move is 8"-13" if you include advance. They can reroll charge of course....

Wulfen get 3 attacks a round, that's one more special weapon (if they have one) but 2 less attacks overall. One less wound. Death frenzy and buffs helps of course.

Wulfen can't just take SS thought, they have to have TH/SS

 

37 points vs 45 for TWC.

[Wispy]

If TWC aren't the go to choice for combat anymore (I'm still not convinced) because they're too slow and WG bikers are better at firing, what is our assault unit? Wulfen are great but max move is 8"-13" if you include advance. They can reroll charge of course....

Wulfen get 3 attacks a round, that's one more special weapon (if they have one) but 2 less attacks overall. One less wound. Death frenzy and buffs helps of course.

Wulfen can't just take SS thought, they have to have TH/SS

 

37 points vs 45 for TWC.

 

I would use Wulfen and Thunderwolves together, honestly. Similar-ish unit speeds let them follow behind the Thunderwolves, taking advantage of the Wulfen's Hunt and Kill aura.

 

Kit the the TWC to take advantage of the attack volume and tanking, while the Wulfen are better vessels for monster slaying special weapons.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Problem with the double tap is that within 12" you are going to be charged next round. If the enemy units keep together they're going to smash a unit of bikers.

I've loved bikers since I started playing (even despite being told they were crap in 5th). But my experience tells me you have to have multiple units and at 300 points for 5 that is very expensive.

 

HDL

[Garreck]

I figure if 10 plasma and 20 bolter shots plus resultant battleshock doesn't render a unit inert, it was either the wrong target or just a bad day with the dice.

[NightHowler]

I figure if 10 plasma and 20 bolter shots plus resultant battleshock doesn't render a unit inert, it was either the wrong target or just a bad day with the dice.

This. Plus, you can shoot whatever you like, and then charge the high toughness high wound target that your thunderhammers work best on.

[Wispy]

I can't imagine this load out being legal for very long.

 

How on earth are you going to model this - combi plas and stormshields and thunderhammers. No matter how you cut it the rider only has two hands. 

 

They say Thunderwolves are ridiculous, but this stretching credibility here.

[NightHowler]

Wispy, it may not be intended. And if they FAQ it out of existence then Bikers really won't be that much better.

 

But I hope they don't FAQ it, because I truly believe that we lost more than most people realize or admit when they changed our Cavalry the way they did.

 

I agree they were strong before, but the abuse wasn't in the Cavalry themselves, it was in the deathstars people made by adding characters to them. The Cavalry themselves could have been brought into line by simply not allowing characters to join, or decreasing their speed, or dropping their strength, or by decreasing the number of attacks with their special weapon, but slamming them with all four nerfs at the same time was way overboard and entirely too punishing (IMHO).

[Garreck]

Well, for me...whatever the "intent" of the rules are, I won't be going purpose-built melee with my wolf guard bikers. I want them to shoot and scoot where possible. Storm shields and combis sounds like a magical combination by itself. I'll come back here and eat a plate of crow in front of NightHowler if that fails horribly

I'm still not sold that the adjustment is a net "nerf." How did other melee specialized units fare? Do other dedicated assault units have 10" movement, 3 wounds, toughness 5, and 5 attacks right out of the box? I know khorne berzerkers get to attack twice in a combat phase, but I'm counting them as one of the outliers this edition. Also, they don't have near the resilience of TWC. Anything else that can pile on the attacks?

I think our HQ auras synergize particularly well, too. Wolf priests, Canis, the Old Wolf himself with his ability to make Wolf Guard ignore battleshock entirely...all good stuff. Throw in the blessing of the wulfen, and I just really like how all of our stuff works together.

I've got to start list building. I've got ideas for a super wolfy, super mobile force...but I have no idea what kind of points I'm looking at yet haha.

[Wispy]

Adding the ranged weapon to a unit with thunder hammer AND storm shields makes this super clear.... Its unprecidented.

 

These bikers are broken. I think they dont survive the year.

 

You can run them of course - RAW is explicit - but i dont think that would be very nice.

[Garreck]

Yeah that's another part of my calculation to stay shields and combis, Wispy, and exclude thunder hammers.  I don't want to build a force org around something that gets common-sense adjusted in the first FAQ...and frankly I don't want to be "that guy" among my gaming crew.

[Wispy]

For sure.

 

I dont want to be the judgemental guy - lord knows i have railed against the attitude here often enough - but i just cant imagine this being something that survives to become status quo.