Improving the effectiveness of the Leman Russ

[Gothical]

So I would like to take a Storm lord with 4 sponsons each with twin heavy Flamers, load up 5 command squads with 3 flamers and a heavy flamer and crash into a battle line.  13 heavy flamers and 15 flamers 8 inches from anywhere on the baneblades large foot print could be fun.

 

I am unsure if the passengers will be allowed to shoot non-pistol weapons at models within 1". For open topped vehicles such as the Dark Eldar Raider, only Pistols can be shot whilst it is in melee following the normal shooting rules; Steel Behemoth doesn't completely over-ride the normal shooting rules, though if it carries over to the passengers generally speaking allows them to shoot whilst the Stormlord is in combat, and says "but only its twin heavy bolter and twin heavy flamer can target units that are within 1" of it" - therefore the passengers, carrying neither twin heavy bolters nor twin heavy flamers, would be allowed to shoot at models within 1".

 

On a different note, Thank you for doing all this work, for the Russes and the Supers.

 

It looks like the Shadowsword is a complete monster, but I am really disappointed the Banesword is so poor in comparison when it is not that much cheaper than the Shadowsword in terms of Power.

 

For the less mathematically inclined, could you give me your thoughts on the Hellhammer versus the Baneblade? The charts make them look pretty solid, and if I am reading them right the Hellhammer is better in terms of damage output, though naturally one has to consider the dramatically reduced range (especially with -1 To Hit when moving) once thinking about putting them on the table.

[Chris521]

I would probably choose the Hellhammer.  It's main gun will probably be looking for the same targets as it's Demolisher Cannon so it may have some better synergy than the Bane Blade has with it's gun.  I haven't looked at points very closely but my favorite choices are the Storm lord, shadow sword, Baneblade, and Hell hammer.  The shadow sword, with it's strength 16 is good against pretty much any single target out there.  I would load up the stormlord with heavy or special weapons, and take sponsons that match with those choices.  It can be good at both long range or breaking into a line. 

 

I did notice that I made a mistake with the storm lord.  I accidentally gave it a D9 roll for its number of hits so its actually weaker than what I have.  I'll  update that soon along with a small mistake on my original images.     edit* Turns out the D9 mistake happend sometime after I posted the images.

 

 

I'm also gonna run cases that give Pask re-rolls.  The most common interpretation seems to now be that he can order himself.  So while I think we really need an faq to be sure about that one, it's worth knowing what he can do.  It also changes some of my original conclusions since plasma Pask is amazing.  Pask and a buddy both with full plasma and a lascannon is a massive threat to most thing in the game.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Chris521

[Gothical]

 

I'm also gonna run cases that give Pask re-rolls.  The most common interpretation seems to now be that he can order himself.  So while I think we really need an faq to be sure about that one, it's worth knowing what he can do.  It also changes some of my original conclusions since plasma Pask is amazing.  Pask and a buddy both with full plasma and a lascannon is a massive threat to most thing in the game.

 

Good to know. Mind you, I'm going to play it safe for now, take Pask in a Punisher and take 2 Las/Plas Executioner wingmen to receive the orders!

 

It is certainly worth doing the maths on it, because even if Pask cannot order himself, you can still use Yarrick to re-roll 1s on that beautiful BS2+.

[Chris521]

Just some thoughts that will never come true here.

 

I was thinking about how the plain shadowsword could be a pretty reasonable choice for generic tank and creature hunter duty and that got me thinking about how to fix the Vanquisher.  Giving it strength 9 would be a given since it seems like it is supposed to have that anyway.  AP -4 could also help,  but I think what could really make this usable would be to give it a variant on the new blast rules.  I know GW would never do it, so I'm just playing around with ideas for the fun of it, but it could have d3 shots but it can only hit one model with those shots.

 

It's biggest rival is the Demolisher Cannon against heavy armor and, comparing the two, the Vanquisher would have much longer range and slightly more damage potential against heavy targets, but it will be absolute crap against squads of units (which the demolisher is pretty good against).  

 

Basically what I've come up with here is a mini shadowsword.

 

I think people might get hung up at the fluffiness of what is essentially more than one shot, I've attempted to counter that with it only hitting one model.  Frankly this one isn't really reaching that much farther than some of the other Russ and Baneblade options and seems to me like a good way to balance it.

 

 

Here Is a tank commander without re-rolls against T8 3+ (I made the Vanquisher S9 but kept it Ap -3).  Look particularly at the wound chances on the table between the Vanquisher and Demolisher and you will see that its really only a little more powerful than the Demolisher with this change

 

 

 

I think this would make it worth picking without making it over powered.  It's very unlikely to one shot heavy tanks since even Pask with rerolls has a 6.5% chance to kill a Russ which doesn't seem too powerful for a tank hunter.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Chris521

[Chris521]

I have added the data for Pask with re-roll orders to the op

[duz_]

Having listen to a few of the Frontline Gaming podcasts (the guys who helped play test). It seems this rule set is very permissive and simple compared to previous.

 

They have said Pask is unique because he can order himself because he has all the key words and rules that enable him to do so.

[Brother Captain Ed]

We keep using the phrase "order himself" and, while technically correct in the context of the game, it is contributing to confusion because it doesn't make sense grammatically.

 

I used to be an army officer (a tanker even) and I made it a point to be able to any task or execute any maneuver I might want my subordinate tank commanders to perform. But, if I was focused on my own vehicle, my situational awareness may have degraded enough that I wasn't directing other tracks. I didn't "order myself" but I was engaged with my own gunner, driver, and station. Pask should be no different. He's not ordering himself, he's just focusing on the task himself.

 

Thinking of it that way may help the abstraction for everyone.

[NatBrannigan]

Or split personality Pask?

 

"Do we want that Tank Dead Pask?"

 

"Yes we do other Pask, yes we do..."

[Chris521]

So the first FAQ came out and it ruled that for supercharged plasma rolls of 1 after modifiers cause the weapon to overheat.  This is a big nerf to the plasma sponsons since they get a -1 to hit just for moving which can't be fixed by orders.  Lumbering behemoth would be pretty nice right now...

[duz_]

Well not really ... because you dont have to super charge. We were given a better profile if we risk the chance of 6 auto wounds.

Sounds like based on that it would be unwise to supercharge and move on the same turn.

You can still fire D3 shots at normal the normal plasma profile.

[Gothical]

Whilst a nerf to sponsons (if overcharging, duz_ notes well that it is optional) it is a buff to the Executioner Cannon, as being turret-mounted means it does not suffer the -1 To Hit penalty for moving and shooting.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Gothical