New approach to Drop Pod lists

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Over the course of my Space Wolves collecting I ended up getting away from TDA/Raider heavy lists (6th edition was not very kind to me as a newb with lots of TDA) to a very Drop Pod heavy force that worked pretty well in 6th and 7th. Now.. as a new edition is on the horizon it's time to adapt again with some pretty radical changes. To be honest, I'm not super concerned about the changes to how reserves are kept or the premium needed to be paid for Drop Pods. I do think it's going to be a significant change in the approach to SW drop pods lists though (as well as any other drop pod army).

 

Somethings I'm looking forward to in 8th:

 

-Long Fangs in pods baby! Only -1BS makes me feel like we're going to have the ability to bring some decent fire power down with whatever pod'd nastiness is coming down from the heavens. 

 

-Charging out of Pods for GH/BC is definitely something to be excited about. With the command benefit of re-rolling a single die I'm thinking we could get some good effectiveness out of these units. 

 

-Not needing to rely on reserve rolls or scatter dies is huge and I think completely makes up for the issue of having to stay 9" away from the enemy.

 

Not looking forward to:

 

-The price.. is a very tough pill to swallow. I'm thinking I'll only be able to fit 4 Drop Pods max in my list because at 105 a pop and needing to deploy half of my army on the table; there just wont be enough points to roll any deeper than that. 

 

-I don't know if FWs Dreadnought Drop Pod will be available for 40k, but if it isn't, knowing I can't put a deadnought in a drop pod is kinda lame. With the new rules for charging and there general increase in survivability they would have been great force multipliers for the units on the ground that will still be pretty vulnerable.

 

All that considered... do you think Drop Pods are still good enough to build an army around or are they going to be delegated to supplemental tasks only? We're already going to have so many units on the table.. what units do we have that can function on their own well enough to wait for the Drop Pods to come in? Bikes and Land Speeders are what I had in mind because they aren't too expensive and are mobile enough to make up for what the troops on the ground are going to lack after they disembark. I considered TWC as well but I have no idea how they are going to function with the drastic changes they received as well. Any armor of course is going to be resilient but for me that's starts getting in the way of thematics and I'm not sure I want to do that. 

 

What do you guys think? Anyone else out there love Drop Pods SWs and not quite ready to give up on them yet? Anyone else been thinking about how they would play their army's now? 

[Wolf_Lord_Hardrada]

Razor-Fangs! New ability to move and shoot with those heavy weapons is going to give a great boost to their usefulness. (I know you already stated an intention for putting them in Pods, but eh, ideas)

 

Maybe just two squads (depending on game size) of bare bones GH to hunker down in some terrain and tank shots until your Pods start dropping. Depending on how you feel about them, Girly Mans new special boys might make an interesting addition and I'm told that certain parts are interchangeable for making them look the part. Everyone is gonna know them and probably want to take them down. Let them focus fire on the new shiny kits whilst the pups sneak up behind from above in drop pods?

 

Hel, two predators with a back up Iron-Priest for unkillable shenanigans?

[Rand Winters]

I assume if you're going to invest that much a drop pod now, you need to increase the reliability whatever comes out. In this regard, I think Ragnar is still the man when it using pods. Re-rolls for hit rolls of 1 and charge range. It's obviously going to be expensive for all this. But with how characters work now with their abilities being an aura, you drop him in with two pods close enough so both units can share the tasty re-rolls. Grey Hunters, rapid firing boltguns, all with free chainswords. Not to mention Ragnar himself is a beast! It would feel cinematic and awesome, and is the kind of badass thing Ragnar would do.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I assume if you're going to invest that much a drop pod now, you need to increase the reliability whatever comes out. In this regard, I think Ragnar is still the man when it using pods. Re-rolls for hit rolls of 1 and charge range. It's obviously going to be expensive for all this. But with how characters work now with their abilities being an aura, you drop him in with two pods close enough so both units can share the tasty re-rolls. Grey Hunters, rapid firing boltguns, all with free chainswords. Not to mention Ragnar himself is a beast! It would feel cinematic and awesome, and is the kind of badass thing Ragnar would do.

I do like the idea of Ragnar dropping in but I really don't know who I would put him in a pod with? Aren't we forced to take maxium squad sizes in this edition? 

[Rand Winters]

No, we can choose squad size like we have in the past. If you're doing Matched Play, you can upgrade the unit to have as many guys as you can afford with points, up to the maximum. It's a bit less granular with the Power Levels, in which case you usually increase unit size by 5 for standard infantry units. Also, you can put more than one unit into the drop pod, which allows characters to ride along, despite not being able to actually join our packs. He would do well with Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard in power armor, or Blood Claws.

 

If I were to take blood claws though, I'd try to find a way to bring Lukas the Trickster too. His bonuses to Claw units are fantastic for his cost, and he looks to be amazingly good in combat as well.

 

Also, this whole setup is so amazingly fluffy. With much of the spice taken out of all the chapters during this 8th edition reboot, this still feels pretty close to how it should. Granted, this is far from the "Claws of Russ" or the Blackmanes formation, where there could be dozens of pods. However, the Character bonuses from doing this with Ragnar somewhat fulfills what it says in the 7 ed codex that "his packs are the undisputed masters of the Drop Pod assault."

[Lord Ragnarok]

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

[Valerian]

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

Yeah, Dreadnoughts aren't included in the types of models a drop pod can carry.

[Rand Winters]

As of the new Imperium index, not anymore... Only up to 10 <Chapter> Infantry. No dreads, terminators, jump packs, centurions, or Primaris units. Add that to the tripled point cost, and it is a pretty harsh blow. But so many people have drop pods, and it was integral to our chapter strategy for so long, might as well find ways to make lemonade from these lemons.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

Yeah, Dreadnoughts aren't included in the types of models a drop pod can carry.

Valerian, isn't that only what the dataslate for regular drop pods says? We currently have no idea what the rules are going to be for Forge World drop pods like the Lucius or Dreadclaw. Those very well could allow Dreadnoughts to deploy in them.

I honestly don't feel it's the point cost is the worst change to drop pods.. It's the dang rule forcing us to deploy have our army (units wise) on the table. The other thing that is really going to hurt is if drop pods are not going to count as part of the unit that's double the amount you have to account for. 4 drop pods and 4 units in them is 8 total. I feel like have an additional 8 deployed on the table is going to be chore

[Valerian]

 

 

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

Yeah, Dreadnoughts aren't included in the types of models a drop pod can carry.

 

 

Valerian, isn't that only what the dataslate for regular drop pods says? 

 

Well, yeah, but I was answering the question, "Dreads can't take non-Forge World drop pods?"  So...

[NightHowler]

 

 

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

 

Yeah, Dreadnoughts aren't included in the types of models a drop pod can carry.

 

Valerian, isn't that only what the dataslate for regular drop pods says? We currently have no idea what the rules are going to be for Forge World drop pods like the Lucius or Dreadclaw. Those very well could allow Dreadnoughts to deploy in them.

 

I honestly don't feel it's the point cost is the worst change to drop pods.. It's the dang rule forcing us to deploy have our army (units wise) on the table. The other thing that is really going to hurt is if drop pods are not going to count as part of the unit that's double the amount you have to account for. 4 drop pods and 4 units in them is 8 total. I feel like have an additional 8 deployed on the table is going to be chore :(

Speaking of whether or not drop pods count towards the number of units in reserve, does anyone know where to find the rules detailing which units can take what transports as "dedicated" transports? It's no longer listed on the datasheet for the units themselves and I don't see it on the datasheet for the transports, so... is it somewhere else? Can any unit take any transport as a "dedicated" transport? Any help here appreciated.

[Yoyo ninja]

Certain things are marked for the dedicated transports slot. And you can only take the same amount of dedicated transports as you have units.

Our things are Rhinos, Razorbacks and Pods. Codex marines can add Landspeeder Storm to that list.

[Valerian]

Yoyo has it right.  Dedicated Transports are no longer "dedicated" to a specific unit in the sense that they were in previous editions.  Now, they just comprise a brand new "Battlefield Role" in the same way that Troops, Heavy Support, Elites, and Headquarters (to name a few) have always been around as Battlefield Roles.  

 

Now you just get whichever ones you want within your limit of up to one DT per non-DT choice.

 

Also, you can put whoever you want to in any DT, up to the transport limit, so several units and several characters are all fine, so long as they fit. 

[Yoyo ninja]

I'm really looking forward to putting two units of long fangs in a pod loaded out with multi meltas. Can you imagine the look of horror on your enemies face as 10 multi melta toting long fangs jump out of a pod and proceed to blast all their tanks to bits.

[NightHowler]

Stormwolves are marked "flier" and Land Raiders are marked "heavy." So Stormwolves and Land Raiders are no longer "dedicated transports" for elite units like Wulfen or Wolf Guard?

 

What if a unit has a battlefield role other than "dedicated transport?" Can other units start embarked on non-dedicated transports?

[Valerian]

Stormwolves are marked "flier" and Land Raiders are marked "heavy." So Stormwolves and Land Raiders are no longer "dedicated transports" for elite units like Wulfen or Wolf Guard?

 

So, Stormwolves are in the Flyer Battlefield role, which means they're limited to the number of Flyers that one can take in a Detachment. Most of the Detachments, off of the top of my head, have a limit of 2 Flyers. Land Raiders are Heavy Support, so are similarly limited by each Detachment, which is usually 3. DTs don't have a Detachment limitation, they're only limited to one each per non-DT taken. Again, transports aren't dedicated to any specific units, as I mentioned above. Try to shed that pre-8th edition understanding from your brain. Wulfen and Wolf Guard, and Characters, and Grey Hunters, and everybody else that has the right keyword can be in any vehicle with a transport capacity, as any time they want.

 

What if a unit has a battlefield role other than "dedicated transport?" Can other units start embarked on non-dedicated transports?

Of course. They have a transport section in their unit rules that describes what can be transported, and how many. So long as your unit fits that, they can ride.

[Valerian]

Maybe it will help to look at some practical examples. Let's start with picking our vehicles in a Battalion Detachment. In that type of battle forged army, we could take up to three Heavy Support units, so we could take three Land Raider variants, we get up to two Flyers, so we could take two Stormwolfs, and if we have a total of 12 units combined from our HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, and Flyers choices, we can take up to 12 Rhinos/Razorbacks/Drop Pods combined.

The Land Raider's transport rules say that it can transport 10 <Chapter> Infantry models, and each Jump Pack or Terminator model takes the space of two other models. We then look at our unit data slate entries, and as long as they are Space Wolves Infantry, then they can ride in the Land Raider. Wulfen have the keyword Space Wolves and the keyword Infantry, so they can ride in a Land Raider.


The Rhino's transport rules say that it can transport 10 <Chapter> Infantry models, and that it cannot transport Jump Pack, Terminator, Primaris or Centurian models. So, when you look at your unit data slate entry, as long as they are Space Wolves Infantry and do not also say Jump Pack or Terminator, then they can ride. Wulfen have the keyword Space Wolves and the keyword Infantry, and they do not have the keywords Jump Pack or Terminator, so they can would be able to ride in a Rhino, if not for the caveat on page 130 of the Index (the first page of the Space Wolves' section), that details which transports Wulfen can ride in.

The Stormwolf's transport rules say that it can transport 16 Space Wolves Infantry models. It further says that each Terminator, Jump Pack or Wulfen model takes the space of two other models, and that it may not transport Primaris models. So, a Stormwolf can transport up to 8 Wulfen.
 

EDIT: Updated the bit in yellow.

Best,

V

[NightHowler]

We should have a thread where we get 7th out of our system by talking about these kinds of changes.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

 

Whoa, wait. Dreads can't take non FW DP's??

Yeah, Dreadnoughts aren't included in the types of models a drop pod can carry.

 

 

Valerian, isn't that only what the dataslate for regular drop pods says? 

 

Well, yeah, but I was answering the question, "Dreads can't take non-Forge World drop pods?"  So...

 

 

Oh geez, my bad Valerian. I totally overlooked him saying "non" FW drop pods.. *facepalm*

I'm really looking forward to putting two units of long fangs in a pod loaded out with multi meltas. Can you imagine the look of horror on your enemies face as 10 multi melta toting long fangs jump out of a pod and proceed to blast all their tanks to bits.

That sounds like an incredible idea I had not considered. Good call wolf brother. Towards the end of 6th (right after I started to get a hang of how to build lists with SWs) I was really into the idea of Plasma Cannon/Heavy Bolter long fangs.. all of those meltas coming out of a single pod sound incredible though.

 

We should have a thread where we get 7th out of our system by talking about these kinds of changes.

This sounds like a fantastic idea.

 

Valerian, you sound pretty informed about what's going on with 8th. What is your opinion on how Drop Pods are going to fit into the list? Do you think they'll count towards the total overall number that needs to be kept in reserves? 

[Valerian]

 

 

Valerian, you sound pretty informed about what's going on with 8th. What is your opinion on how Drop Pods are going to fit into the list? Do you think they'll count towards the total overall number that needs to be kept in reserves? 

 

I seriously doubt that was the intent, but it needs an Errata or a FAQ answer from GW to clear that up.  Right now, RAW, drop pods are discreet units from their passengers, so a rules lawyer type would definitely be right in counting the pods as part of your <50% limit on units kept in tactical reserves.

[Garreck]

Of all the changes in 8th...the changes to drop pods really hurt my heart.  I mean, I've made no secret that I think the majority of changes are great and even beneficial but I was seriously in love with the image of drop pods putting my anvil in the enemy's back field and bringing my thunderwolf hammer across the table.

 

I'll adapt and get over it...clearly GW felt they dominated the meta too strongly.  But man. 

 

I can see me using them more to disrupt enemy movement across the field against more assaulty armies (throw out a squad or two of grey hunters in the middle of the field that they either have to move around or deal with directly, while my assault elements position for a counter-charge) or maybe delivering longfangs to advantageous fire positions with the changes to heavy weapon movement.

[Kasper_Hawser]

It isn't just drop pod guys. Generally there are a lot of paradigm shifts, especially in the way of costing. Rhinos also increased quite a bit, Razorbacks also cost the same after PAYING for whatever Heavy Weapon they're carrying.

 

For example, in 5,6,7th edition, the three special weapons used to be costed, in order of cheapest to expensive, flamer, melta then plasma. Now it has been flipped from flamer, PLASMA, and then only MELTA.

 

Combi weapons are no longer the same cost across the board either, they're almost the same cost as their special counterparts.

 

Plasma pistols on the other hand may be a new brand of cheese. They're dirt cheap comparatively now, provided you don't be greedy and overcharge all the time. Bear in mind that now, if you "get hot", you DIE. no matter how many wounds you have. The closest thing I've seen to Instant death so far. Gunslinger Wolf Guard may actually be cost effective if you roll that way.

 

Close combat wise, power weapons got cheaper as well, even Claws which used to cost quite a bit. Even power fists got marginally cheaper.

 

Biggest change which we need to align our thinking is, as the OP said, how much transports to fit into our army. We're going to live in itneresting times, there's almost no way our 5-7th ed list can be adapted to 8th and be cost effective.

 

My happiest observation? Bjorn is finally a TOUGH and KILLY machine, at least compared to other dreadnoughts. What I find most interesting is that he is one of the few which has the rule to IGNORE wounds on 5+, effectively a feel no pain against all wounds, even mortal ones. Hurrah! Buffs the army across the board and gives one additional Command Point.

 

Only problem is he has no pod now. But hey, the plasma cannon is still there.

[TheWolfLord]

 

Valerian, you sound pretty informed about what's going on with 8th. What is your opinion on how Drop Pods are going to fit into the list? Do you think they'll count towards the total overall number that needs to be kept in reserves?

 

 

I seriously doubt that was the intent, but it needs an Errata or a FAQ answer from GW to clear that up.  Right now, RAW, drop pods are discreet units from their passengers, so a rules lawyer type would definitely be right in counting the pods as part of your <50% limit on units kept in tactical reserves.

On the Twitch stream for the 8th edition games last Friday GW confirmed a Drop Pod does count towards the limit so a unit using a Drop Pod counts as 2 deep striking units.

[Yoyo ninja]

The way dedicated transports work now, you can take one for each none DT unit you take. So your Skyclaws can take one, your TWC can take one, even your Landspeeders and predators can take a dedicated transport.

Just thinking out loud really, but the humble Razorback could be a (relatively) cheap way of getting heavy hitting firepower on a (again, relatively) durable platform on the table. A Razorback with twin heavy bolter comes in at 85 and a twin lascannon Razorback is the most expensive variant at 115.

Provided you have the points, you could give every unit that doesn't need a transport a cheap Razorback with heavy weapons to flavour. Extra fire power and extra units on the board for your 50% deployment total.

[Gherrick]

Rhino's can't carry wulfen. It's footnoted for landraiders and our flyers that wulfen can ride, but takes the space of two models. Rhino's not included, which implies they can't ride in the smaller transports. Otherwise, that would mean for rhinos they would only take up a single model cost, since they don't have a rule changing it.