Dark Imperium Spoilers/Plot Summary (Read Along)

[b1soul]

With the advent of the Great Rift, the IoM (even with Bobby's return) looks to be in terribel shape, arguably worse than 13th Black Crusade era

[Ascanius]

I just noticed that the blurb for Andy Clark's Shroud of Night makes reference to Noctis Aeterna, a term which as far as I can tell only appears in Dark Imperium otherwise. Still not clear if it's a time period analogous to "Old Night", a term for being cut off from the Astronomican by the Cicatrix Maledictum, or something else.

[HeritorA]

Noctis Aeterna is the period of time which goes before the Dark Imperium novel and before the end of the Indomitus Crusade.

[JH79]

Warhammer Community has posted a pretty sweet interview with Guy Haley in which he discusses Dark Imperium... it turns out that this is infact Part One in a series of books following the same storyline so Deathguard fans may get to see Mortarion in action sometime soon!

[b1soul]

Part 1 of a series?

 

Sign me up

[bluntblade]

 

 

Guilliman orders Cawl to construct Necron Pylon-ish devices so that the warp storms can be driven back.

I'm soooo tired of Fix-it-all-Cawl...

Likewise

[DukeLeto69]

Not read this yet and TBH in two minds whether I will or not (will certainly wait for paperback). However, lots of things really interest me from a lore perspective but one in particular...

 

so the Indomitus Crusade raged for 100 years before the events of this book. What does that actually mean for the timeline. Is the "current" period therefore 100M42 or did they reset the clock so that all the events in The Gathering Storm took place in 899M41?

[Hrvat]

The answer to that is the following. If your guys in 40k used a calendar saying it was 999.M41 then the events for them take place in 115.M42, but considering the Imperial timekeeping got broken at some point Roboute has been unable to determine what year actually is and it could be anything from early M.41 to early M.42 if we use the calendar under which he was put into stasis. 

[HeritorA]

Part 1 of a series?

 

Sign me up

 

Unsubscribe - DI was horrible. Absolutely pointless. The best example how to write a supplement to upcoming rulebook or codex. Nothing from the 'surprise' range happened, all the events are slow and written only to show the general ticking of the universe.

Who will like it - Ultramarines fans. 'We march for Macragge', 'For Ultramar', - all mentioned 10 times per chapter. All old vanilla smurfs are here - Ventris (simply because), Calgar (cause nice model) and of course papa Smurf with his daddy issues.

Death Guard shown only as a bystanders. Mortarion appeared jsut to squable with Typhus and after that dropped from the equasion for good.

[Kelborn]

I'm curious.

What did you expect to happen? Imagine you'd have the chance of writing DI, what would you've done differently? But keep in mind, RG is currently THE protagonist of the Imperium. Therefore, you would have to include him as well.

 

This one was intended to introduce the new setting. Guy mentioned that there are so many plot strings, etc. which had / could be covered in Dark Imperium.

 

So yeah, this might be generous. But as you said it by yourself: "written only to show the general ticking of the universe (I'm adding this) in this new setting"

 

Now that we know of DI being the first of a series, I can imagine that Guy (will he write all of them or will it be more like TBA, covered by several authors?) or whoever will dive into several aspects as their is still a lot to discover. Most notably the interactions between Astartes and Primaris.

[HeritorA]

I'm curious.

What did you expect to happen? Imagine you'd have the chance of writing DI, what would you've done differently? But keep in mind, RG is currently THE protagonist of the Imperium. Therefore, you would have to include him as well.

 

This one was intended to introduce the new setting. Guy mentioned that there are so many plot strings, etc. which had / could be covered in Dark Imperium.

 

So yeah, this might be generous. But as you said it by yourself: "written only to show the general ticking of the universe (I'm adding this) in this new setting"

 

Now that we know of DI being the first of a series, I can imagine that Guy (will he write all of them or will it be more like TBA, covered by several authors?) or whoever will dive into several aspects as their is still a lot to discover. Most notably the interactions between Astartes and Primaris.

1) Interaction between Primaris and 'old marines' at least shown from the point of a battle, after the battle, human dialogs and training/learning. (Which GENERALLY wasn't done AT ALL by Haley in DI).

2) Good storyline (with fully written characters and POVs from both side) of some direct conflict and not 1 battle > triumph > last battle and some fan-service in-between.

3) Daemons being more DAEMONS. Yes Haley done some scary aspect for them, but chapter about Ku'gath arrival was a bad comedy instead of horror.

4) Less Guilliman. I think a lot of us (especially not the smurfs fans) had enough of him for a long time. In the future I want from the authors to create memorable new characters, who would be build from book to book and not simply dropped poorly developed out of the blue.

5) Do not put old characters created by an author as a fan-filler-service everywhere. It's McNeil fault that 'tradition' is now in almost every BL book  - what was the point of puting Ventris here? He appeared in 1/3 of a chapter for a pointless dialog.

6) Finish narrative plot and do not make abrupt endings and dropped storylines. Do not make abrupt time jumps - dozens of years, centuries etc. etc. (The same fault was done by Haley in the Beheading).

That's just from the most memorable moments that spring to the fore. I think after some consideration it would be in 50 or more points lol

[Kelborn]

hm...valid points indeed, for example Daemons being demonic, etc.

 

But I have to mention that I haven't read it thus far. So I'm in the position to criticize it. From what I've read so far, it seems to me that it's a good staging point for fleshing out the new setting.

 

Imho I think that it would be too detailed / complex for being the introducing novel, if they'd done it like you suggested it. As it is, they can expand upon, one novel dealing with (for example) the Blood Angels and a certain aspect of the new setting, while the third one follows the trails of the Wolfspear and yet another aspect.

 

You know what I mean?

 

I got the impression that GW / BL wanted to keep it rather simple for:

 

1) showing us a Primaris pov and THEN give us some interactions

2) bind potential customers, who got interested because of the Primaris

 

I agree with you that I don't know why Ventris had to appear. Though it's a nice anecdote.

 

Guiliman cannot be ignored these days. He played a crucial role in creating this new Imperium. Therefore, it was necessary to implement him. AND we got some character development as well. He's not the shiny, warrior-ish bureaucrat anymore. He had to question everything he once stood for. But still, he continues for the sake of mankind.

 

And still, it is still possible that the following parts will not include him (or just as a side character, who knows?)

 

Can't comment on the dropped storylines but maybe, they will picked up later on. The time jumps leave us the chance of creating something within this time frame.

 

For me, those time jumps are very welcome. If I want to create a Primaris chapter (which is most likely) within our Liber Astartes community, I got about 112 years (Indomitus Crusade) to play with and create something rather than having a strict timeline.

 

But I agree that these date shenanigans are quite poor. ^^

[HeritorA]

hm...valid points indeed, for example Daemons being demonic, etc.

 

But I have to mention that I haven't read it thus far. So I'm in the position to criticize it. From what I've read so far, it seems to me that it's a good staging point for fleshing out the new setting.

 

Imho I think that it would be too detailed / complex for being the introducing novel, if they'd done it like you suggested it. As it is, they can expand upon, one novel dealing with (for example) the Blood Angels and a certain aspect of the new setting, while the third one follows the trails of the Wolfspear and yet another aspect.

 

You know what I mean?

 

I got the impression that GW / BL wanted to keep it rather simple for:

 

1) showing us a Primaris pov and THEN give us some interactions

2) bind potential customers, who got interested because of the Primaris

 

I agree with you that I don't know why Ventris had to appear. Though it's a nice anecdote.

 

Guiliman cannot be ignored these days. He played a crucial role in creating this new Imperium. Therefore, it was necessary to implement him. AND we got some character development as well. He's not the shiny, warrior-ish bureaucrat anymore. He had to question everything he once stood for. But still, he continues for the sake of mankind.

 

And still, it is still possible that the following parts will not include him (or just as a side character, who knows?)

 

Can't comment on the dropped storylines but maybe, they will picked up later on. The time jumps leave us the chance of creating something within this time frame.

 

For me, those time jumps are very welcome. If I want to create a Primaris chapter (which is most likely) within our Liber Astartes community, I got about 112 years (Indomitus Crusade) to play with and create something rather than having a strict timeline.

 

But I agree that these date shenanigans are quite poor. ^^

Agree with your points. Everything fine - thank you for your opinion.

Also another point - lore is not done as GW diD with GS. Characters (like Cawl) of major proportions and important part to play does not simply drops out of a blue on your head with all the answers - they are build over sometime in codexes,novels,shorts etc.

[Petitioner's City]

Did anyone catch that the primaries aren't taller than the iron warriors? Does this mean they are the same size as all other Marines - indeed, that the models are simulacra but not very accurate ones?

[NKCougar]

Finally read the book. Review with spoilers below.

 

 

From a novel/story perspective, don't think it was very good. Since it has already been covered as to why above, I'll go through what I hope to see from the rest of the series.

 

1. How does Guilliman's preference for Primaris marines rub on the rest of the mainline marines? Was noted that he seemed to be using Primaris as a first resort now, leaving others in the cold.

 

2. He realised that he was nothing but a tool to the Emperor - and understands why. Guilliman has come across understanding of dangers of Chaos, and even notes that he does the same to his sons. How does he go about keeping that from his sons? Do they start to realise it?

 

3. Hopefully his practical/theoretical dialogue concerning the Emperor's godhood dies a horrible death. This is Guilliman we are talking about, he saw what happened the last time a primarch worshipped the Emperor - not talking about Monarchia, talking about the Heresy.

 

4. How much longer will the psycho mechanicus guy be allowed to live? Guilliman knows he is a danger, and is constantly pushing the envelope.

 

5. How does he handle Daemon Mortarion? He got his butt handed to him by Fulgrim, sure he doesn't want to have another 1 on 1 showdown like that. Will this negatively impact his decision making when they take the same field?

 

6. CODEX IMPERIALIS: I am stoked to see this. This could cause the biggest civil war since the Heresy. People in power will not want to make this change.

 

7. Chapters on the other side of the rift: what is happening to the Astartes of Imperium Nihilis?

 

8. VI Legion successor chapter: what will happen when the two meet? The Wolf Brothers will still be known to the VI, so will they be overzealous in their watching of their brother chapter? We know the Primaris Chapter Master of the successors wanted to be with his legion more than anything, so how will the power dynamic between the Chapter Masters settle out? Will he refuse to be cowed by Grimnar and cause strife by trying to make it clear that they are equals, will he be overawed by meeting his home chapter, or will they mesh together and work smoothly?

 

9. I don't necessarily want to see loyalists primarchs come back in this series, but will there be any teasers about the Knight Lord of Caliban / Corax / Dorn / Vulkan? Are we setting up for the end times?

 

10. Last we saw, a century ago the Golden Throne was failing. What is going on now?

 

 

I will be reading the book again because some of my thoughts above are a little half baked and need clarification. After the reading, I will come back and expand on my points.

[DukeLeto69]

So I wonder if Guy Haley is actually writing his own Dark Imperium series or if he is including Shroud of Night, Ashes of Propsero and Cadia Stands amongst this "series"?

[DarkChaplain]

Well, Cadia Stands is a Gathering Storm based novel and Ashes of Prospero is seemingly a sequel to The Thirteenth Wolf and part of the Space Marine Battles successor "Space Marine Conquests". Haley seems to have mentioned that he is writing more himself.

 

 

Finally, exclusively on Warhammer Community, I can reveal to you right now that this story doesn’t end with Dark Imperium. The novel is part one of a series, so there’ll be more to come from me on the matters of Guilliman, Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines, and Mortarion.

[Knockagh]

My limited ed I'd finally on its way to me according to BL servitors. I pay £40 for the premium book and to read it last after the cheapest version is in everyone's electronic hands for days! Sorta feels a tad humiliating!

 

Anyway I've resisted the spoilers and looking forward to getting into it.

[mc warhammer]

REALLY curious to give this a read. that is all

[Ascanius]

Finally read the book. Review with spoilers below.

 

 

5. How does he handle Daemon Mortarion? He got his butt handed to him by Fulgrim, sure he doesn't want to have another 1 on 1 showdown like that. Will this negatively impact his decision making when they take the same field?

 

8. VI Legion successor chapter: what will happen when the two meet? The Wolf Brothers will still be known to the VI, so will they be overzealous in their watching of their brother chapter? We know the Primaris Chapter Master of the successors wanted to be with his legion more than anything, so how will the power dynamic between the Chapter Masters settle out? Will he refuse to be cowed by Grimnar and cause strife by trying to make it clear that they are equals, will he be overawed by meeting his home chapter, or will they mesh together and work smoothly?

 

I expect Guilliman will learn not to try mano e mano combat with a daemon primarch, and fight Mortarion with a division or six.

 

Bjarni wasn't made Chapter Master of the Wolfspear. He was just being assigned to the chapter when the Greyshields were finally broken up and sent to their permanent assignments. What may smooth the way for the Primaris sons of Russ is that they were presumably, like Bjarni, all originally successful aspirants to the Space Wolves before being diverted into the Primaris project.

[NKCougar]

 

 

Finally read the book. Review with spoilers below.

 

 

5. How does he handle Daemon Mortarion? He got his butt handed to him by Fulgrim, sure he doesn't want to have another 1 on 1 showdown like that. Will this negatively impact his decision making when they take the same field?

 

8. VI Legion successor chapter: what will happen when the two meet? The Wolf Brothers will still be known to the VI, so will they be overzealous in their watching of their brother chapter? We know the Primaris Chapter Master of the successors wanted to be with his legion more than anything, so how will the power dynamic between the Chapter Masters settle out? Will he refuse to be cowed by Grimnar and cause strife by trying to make it clear that they are equals, will he be overawed by meeting his home chapter, or will they mesh together and work smoothly?

I expect Guilliman will learn not to try mano e mano combat with a daemon primarch, and fight Mortarion with a division or six.

 

Bjarni wasn't made Chapter Master of the Wolfspear. He was just being assigned to the chapter when the Greyshields were finally broken up and sent to their permanent assignments. What may smooth the way for the Primaris sons of Russ is that they were presumably, like Bjarni, all originally successful aspirants to the Space Wolves before being diverted into the Primaris project.

Hm, I need to go back over that part then.

 

Maybe I confused that with the formation of a chapter after the destruction of the giant space temple.

[HeritorA]

hm...valid points indeed, for example Daemons being demonic, etc.

 

But I have to mention that I haven't read it thus far. So I'm in the position to criticize it. From what I've read so far, it seems to me that it's a good staging point for fleshing out the new setting.

 

Imho I think that it would be too detailed / complex for being the introducing novel, if they'd done it like you suggested it. As it is, they can expand upon, one novel dealing with (for example) the Blood Angels and a certain aspect of the new setting, while the third one follows the trails of the Wolfspear and yet another aspect.

 

You know what I mean?

 

I got the impression that GW / BL wanted to keep it rather simple for:

 

1) showing us a Primaris pov and THEN give us some interactions

2) bind potential customers, who got interested because of the Primaris

 

I agree with you that I don't know why Ventris had to appear. Though it's a nice anecdote.

 

Guiliman cannot be ignored these days. He played a crucial role in creating this new Imperium. Therefore, it was necessary to implement him. AND we got some character development as well. He's not the shiny, warrior-ish bureaucrat anymore. He had to question everything he once stood for. But still, he continues for the sake of mankind.

 

And still, it is still possible that the following parts will not include him (or just as a side character, who knows?)

 

Can't comment on the dropped storylines but maybe, they will picked up later on. The time jumps leave us the chance of creating something within this time frame.

 

For me, those time jumps are very welcome. If I want to create a Primaris chapter (which is most likely) within our Liber Astartes community, I got about 112 years (Indomitus Crusade) to play with and create something rather than having a strict timeline.

 

But I agree that these date shenanigans are quite poor. ^^

Also I forget to mention:

 

1. Issues with retconned lore. And here we have another issue then you start 'new universe' over the still breathing corpse of an old one. BL published a lot of novels in the W40K setting through the years with them following a lore set in stone. So just imagine the point like Guilliman driving his fleet from the bridge of 'Macragge's Honour' Gloriana class flagman… For the people who doesn't know lore I will explain — Macragge's Honour was Guilliman flagman (one of the unique 20 ships presented to Primarchs) in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. During the HH events it was lost in the warp while pursuing Infidus Imperator of Kor Phaeron after the Calth debacle. As old lore stated and BL books (in our case Ultramarines serie about Ventris) in the W40K Ultramarines has 2 SM battlebarges as a flagman — Caesar and Octavius. But guess what — it was all retconned. As it stands from the Dark I. Guilliman drive his new fleet from the bridge of Macragge's Honour', which was kicking from some moment after Primarch wound in M31K! What? If that's the case — some of the old events and battle for Ultramar against M'kar in Ultramarines series would have been ended before they even started. With Gloriana flagman leading Ultramarines fleet. Sigh… And that's just one example how small retcons could ruin the immersion into the setting.

It almost seems that GW doesn't think that fans have imagination and lore knowledge and should take everything on face value. 

2. But most of all the novel struggle with it's own structure. I did not expect from Haley to create a 'boring' book, but that's actually what happened. 4 chapters of really blank dialogs lead to an even more uninspiring 'fight time' scenes with the Primaris marines. In general there are too much 'water' and too few the important events. 

3. Everything that happening on the other side of the new Warp Rift that bissected the Imperium space is simply left to float in the vacuum. It is all mentioned just in one sentence.

4. Overusage of titles and grandeur. After several chapters you would be tired to read the start of another dialog with the list of repeated titles all over again. It's like the author was tasked to drill the titles lineage and pathos into the brains of the reader. Any new appearing character has a presentation with a list to his name. Humans, marines, daemons — everyone…

5. Sisters of Silence — they just popup from nowhere and are numerous. Haley tried to explain that they were almost destroyed during the HH,Scouring and the Beast War but some conclaves (dozens of sisters only survived) existed up to W40K and Roboute Guilliman tried to reinstate the institution. But numerous? They never were. Asctually that's the best example of how GW model sales influence the writing. Cause new Imperial Contingent, cause new models to sell, etc. 

 

I think I will remember other points till tomorrow :)

[DukeLeto69]

The answer to that is the following. If your guys in 40k used a calendar saying it was 999.M41 then the events for them take place in 115.M42, but considering the Imperial timekeeping got broken at some point Roboute has been unable to determine what year actually is and it could be anything from early M.41 to early M.42 if we use the calendar under which he was put into stasis.

 

Hmmm This time shift thingy is a plain weird idea for me.

 

Why not simply advance the timeline and be done with it? Can still be called W40k in the same way 2000AD comic is still called that in 2017 or 20th Century Fox is still the same.

 

Also, what is the "present" for the tabletop game? Is it immediately after The Gathering Storm or at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and the Dark Imperium novel?

[Hrvat]

 

The answer to that is the following. If your guys in 40k used a calendar saying it was 999.M41 then the events for them take place in 115.M42, but considering the Imperial timekeeping got broken at some point Roboute has been unable to determine what year actually is and it could be anything from early M.41 to early M.42 if we use the calendar under which he was put into stasis.

Hmmm This time shift thingy is a plain weird idea for me.

 

Why not simply advance the timeline and be done with it? Can still be called W40k in the same way 2000AD comic is still called that in 2017 or 20th Century Fox is still the same.

 

Also, what is the "present" for the tabletop game? Is it immediately after The Gathering Storm or at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and the Dark Imperium novel?

 

 

I sort of like it, because it shows the real insanity of the 40k. No one knows what date really is but Adeptus Terra think it should be 215.M42, yet RG is like "the math is wrong - try again".

[DarkChaplain]

Does the "present" even matter for the Tabletop anymore? I mean, it was always flexible anyway. It comes with the territory of being able to field special characters that, by rights, should be locked in another part of the galaxy any day of the week (or in some cases very dead).

 

I'd say with regards to Primaris and Primarchs back in the game, anything from Indomitus onward goes. As more gets added, like Mortarion with the Death Guard release, the story will inevitably progress further from campaign to campaign and shift the tabletop forwards as well.

 

But that's one of the reasons I've not been very interested in playing the game for years now (though 8th's rules have me tempted again). There's always been that narrative disconnect in regular games. Campaigns help a lot but getting "authentic" battles together still is tricky with regards to different factions and army composition.