Thoughts on Deathwing after first game of 8th

[themortalgod]

After reading the rules I kinda thought DW still didn't look like they were in a very good spot but figured I'd play a game before I made any conclusions. This afternoon I went up against my buddy's vanilla marines and my feelings are:

1. The new deep strike rules are awesome and certainly of benefit to the Deathwing.

2. The slower movement speed of 5" really sucks. For an army that needs to get into combat to bring much damage that loss of an inch is really rough. You deep strike within 9" for a low odds charge roll, then your opponent just backs up keep the charge just as difficult. Very much a cat and mouse game but this edition the mouse can keep shooting heavy weapons with decent hit odds while it flees.

3. They feel extremely overcosted for what they bring. The new rapid fire 2 storm bolters are pretty satisfying but paying 48pts for a cyclone missile launcher on an already over pointed model is rough. Also since you are always moving you are always at -1 to hit for the really expensive heavy weapons. (or you can stand still and let all those pts you spent on power fists go to waste)

4. A DW force has so little firepower relative to its opponent that you have pretty small threat.

5. The Deathwing Champion is a beast in combat, Deathwing knights also bring the pain if they can make it in. (Though their high cost and lack of speed still makes them feel over costed)

6. In Terminator vs Terminator matchups, whoever charges, wins.

7. The loss of +1 A on a charge feels really rough at times. Terminators do hit hard but they just don't have the volume of swings to be a threat to any horde or large unit.

8. Vindicare Assassins get work done. He was by far the biggest threat in my army.

9. Overcharging Plasma Canons is very risky.

Overall feeling as a whole is that DW feel very much like they did last edition. Super cool but simply not competitive. Points per model is just too high for what they bring to the table and they really only specialize in cutting down elite enemies in close combat. Any horde would laugh at their pitiful number of attacks and weight of shooting still makes the 2+ save feel like paper. Having 2W helps them stick around longer than before but as I'm paying more points per model it didn't feel like much benefit, especially since so much stuff as damage 2 or better making the 2W meaningless. Unfortunately, I just don't see DW being even remotely competitive this edition either unless there are some major changes in an upcoming DA codex.

My main take away is that in some ways they got better and in others got worse leaving them about the same level as they were before.

[gainsay]

I disagree my deathwing unit with an apothecary did a lot of work today. I also love what they did with power fists and chain fists so no more striking last. 

[themortalgod]

I think, in theory a single unit of DW can be stronger as you aren't sacrifcing virtually all your firepower for them. But in my game I lost almost 1000pts in Termintors in a single turn of shooting. (not unlucky rolling, just so much D2 shooting that odds pretty much guaranteed I'd lose many of them) The Terminators that made it to combat did work but most didn't. They are just so easy to avoid or throw chaffe at. What did your Terminators kill? Did they have to weather much shooting? 

 

The striking first is nice, "if" you can get the charge, but their damage potential is lower as a result. You can def erase a strong elite unit with a charge but that 9" charge is only 27" chance. And every tun of shooting you need to take is going to cost you several terminators per squad. 

[RayJ]

Getting a handle on charging is gonna be super important, but that's always been the case with Deathwing being successful.

 

As for ineffective shooting, did you have any characters that enable rerolls? Azrael and Belial both have awesome bubble effects that can put in serious work.

 

Also, Land Raiders Crusaders are probably gonna be required for competitive Deathwing, just from the great protection and fire support they provide.

 

I'm looking at a list utilizing Azrael with 2 crusaders now as a solid core. 40 rerolling shots each with a 4+ invulnerable save is hard to ignore!

[themortalgod]

It wasn't so much poor shooting rolls as lack of shots. Just not much firepower, even if you land every hit. 

 

Personally, I feel like we will be about where we have been for years, against any competitive list we will be shot off the board or spread too thin to ever do much damage. I think if you get lucky with charge rolls you can do some work but thats not something I'd bank on. 

 

Not saying we are unplayable by a long shot but certainly towards the weaker end of the power spectrum as we are used to. Our success is so driven by a few critical charge rolls that the difference between winning and losing can come down to that. 

 

I also suspect against any of the soon to be very popular horde armies DW just won't be able to cut it. Too easy to just lock them in combat with cheap chaffe for the entire game. Even if you roll super lucky they just don't have enough attacks or shots to put much of a dent in a horde. 

Also DW anti-tank capability is sorely lacking, in the game I played my opponent brought a knight, he deployed smartly so I couldn't deep strike anywhere near charge range of the thing. For ~500pts it had more firepower than 1500pts of DW and was a good 2 turns of walking for any of my terminators to have any expectation of charging it. And an Avenger gatling canon cuts through Terminators like butter. I chose not to try to chase it around and just mitigate it as much as possible. But the volume of fire from it and the rest of his army had almost every terminator on the board dead by the end of the second turn and he rolled pretty poorly. I think with good rolling he could have nearly tabled me in 1 shooting phase. 

If you are curious the armies were:

 

1 Int Chaplain in Term armour

1 Ancient

1 Champion

 

5x DW, 1 CF, 1 Assault Canon

5x DW, 1 CF, 1 Cyclone Launcher

 

5x DW Knights

 

5x Marines, plasma gun

5x Marines, plasma gun

5x Marines, melta gun

 

1x Vindicare Assassin. 

 

vs

 

1x Captain

1x Chaplain

 

5x Marines with Missile Launcher

5x Marines with Missile Launcher

5x Marines with Plasma Canon

 

1x Storm Talon with Assault Canons and Heavy Bolters

1x Imperial Knight with Avenger Canon, Stubber, Missile Pod, RF Battle Canon

 

5x Terminators (base kit, no heavy weapon)

 

1x Vindicare Assassin

 

The Marines largely were non factors, (on both sides), they chipped away but no meaningful damage. I charged his terminators and erased them before they could swing. Both Assassins did work mine killed his Captain and Chaplain while his gunned down my Ancient and Assassin. The Storm Talon and Knight lit up the Terminators and through weight of fire reduced them to nothing. 12 shots, hitting on 3+ at -2 AP and 2 damage each mulches terminators. Though, I suspect swapping out the Knight for 500pts of other firepower could easily do similar, it wasn't the knight specifically that was the problem, so much as the amount of firepower it represented. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Termies and 'Raiders both went up in cost in relation to other units. Termies by 12-22%, LRCs by 20% and LRs by 40%. Despite GW saying they just got better, they didn't in relation to cost.

My 15500 point collection increased across the board 11%, that means some went down as TDA and Raiders went up, it's just math, it don't mean nuttin'. Efficiency is very important in matched play.

 

Let GW know so they can sort the points before we pay for a Dex, even tell them you won't buy one until they do. Worth a shot, they have set up the game to allow changes now.