Imagifiers in 8th

[Noeh]

The only thing I would find acceptable about the AoF ruling is that transports with sisters on board could get it. You're basically just giving the AoF to the crew of the vehicle in that case. It feels reasonable and balanced compared to giving an exorcist 2d6 shots at 48".

[Servant of Dante]

I'm not sure how paying 40 points for a 50/50 shot at firing 1 Exorcist twice is that unbalanced.

 

And the Exorcist has a crew of Sisters.

[Noeh]

I'm not sure how paying 40 points for a 50/50 shot at firing 1 Exorcist twice is that unbalanced.

 

And the Exorcist has a crew of Sisters.

The crew aren't able to disembark and don't possess the act of faith ability on their data sheet. That's my point. If something with act of faith is in a vehicle I feel like it could work out like a lot of you seem to think the ability works. Poor wording is just GWs thing. They have been known to excel at it.

[Servant of Dante]

I don't see why having a unit in a transport would change how the transport itself interacts with AoF. They'd have to errata in a line saying that. This would be entirely nonsensical, since units in vehicles don't even count as being on the table, and fluff-wise, all vehicles have Sisters in them anyway, so why should it change when more Sisters get in? Just go one way or the other.

 

But they already would need to errata the Imagifier rule if they don't want it to affect vehicles.

[Noeh]

To be clear, I'm not at all saying that's how it works. But I think it would be a neat way to have it work. The squad inside wouldn't be able to use their AoF while inside a transport, but it would be cool to let the transport use it for the time being instead.

But no, until they release an FAQ saying you can totally use AoF on those things that specifically DON'T have it...I'm not going to be playing by the way a lot of you are reading the poorly written GW rules.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm not sure which way I'll play it. I think I'll talk it over with my friends and see what they think. Maybe try it both ways and see what gives the most enjoyable result for us

 

And hopefully GW will clarify this issue.

[NatBrannigan]

I'll chip in and say GW have tried to balance the ability to double fire exorcists by making it a 50/50 chance, as apposed to a 5/6 chance. I also means that your Imagifier is probably far away from all your other units so it's versatility is reduced.

 

Just my opinion of course, but there does seem to have been some thought out into who gets the more reliable Act of Faith rule and who has just the <order> keyword and needs to rely on Imagifiers.

[Montford]

I for one hope that the Imagnifers will work on Exorcists.

 

If I recall correctly Sisters have not received a new unit, vehicle or a new piece of wargear since 2003. I've been watching a lot of 8th edition games that people have posted to YouTube and while I really like the rules, I'm thinking the Sisters are going to need something to reach being a bit more competitive *without* bringing allies. Having our tank destroyers (because it really plays more like a TD than a tank) have a chance of shooting twice-- which may only be a total of 2 shots!-- is a way that GW can bring up the punch of our Army. If an imagnifer does grant an exorcist a second chance to fire, the average will be 7 shots, so that will be powerful but in no way game breaking.

[Montford]

Additional note:

 

I double checked the Hospitaller to see if their heal would work on an Exorcist, and no it can't, as their ability specifies an infantry unit. Now right above the Hospitaller on the same page is the Imagnifer with no such restriction, which seems to weigh in on the side of allowing the imagnifer to work on an Exorcist, as I would think the same person/team would have written the rules for both, and the imagnifer is not restricted to infantry as the Hospitaller is restricted. Just my $0.02 worth.

[Noeh]

Yet still, no vehicles have the act of faith special rule. Therefore there would be no reason to specifically exclude them. The only things that have the rule are already considered infantry, too.

[Servant of Dante]

Yet still, no vehicles have the act of faith special rule. Therefore there would be no reason to specifically exclude them. The only things that have the rule are already considered infantry, too.

But the only thing that suggests you have to have the AoF rule to benefit from an Imagifier is logic from previous editions imposed onto 8th

[Noeh]

Yet still, no vehicles have the act of faith special rule. Therefore there would be no reason to specifically exclude them. The only things that have the rule are already considered infantry, too.

But the only thing that suggests you have to have the AoF rule to benefit from an Imagifier is logic from previous editions imposed onto 8th

Except that this edition is even more keyword focused than before. Sheets in 8th are working like AoS. Where if you don't have things you don't get them. So it's incredibly hard to assume whether the rule allows vehicles or not.

[Beams]

Exactly. Things are keyword focused. So if it required a keyword, it would have said.

 

Much like it specifies that it needs the order keyword.

[Noeh]

It also says it's an act of faith which has it's own defined rules. Buuuut yeah..still waiting on that FAQ. Not gonna go and cheat intentionally or unintentionally until then.

[Voldrak]

Not sure how this topic turned into such a big debate.

 

The rule is extremely cut and clear and limiting yourself because you wonder if the original intent was something else is imagining barriers for yourselves guys.

 

 

Acts of Faith: The free version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your Army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one ACt of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

 

 

Hand of the Emperor, Divine Guidance, The passion and Spirit of the Martyr are the Acts of Faith in the list.

 

 

1. Need to roll a 2+ on a dice.

2. Requires a unit wth the Act of Faith special rule

3. Cannot use on a unit that already had an Act of Faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units. No range factor involved.

 

 

Saintly Blessing: the 250 points version

 

At the start of any of your turns, you can pick a friendly Adepta Sororitas unit with 6" of Celestine and perform an Act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to perform in a turn.

 

1. Does not require a 2+ on a dice. There's no mention of it and as such is automatic.

2. Requires the  Adepta Sororitas keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units, but limited to within 6 inches of Celestine.

 

 

Simulacrum Imperialis: the 40 points version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 4+ you can pick a friendly Order unit within 6" of this model and perform an act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to use in a turn.

 

 

1. Requires a 4+ to go off.

2. Requires the Order keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can be used on any eligible units, but limited to witin 6 inches of an imagifier.

 

 

 

The breakdown

 

One of them is completely free. No taxes attached to it. No limitations regarding range. However you need a special rule to be able to activate it. We've seen that crusaders have the AoF special rule and can be affected by it, but not by the other two. It may very well be that other units in the future will have this rule.

 

The other two have limitations build into them. You need to be within 6 inches, you are paying points for them that are factored into the model cost and, in the case of the imagifier, it could actually fail. They however counteract those limitation by giving you more flexibility in who can actually be affected.

 

 

I think that this system, when read as written, is simple and well thought out and functions really well. If you want to go fully mechanized, but still want to benefit from the acts of faiths, you are going to be taxing yourself by buying Imagifiers. They have the potential to double the number of shots from your exorcists, but they could also all miss and then it's a lot of points going to waste.

 

The way they have build it also opens the door for many more interesting combination in any potential future codex. You could have Acts of Faith affecting only Characters by specifying their keywords. You could also have huge squads of redemptionists (we can always hope) that have the Act of Faith special rule and could only benefit from the Free One effectively forcing you to make tactical decisions as they could not be affected by Celestine or other sources.

 

 

 

[Servant of Dante]

Thank you for the write up Voldrak :)

 

I think that sums up how I feel about it pretty nicely, too. It's possible that designers' intent was different from the RAW, but I like the system as-written.

 

This is just something I'll talk over with my opponent before playing. I can play it either way, whatever makes a more enjoyable game.

[sedibear]

It's almost as if Sisters players are used to having bad rules and are dumbfounded when given good ones. :P

[Atrus]

Not sure how this topic turned into such a big debate.

 

The rule is extremely cut and clear and limiting yourself because you wonder if the original intent was something else is imagining barriers for yourselves guys.

 

 

Acts of Faith: The free version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your Army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one ACt of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

 

 

Hand of the Emperor, Divine Guidance, The passion and Spirit of the Martyr are the Acts of Faith in the list.

 

 

1. Need to roll a 2+ on a dice.

2. Requires a unit wth the Act of Faith special rule

3. Cannot use on a unit that already had an Act of Faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units. No range factor involved.

 

 

Saintly Blessing: the 250 points version

 

At the start of any of your turns, you can pick a friendly Adepta Sororitas unit with 6" of Celestine and perform an Act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to perform in a turn.

 

1. Does not require a 2+ on a dice. There's no mention of it and as such is automatic.

2. Requires the  Adepta Sororitas keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units, but limited to within 6 inches of Celestine.

 

 

Simulacrum Imperialis: the 40 points version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 4+ you can pick a friendly Order unit within 6" of this model and perform an act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to use in a turn.

 

 

1. Requires a 4+ to go off.

2. Requires the Order keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can be used on any eligible units, but limited to witin 6 inches of an imagifier.

 

 

 

The breakdown

 

One of them is completely free. No taxes attached to it. No limitations regarding range. However you need a special rule to be able to activate it. We've seen that crusaders have the AoF special rule and can be affected by it, but not by the other two. It may very well be that other units in the future will have this rule.

 

The other two have limitations build into them. You need to be within 6 inches, you are paying points for them that are factored into the model cost and, in the case of the imagifier, it could actually fail. They however counteract those limitation by giving you more flexibility in who can actually be affected.

 

 

I think that this system, when read as written, is simple and well thought out and functions really well. If you want to go fully mechanized, but still want to benefit from the acts of faiths, you are going to be taxing yourself by buying Imagifiers. They have the potential to double the number of shots from your exorcists, but they could also all miss and then it's a lot of points going to waste.

 

The way they have build it also opens the door for many more interesting combination in any potential future codex. You could have Acts of Faith affecting only Characters by specifying their keywords. You could also have huge squads of redemptionists (we can always hope) that have the Act of Faith special rule and could only benefit from the Free One effectively forcing you to make tactical decisions as they could not be affected by Celestine or other sources.

This. So much this. This so hard.

[ERJAK]

@Erjak

 

1. Sure. Bet I manage to win ;)

2. See what I said about their erroneous comments about restoring models to existing units vs adding/creating new units.

 

Just because they play tested the game it doesn't mean they automatically know designer intent or that they automatically know every rule by heart. And it wouldn't be the first time play testers might have interpreted a rule one way and designers another.

1. Rofl, no.

 

2. It makes more practical sense to start the edition playing with the weaker interpretation and then expanding once either GW or your appropriate TO has issued a verdict, if the RAW is correct at least. That way you don't end up sticker-shocked when/if they do errata the wording.

[Atrus]

 

2. It makes more practical sense to start the edition playing with the weaker interpretation and then expanding once either GW or your appropriate TO has issued a verdict, if the RAW is correct at least. That way you don't end up sticker-shocked when/if they do errata the wording.

Or we can stick to RAW and play it as its written and enjoy one of the best rules we've seen in years. If it gets an errata later then we simply enjoyed it while it lasted.

 

Personally I feel Voldraks explanation hit the nail on the head and anything more is unnecessary overthinking.

Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth people! If we keep questioning it, GW could take us for a bunch of unthankful whiners for complaining about their clearly well thought out and implemented rule, and take it away muttering "last time we do something nice for you".

Embrace this very thought out rule. Love the favourable rules people!

[taikishi]

@Erjak

1. Sure. Bet I manage to win

2. See what I said about their erroneous comments about restoring models to existing units vs adding/creating new units.

Just because they play tested the game it doesn't mean they automatically know designer intent or that they automatically know every rule by heart. And it wouldn't be the first time play testers might have interpreted a rule one way and designers another.

1. Rofl, no.

2. It makes more practical sense to start the edition playing with the weaker interpretation and then expanding once either GW or your appropriate TO has issued a verdict, if the RAW is correct at least. That way you don't end up sticker-shocked when/if they do errata the wording. And the FLG guys aren't GW employees or GW's official rules/errata team, so take what they say with a grain of salt.

1. 'Nids dish out mortal wounds fairly easily. 2++, re-rollable or not, is worthless when the mortal wounds start flying. Also good luck holding objectives when model count determines who holds what.

2. It makes more sense to play the rule as written and be told you're wrong by design, despite the grumbling it may cause after. It's their fault for not being clear, not ours for taking what they've written as written. That's why errata and rules q&a teams exist in other games.

[Gen.Steiner]

On reflection I think it's pretty clear... if it has <Order> it benefits from the Simulacrum Imperialis.

[ERJAK]

@Erjak

1. Sure. Bet I manage to win

2. See what I said about their erroneous comments about restoring models to existing units vs adding/creating new units.

Just because they play tested the game it doesn't mean they automatically know designer intent or that they automatically know every rule by heart. And it wouldn't be the first time play testers might have interpreted a rule one way and designers another.

1. Rofl, no.

2. It makes more practical sense to start the edition playing with the weaker interpretation and then expanding once either GW or your appropriate TO has issued a verdict, if the RAW is correct at least. That way you don't end up sticker-shocked when/if they do errata the wording. And the FLG guys aren't GW employees or GW's official rules/errata team, so take what they say with a grain of salt.

1. 'Nids dish out mortal wounds fairly easily. 2++, re-rollable or not, is worthless when the mortal wounds start flying. Also good luck holding objectives when model count determines who holds what.

2. It makes more sense to play the rule as written and be told you're wrong by design, despite the grumbling it may cause after. It's their fault for not being clear, not ours for taking what they've written as written. That's why errata and rules q&a teams exist in other games.

1. It's good to have dreams.

2. Do what you want, if you're just playing with friends then it doesn't matter what rules you use, you could use the 5th ed book and probably be fine. If you go to events, check it with the TO beforehand, he says ok you're good to go.

If GW doesn't say anything about it then RAW is the more powerful interpretation; I don't think anyone is arguing that it's not. Just have it in the back of your mind that they might FAQ it and that maybe blowing a bunch of money on simulcrums and repentia should wait until everything settles. That's all I'm saying.

[foxlight713]

 

Not sure how this topic turned into such a big debate.

 

The rule is extremely cut and clear and limiting yourself because you wonder if the original intent was something else is imagining barriers for yourselves guys.

 

 

Acts of Faith: The free version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your Army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one ACt of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

 

 

Hand of the Emperor, Divine Guidance, The passion and Spirit of the Martyr are the Acts of Faith in the list.

 

 

1. Need to roll a 2+ on a dice.

2. Requires a unit wth the Act of Faith special rule

3. Cannot use on a unit that already had an Act of Faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units. No range factor involved.

 

 

Saintly Blessing: the 250 points version

 

At the start of any of your turns, you can pick a friendly Adepta Sororitas unit with 6" of Celestine and perform an Act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to perform in a turn.

 

1. Does not require a 2+ on a dice. There's no mention of it and as such is automatic.

2. Requires the  Adepta Sororitas keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can use on any eligible units, but limited to within 6 inches of Celestine.

 

 

Simulacrum Imperialis: the 40 points version

 

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 4+ you can pick a friendly Order unit within 6" of this model and perform an act of Faith with it. This is in addition to the Act of Faith you are normally allowed to use in a turn.

 

 

1. Requires a 4+ to go off.

2. Requires the Order keyword to be used.

3. Cannot be used on a unit that already had an act of faith used on them.

4. Can be used on any eligible units, but limited to witin 6 inches of an imagifier.

 

 

 

The breakdown

 

One of them is completely free. No taxes attached to it. No limitations regarding range. However you need a special rule to be able to activate it. We've seen that crusaders have the AoF special rule and can be affected by it, but not by the other two. It may very well be that other units in the future will have this rule.

 

The other two have limitations build into them. You need to be within 6 inches, you are paying points for them that are factored into the model cost and, in the case of the imagifier, it could actually fail. They however counteract those limitation by giving you more flexibility in who can actually be affected.

 

 

I think that this system, when read as written, is simple and well thought out and functions really well. If you want to go fully mechanized, but still want to benefit from the acts of faiths, you are going to be taxing yourself by buying Imagifiers. They have the potential to double the number of shots from your exorcists, but they could also all miss and then it's a lot of points going to waste.

 

The way they have build it also opens the door for many more interesting combination in any potential future codex. You could have Acts of Faith affecting only Characters by specifying their keywords. You could also have huge squads of redemptionists (we can always hope) that have the Act of Faith special rule and could only benefit from the Free One effectively forcing you to make tactical decisions as they could not be affected by Celestine or other sources.

This. So much this. This so hard.

 

I'm gonna have to second this aswell