Dreadnoughts - SM or GK?

[Valerian]

Shunt move is a big deal, but Dreadknights don't get it anymore.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, damage in CC if we weight this in the NDKs favour (T5) is on average exactly the same between the pair.  Both have the same number of attacks, AP and Damage.  The only difference is to hit and to wound.

 

The DG hits 5/6 and wounds 4/6

 

The NDK hits 4/6 and wounds 5/6

 

Except the NDK costs 30 points more to do the same...  The DG has *slightly* better shooting, with a Storm Bolter on top of the Heavy Psycannon the both have.

 

So we're now on to survivability.

 

Lets looks at facing Bolters.

 

The DG is wounded on 2/6, fails saves on 2/6 and fails to ignore 5/6 (0.09)

 

The NDK is wounded on 2/6, fails saves on 1/6 (0.06)

 

If we look at S6 that changes to;

 

DG: 2/6, 2/6, 5/6 (0.09)

 

NDK: 3/6, 1/6 (0.08)

 

 

Survivability between the pair is very close!

 

 

Except the Doomglaive is 30 points cheaper.  And can ride in a StormRaven! :P

[Waking Dreamer]

Isn't the Gatling Psilencer of comparable shooting to the Heavy Psycannon? The main difference is that it's better against hordes/blobs while not as good against Primarchs - but always 10 points cheaper. If that's so, that leaves the NDK 20 points dearer, or a flat 30 points for the ability to deepstrike within charge range of a unit, and then 8" movement across the boards afterwards.

[Gentlemanloser]

The new Forgeworld Index has opened up a few new options for me, apart from the Doomglaive.

 

Until FAQed it seems (the explaination is our list prohibits "Space Marine" units, which are a descrete entry in Index 1, but the Forces of the Adeptus Astartes has no "Space Marine' datasheets, only "Adeptus Astartes" datasheets.  So I'm running with it until FAQed! :P

 

The benefit of these options is they can be Chapter Grey Knights.  While they don't get Rites/Smite, as they are Grey Knight units they can be targets of GoI and Hammerhand. :)

 

HQ: Grey Knight Chaplain Dreadnought, Assault Cannon, DCCW, Storm Bolter (183)

 

I think I prefer this over a Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnought for HQ.  His +1A buff bubble would work for all 'Grey Knight' Dreadnoughts.

 

Heavy: Grey Knight Contemptor Mortis, Twin Autocannon x2 (172)

 

Heavy: Grey Knight Mortis Dreadnought, Twin Autocannon x2 (141)

 

I can't decide here which I think is better.  the Contemptor comes with 2+ BS, but has a degredation chart.  Sadly there isn't a Venerable Mortis I could see.

 

I could go for the cheaper Codex Space Marines Contemptor (with Kheres, DCCW, SB - 165), and Venerable SM or GK Dreadnought (with Twin Autocannons - 156 / 176).

 

The GK Venerable would be able to be Gated as well if necessary.

 

Gah choices!!

[Seizeman]

The GK section of the index defines Grey Knights as an Adeptus Astartes chapter, so you should be allowed to pick any space marine vehicles from the forge world index.

 

What +1A buff bubble are you talking about? Chaplain dread only gives +1S to units in the same combat as him.

 

There is a venerable mortis, It's the regular venerable, you can give him 2 autocannons (the only double ranged option it has).

 

If you want shooty dreads, take the regular space marines venerable with lascannon and autocannon. If you want a close combat one, pick the doomglaive. 

 

The doomglaive looks really good. A heavy psycannon on a 2+ guy is great, and a doom glaive is almost as good as a regular dreadnought combat weapon but half the cost. Plus it can have a psychic power so it can gate itself across the field or hammerhand to wound vehicles on 2s.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Shunt move is a big deal, but Dreadknights don't get it anymore. 

 

Ah forgot about that nerf. It's just Teleport Strike initially hey? Annoying, I hope they get it back at some point. 

RD, damage in CC if we weight this in the NDKs favour (T5) is on average exactly the same between the pair.  Both have the same number of attacks, AP and Damage.  The only difference is to hit and to wound.

 

The DG hits 5/6 and wounds 4/6

 

The NDK hits 4/6 and wounds 5/6

 

Except the NDK costs 30 points more to do the same...  The DG has *slightly* better shooting, with a Storm Bolter on top of the Heavy Psycannon the both have.

 

So we're now on to survivability.

 

Lets looks at facing Bolters.

 

The DG is wounded on 2/6, fails saves on 2/6 and fails to ignore 5/6 (0.09)

 

The NDK is wounded on 2/6, fails saves on 1/6 (0.06)

 

If we look at S6 that changes to;

 

DG: 2/6, 2/6, 5/6 (0.09)

 

NDK: 3/6, 1/6 (0.08)

 

 

Survivability between the pair is very close!

 

 

Except the Doomglaive is 30 points cheaper.  And can ride in a StormRaven

 

To hit and to wound matter a lot dude. It's what annoys me heavily about DK's, they should be 2's to hit in melee but for some dumb reason they're only 3's. Also, moving and shooting going down to a 4+ is incredibly lame. I found running them without guns in my last game they did fine, they're a bit less flexible but missing so often sucks. 

 

2+ save is pretty good, I'm glad they didn't lose it in the update. 

 

I'm probably gonna be fielding 1 Raven at best in most games, so only one Doomglaive for me. I still think DK's are a strong unit worth getting, like I said before I think we all just need to take other stuff to compliment them. They're not automatically the best 'big' unit in our book. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, but that's the point with the S9 to S10.

 

One hits on 2+, the other hits on 3+

 

Versus T5, one wounds on 2+, the other wounds on 3+.

 

They both have the same rolls 2+/3+ and 3+/2+.

 

 

What I'm finding most difficult atm is the cost of the Dreadfists / DCCW.  I'm really looking at units that can swap them out, as cheaper shooting options seem to be a better investment.

[Gentlemanloser]

As expected, the RAI is that we don't get any of the Adeptus Astartes goodies from Forge World.

 

As we're more 'specialised'.  I guess our Mortis Dreads are stored in the same place as our Storm Shields in our own Forgeworld. :P

 

So no <Chapter> Grey Knight Dreads other than the two from our Index and the DoomGlaive.

 

With that in mind, is there any point in taking any other Dreadnought  than the DoomGlaive?

 

Doesn't have the range of a Rifleman, but can Gate itself (or be Gated).

 

 

I guess the hack is to use 'normal' Space Marine versions, from the Exorcists, Red Hunters or 'Knights of the Grey' Space Marine chapters...

[Seizeman]

If you really really need long range shooting, regular space marine venerables have virtually no downsides. But if you want something more versatile, doomglaive for sure. Mobility, good melee, good shooting, smite and gets buffed by your hqs. It costs 5 points more than a twin autocannon + ccw space marine venerable for a psychic power, so it's well worth it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I'm going to be using a few Doomglaives.  It's just other types to support them, if necessary.

 

Doomglaives for mid/close range.

 

Maybe some Riflemen for Longrange.  Still can't decide between Ven or Contemptor riflemen...

 

(Which is actually an amazingly *good* thing!  Balance! )

 

I'm not sure other mid/close range Dreads (A Cannon/DCCW variants) are necessary with Doomglaives.  Take another Doomglaive over one of those.

 

Sorry Seize, missed your post above.  Yeah I derped, it's +1S not +1A. ;)

 

I don't think there's a point to the Venerable Mortis (unless you don't want dual twin Auto's) and a normal Venerable can have dual twin Autos.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Zamtro]

Super keen to get my hands on the rules for Doomglaive pattern... Sadly I'll be waiting a few months till I'm in the UK :(

 

Absolutely planning on converting a Achillus model for one though... They looks so goddamn hot!

[Valerian]

I used to have two of those Doomglaive Dreadnoughts.  :(

[Gentlemanloser]

I've got an actual FW MkIV GK Dread.  I still want an Achillus to use as a Doomglaive!

 

Edit: If not 3 or 4!

 

Someone messed up this month.  Didn't process the HR for our move to an academy properly.  Was put on emergency tax and lost loads from my wage slip for this month.

 

I'll get it back at the end of the month they say.  I think I'll be able to persuade the missus to let me treat myself a little and get an Achillus.

 

I'll make sure to post some WiP pics if I do get one! ;)

Edited June 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Zamtro]

I think I'll need to pick up a Leviathan Dread with 2x Storm cannons too... That's some scary output! and 2+ 4++

[Blakklist]

I was wondering, where do I find a Left Arm Twin Autocannon?

[Gentlemanloser]

I think they're called 'mortis' autocannons on FW site.

 

But not sure.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I picked up a MkIV GK Dread off ebay. Once it arrives I'm gonna give it some test games. Will need to get my Raven build in the meantime as a delivery system. 

 

FYI, I'm not really bothering with autocannons in this edition. They're not bad, they just won't do as much damage to big stuff as las+missile combo. I'm actually considering ditching guns entirely on everything except Dreads, due to how the -1 to heavy weapons on the move is so annoying.

[Seizeman]

I agree with autocannons, they are good, just not specialised enough to deal good damage. And the missile launcher is even worse, he is inferior to the autocannon agains every single target.

 

By the way, one of the differences with 7th edition that people will soon realise is you don't need to kill vehicles to deal with them anymore, just ram them. Once your razorbacks/rhinos have deivered the troops, just charge your enemy shooty vehicles to disable them. Specially against armys like imperial guard that park their vehicles tightly on a corner, it is pretty easy to lock 2 or 3 of their vehicles with a transport, and most of the time they can't even fall back, and then you just win. That also means the opponent can't really ignore your transports and must waste their fire on them.

 

This does not work agains flyers, but most of them are fragile and easy prey to our regular shooting.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree with autocannons, they are good, just not specialised enough to deal good damage. And the missile launcher is even worse, he is inferior to the autocannon agains every single target.

 

Hasn't been my experience, its great against single targets with a lot of wounds. D6 damage is nice, its basically a third weaker AP lascannon shot.

By the way, one of the differences with 7th edition that people will soon realise is you don't need to kill vehicles to deal with them anymore, just ram them. Once your razorbacks/rhinos have deivered the troops, just charge your enemy shooty vehicles to disable them. Specially against armys like imperial guard that park their vehicles tightly on a corner, it is pretty easy to lock 2 or 3 of their vehicles with a transport, and most of the time they can't even fall back, and then you just win. That also means the opponent can't really ignore your transports and must waste their fire on them.

 

Transports don't worry me so much. It's stuff like Knight-Titans or large monsters rolling around with 20+ wounds. You'll need heavy weapons to deal with that, and our Dreads are now actually able to deliver on it.

[Seizeman]

Anecdotal evidence is not relevant, Math does not lie. A missile launcher averages 1 wound against a rhino and it is worse agains EVERYTHING than the twin autocannon, so if you don't like the autocannon, it is absurd that you like the missile launcher.

 

If you are worried about knights, a missile launcher averages 0.96 wounds against it (if shot by a venerable). Just a smite averages  0.83. A single 5-man strike squad deals almost the same damage just with their bolters. So shooty dreadnoughts aren't a solution to knights unless you field like 4 or 5, and in that case, better pick stormravens.

 

If you want to deal with a knight you have to either ignore it or throw your infantry at him and kill it with smite + melee. If the knight stays back, you can just ignore it for the most time as their shooting is really poor (for their cost), and if he blocks the middle of the battlefield (which is what it should do), just multicharge it instead of bothering with long range fire.

 

Transports are problematic because they counter our amazing anti-infantry fire by hiding the troops, and provide mobility which is bad for grey knights as we don't have that much mobility ourselves and we want to be able to charge.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 Anecdotal evidence is not relevant, Math does not lie. A missile launcher averages 1 wound against a rhino and it is worse agains EVERYTHING than the twin autocannon, so if you don't like the autocannon, it is absurd that you like the missile launcher.

 

(shrug) It's a D6 damage weapon, so I doubt that's true. Autocannons can only do 1 damage per shot and only impose -1 to enemy saves. 

If you are worried about knights, a missile launcher averages 0.96 wounds against it (if shot by a venerable). Just a smite averages  0.83. A single 5-man strike squad deals almost the same damage just with their bolters. So shooty dreadnoughts aren't a solution to knights unless you field like 4 or 5, and in that case, better pick stormravens.

 

Well I'd use both obviously, but its a D6 damage missile every turn. Smite can fail, be denied or Peril on me. 

 

I am planning on getting a Raven, but I doubt most lists will have multiples. They're pretty expensive. 

If you want to deal with a knight you have to either ignore it or throw your infantry at him and kill it with smite + melee. If the knight stays back, you can just ignore it for the most time as their shooting is really poor (for their cost), and if he blocks the middle of the battlefield (which is what it should do), just multicharge it instead of bothering with long range fire.

 

Haven't fought on yet in 8th edition, but I'm sure at least some of the variants are fine as a shooting platform. Paladin was always questionable because the battle cannon didn't do much except mulch infantry. The plan would be to soften it up with Venerable Dreads then finish them off with a Dreadknight or Doomglaive. 

Transports are problematic because they counter our amazing anti-infantry fire by hiding the troops, and provide mobility which is bad for grey knights as we don't have that much mobility ourselves and we want to be able to charge.

 

Which is why you need weapons that deal lots of single target damage, to crack them open. Autocannons don't really do that, they're much better at hating on 1-wound infantry. 

[Seizeman]

It is sad that you try to argue when you don't even know that autocannons do 2 damage. Basically everything you said is worthless.