8th Edition Legiones Astartes (29/06: I - XX)

[Supe robot gangster #1]

thinking more on the subject of multiwound astartes, with how 8th has changed wound allocation, I'm actually fine with it now. There isn't any real risk of spreading damage around to the point that a 20 Man Squad takes 20 wounds and thus reduces each model to 1W each since you HAVE to allocate every remaining wound to an already-wounded model until it dies at which point you pick a new unwounded model.

 

The only thing is that if basic Astartes are 2W, does that make basic Terminators 3W and special terminators that were 2W in 6/th 4W?

I think it'd be best to leave them at 3W a pop. Anymore than that are they become more beastly than automata. I'm more than happy with multi-wound marines, especially compared to auxilla. Although would that mean the stats for certain automata would need to be redone, or would they stay the same?

[Slips]

Some robots might need slight redesigns, the worst offender being the criminally slow Vorax and Domitar but otherwise, would only really need 2-3 more wounds each on average, imo.

[apologist]

Personally, I'd put Terminators that are currently 1W at 2W (following the 40k convention), and bump Terminators that are currently 2W (Sekhmet etc.) to 3W - thus leaving them differentiated, but with a more graduated 'survivability curve'.

 

Regarding slow robots, the move stat provides a very neat way of fixing that - we might look at Dreadnought speeds for guidance.

[Kais Klip]

Since we're entertaining the subject, why are we raising the baseline of wounds? Average wounds across the game should go down, not up. 8th E increased the wounds of characters and terminators to make them more survivable compared to your base grunts; why do you want your grunts to be more survivable, raising their base wound count merely raises the baseline to the new norm. Logically, bolt guns being rapid fire 2 would follow.

 

You always lower to the lowest common denominator; and if you have to increase anything you increase your outliers (Captain, Terminsator).

 

Though can you imagine space marines with hull points?

[Caillum]

I've just finished editing the 40k Space Marines Index template for Quartermaster, so I'm pretty much full bottle on Marine unit profiles now. There's more than a few AoS rules that have ported over, like the wound allocation Slips mentioned. I think most units' statlines can be ported over from their closest current 40k incarnations to a Heresy version. Here's a bit of a rundown on the stats for units that are in the Heresy...

 

Move is easy:

- standard Infantry are 6".

- Jump Pack are 12".

- Jet Pack are 8" (see Tau).

- Tartaros Terminators are 6".

- Cataphractii Terminators are 4".

- other Terminators are 5".

- Bikes & Jetbikes (see Sammael) are 14".

- Dreadnoughts are 6".

- Land Speeders are 16".

- Contemptors are 9"/6"/4" (reducing profile)

- Rhinos, Predators & Whirlwinds are 12"/6"/3" (reducing profile).

- Vindicators & Land Raiders are 10"/5"/3" (reducing profile).

- Basilisks (see Astra Militarum) are 12"/8"/4" (reducing profile).

- Baneblade chassis' (see Astra Militarum) are 10"/7"/4" (reducing profile).

- Drop Pods are 0". :P

 

WS and BS are very much what they were originally, but instead of a 4 it says 3+. Vehicles all gained a WS value (where they didn't have one), but it's often only a 6+.

 

Strength is pretty much the same; Dreadnoughts are still S6, Marines are still S4. Difference is with Vehicles gaining a Strength value (where they didn't have one):

- Land Speeders are S4.

- Rhinos, Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators & Basilisks are S6.

- Land Raiders are S8.

- Baneblades are S9.

 

Toughness is like Strength with regards to Vehicles:

- Land Speeders are T5.

- Drop Pods, Basilisks & Thunderfires (read: Rapiers) are T6.

- Dreadnoughts, Contemptors, Rhinos, Predators & Whirlwinds are T7.

- Vindicators, Land Raiders & Baneblades are T8.

Also, Bikers have +1 Toughness like before. Jetbikes now have the BIKER and FLY keywords, so gain the same benefit.

 

Wounds are interesting:

- Bikers gain an extra Wound. This is nice.

- Terminators of all types have +1 Wound. On units, this should be a flat 2 Wounds, IMHO. Firedrakes, Justaerin & Sekhmet don't really need 3 Wounds, but Lernaeans, Gorgons & Legion Terminators would gain a lot out of 2 Wounds. Use their wargear, special rules and (eventual) Legion Keywords to differentiate them.

- Characters have 4 Wounds base. This is good for Centurions, Consuls, Apothecaries (Primus Medicaes) & Techmarines (Forge Lords). Captains (Praetors) have 5 Wounds. Guilliman has 9, so that's a good baseline for other Primarchs.

- Vehicles have a LOT of Wounds. Everything pretty much tripled: Baneblades have 26, Land Raiders have 16, Predators/Vindicators/Whirlwinds/Basilisks have 11, Rhinos/Contemptors have 10, Drop Pods/Dreadnoughts have 8, and Land Speeders have 6.

 

Attacks haven't changed too much. You don't gain an extra attack for having two Melee weapons or a Pistol (except for certain weapons), but you can divide you attacks between your Melee weapons, like Horus' [i[Weapon Mastery rule. Vehicles all gained an Attacks value too (if they didn't have one) - 3 on a Rhino at full health, for instance. Charge that Rhino first to soak up the fire!

 

Leadership is very much a different stat to what it used to be, with Morale checks being like Battleshock in AoS:

- Standard Marines and Land Speeders only have Ld7.

- Veterans, Terminators, Apothecaries, Techmarines and most Vehicles have Ld8.

- Veteran Sergeants, other (better) Characters and Land Raiders have Ld9.

- Ld10 is very rare. Only Guilliman has it.

 

Saves are mostly the same for those that had them, with Vehicles again being the difference. Pretty much all Vehicles have a 3+ save, with Land Raiders having a 2+ save.

 

We've seen the Forge World datasheets for Spartans and Leviathans, so you can pretty much copy and paste them (with some de-Chaosification). Pretty sure the Butcher cannon array is meant to be the Leviathan storm cannon.

 

Regarding the wound increase... this is a mechanic they've applied across the whole gamut of 8th Ed Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures and Characters. All of them are more survivable, with a lot of weapons not having the same impact they used to (no 1-shotting a Land Raider with a lucky 6, for instance). Terminators and Bikes getting extra Wounds I've already discussed. But this Wound increase shouldn't apply to baseline Marines - no reason for it.

 

Hope all of this helps creating some Heresy profiles Apologist! :)

[jaxom]

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)

 

Bring Them Down: The Dark Angels excel at felling monstrous creatures and foul xenos the likes of which could not be imagined. Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when they roll a 6+ To Hit and automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword.

 

....

(2CP) Legion of Unity: No one knows exactly what happened to the Thunder Warriors, just that they were gone and the First Legion stood in their place. Activate this before a unit makes it's attacks. The unit's attacks deal an additional point of Damage on a To Wound roll of 6.

Bring Them Down needs to be re-worded because I just realized it was misinterpreted, hence Legion of Unity ending up as it is. It seems you read it as both parts (bonus damage and Morale perk) of Bring Them Down only apply when fighting a Monster whereas I intended: Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when roll a 6+ To Hit; and, they automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword. This would make Legion of Unity somewhat redundant, but I'm okay with how you have it. Either way, wording needs to be tightened to avoid confusion.

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)

 

Hexagrammaton Stratagem - The Dark Angels have an additional stratagem, based on the 'wing aura assigned to the army's Warlord character:

• Ravenwing - (2CP) Terran Engineering: Activate during the movement phase. One unit doubles it's moving distance.
• Firewing - (2CP) Duty Before Death: Activate just after allocating damage on a unit. Ignore that damage for one Battleround, allocating it during the same phase next Battleround.
• Stormwing - (2CP) Breaching Counterattack: Instead of firing Overwatch, the unit gains additional attacks and makes it's attacks at the same time as the charging enemy unit(s), counting as having charged for all intents and purposes.
• Dreadwing - (2CP) Weapons of Old Night: Activate before a unit makes it's shooting attacks. The unit's ranged attacks re-roll To Wound, as well as causing the user a single Mortal Wound for every To Hit roll of 1.
• Ironwing - (2CP) Touched by the Emperor: Pick a vehicle and roll a D6. On a 4, it regains 1 wound, on a 5 it regains D3 wounds, and on a 6 it regains D6 wounds. On a roll of 1, the vehicle may be controlled by your opponent and counts as an enemy unit during his next Battleround.

 

EDIT: Again, parts didn't save 

 

• Ravenwing: I think we need to keep brainstorming. I'd rather save something like this for White Scars.
• Firewing: I'd simplify it to more of an eighth edition sensibility; (cribbing from Disgustingly Resilient) "Each time a model in the unit loses a wound, roll a d6; on a roll of a 5 or 6, the model does not lose that wound."
• Stormwing: Simultaneous initiative doesn't really work well in eighth edition. I'd keep the rest of it though (the +1 attack and the counting as charged for other effect purposes).
• Dreadwing: I'm not a fan of spending CP and there being a chance something bad will happen. I understand the narrative "get's hot" idea, but I'd reduce the cost to 1 CP if there's going to be any risk associated with the Stratagem.
• Ironwing: I'm guessing the narrative is based on the Emperor/Omnissiah fixing a Knight with a touch when he arrived on Mars? It just doesn't strike me as very Astartes; too much superstition and not enough superhuman soldier. I am also very against a Stratagem where there's even a remote chance the opponent gets something as useful as controlling one of your units (also, not sure where that fits the narrative; if it's a question of balancing power I'd just go with only fixing 1d3 wounds).

Edited June 11, 2017 by jaxom

[Kais Klip]

Well the good thing about Bring Them Down and Legion of Unity is it allows for 6s on both To Hit and To Wound to deal double damage; extremely effective against Monsters, and yet completely pointless against line units, since 1/2/3 damage has no difference to a 1 wound model, and still only requires 1 save to be made. It seems like a very elegant way of boosting damage against monsters without impacting anything else the wrong way. We get bonus points for not even having to mention Monster, so the rules do rather than say. ]

 

The only problem with stacking Damage would be vs characters, but we are lucky in that it would be rare for them to be targeted, and when they are, well... Monsters come in all shapes and sizes, right? 

 

It's a shame you didn't like the Hexagrammaton Stratagems, seeing as your name is next to "Dark Angels" I'll re-do the Hex' stratagems in their entirety.

 

Ironwing, and to a lesser extent, Ravenwing, was more supposed to convey the sort of creepy Terran-mechanicus vibe, and yes you were right in my inspiration from the knight story (when knights were actually cool and read as if they belonged to 30k and not Titanfall). 

 

Edit: How about these (we/i also forgot about the Deathwing lol) 

 

Keep in mind that all of these are In Addition to a supplementary Stratagem rewarded by 'wing force organisation/RoW. I want these to feel like little tricks made available by the army's Warlord; the specific 'wing may not be deployed, but it is still influenced by units that are part of the organisation.

 

Deathwing - (3CP) Pride of the Firstborn: Activate at any time. Your force ignores Battleshock tests of all kind for the entire Battleround. 

 

Ravenwing - (3CP) No Escape: One Jetbike, Outrider, Speeder or <flyer> in your Reinforcement pool may enter the game from your opponent's table edge. Your comment about keeping the previous proposal for White Scars was exactly the point; I want these to feel like lesser versions of the later, more specialized Legions. But here's an alternative anyway. 

 

Firewing - I'm assuming they're horde exterminators.

Option 1: (1CP) Burn Them Out: Roll two dice and pick the highest when using a template weapon (seems more like a passive ability). 

Option 2: (2CP) Turbis Fire Rounds: Activate before a unit with 'Bolt' weapons fires; weapon profile gains D3 damage and -1 Strength. 

Option 3: (1CP) Turbis Fire Rounds: One unit's ranged attacks gains 'Deflagrate' for this Battleround. 

 

Stormwing - Really want something game-changing for Zone Mortalis

Option 2: (3CP) Phase Field Generator: Activate during the movement phase; pick the unit up and put it down anywhere within the move distance of it's previous position. 

Option 3: (3CP) Breaching Counter-Tactics: Activate instead of firing Overwatch at a target unit; the Dark Angels unit moves into base contact and counts as having successfully completed a charge. 

 

Dreadwing - Nasty weapons, even basic tactical squads have something nasty up their sleeves

Option 1: (2CP) Acid Rounds: Activate before a unit with 'bolt' weapons makes it's shooting attacks. Roll a d6 to decide the unit's AP -[X]. On a roll of a 5 or 6 double it's Damage. 

Option 2: (2CP) Weapons of Old Night: Activate before a unit makes it's shooting attacks. The unit's ranged attacks re-roll To Wound. 

I like the above because it can represent the precursor to the Death Guard's chem flamers, as well as regular but nasty bolter rounds. 

 

Ironwing

Option 1: (2CP) Ancient Animus: Pick a Vehicle; depending on the phase in which you've activated this Stratagem, you may immediately repeat the previous action with the vehicle. 

Option 2: (1CP) Iron & Flesh: Activate at any time: any units within 12" of a Vehicle ignore Battleshock checks for the entire Battleround. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Kais Klip

[jaxom]

Sorry, if the reply seems abrupt, but I just lost the entire post I wrote 

 

I misunderstood Legion of Unity. Reading your explanation, I completely agree.

 

I like Deathwing and Ravenwing 

 

Firewing is odd duck (no explicit details on their role as of yet), but I don't think of them as exterminators because Dreadwing, but they could be.

 

I like Option 3 for Stormwing.

 

I like Option 1 for Dreadwing.

 

I like Option 1 for Ironwing, but it seems too powerful (superheavy shooting twice!).

[apologist]

Much appreciated, Caillum – nice summary :)

 

Work continues apace on converting – I had a go at some sample general and Legion-specific army building here – would like to hear your thoughts.

 

 

More through the link above.

[Kais Klip]

Big fan of the work and especially the layout, Apologist. 

 

Apologies for the recent loss of momentum on this thread. Our group has had our game with the existing rules as they are, and everything went great; even better than First Book Horus Heresy in 7th edition. 

 

The idea of battleshock is still slightly off to my mind, but it works great in close combat, and the fall back mechanics bring an entire new level of depth to the gameplay; we will work towards introducing a core potentiality of Mortal Wounds for all units when breaking from melee, though. 

 

Otherwise, yeah, the Legions that we play are all covered by the Draft 1 work on the OP, so my particular interest towards filling out the other legions has stymied, unless we get some specific requests in. 

 

Apologist, your work on your blog really is brilliant, I'd ask that you keep it up mate, we're looking to use your Stratagem-centric idea for our next game to see what works out smoother and even better than the games we had. If the next Legions you cover could hover closer towards the IIIrd, VIIth, VIIIth, Xth and XIIth Legions, I'd owe you a little internet IOU ;) 

 

I do want to emphasis that I'm a massive fan of your layout, and its a shame for all that work to go out unrewarded. It would be difficult, but if you have any ideas to put out a little list building App for either desktop or mobile, send a PM, I'd love to lend you some support to back up the idea. For now though, I'll make sure to point my guys towards your blog buddy.

[apologist]

[...]

Apologist, your work on your blog really is brilliant, I'd ask that you keep it up mate, we're looking to use your Stratagem-centric idea for our next game to see what works out smoother and even better than the games we had. If the next Legions you cover could hover closer towards the IIIrd, VIIth, VIIIth, Xth and XIIth Legions, I'd owe you a little internet IOU

 

I do want to emphasis that I'm a massive fan of your layout, and its a shame for all that work to go out unrewarded. It would be difficult, but if you have any ideas to put out a little list building App for either desktop or mobile, send a PM, I'd love to lend you some support to back up the idea. For now though, I'll make sure to point my guys towards your blog buddy.

 

Thanks very much The project is a bit of fun for me, so happy to steer towards Legions that will see some playtesting if it's helpful. Spoilered for size; here are the Emperor's Children and Imperial Fists: 

 

Emperor's Children

(Not sure why the layout's gone skinny; might have to look into that!)

 

Imperial Fists

 

If these are helpful to you, I'll look into the Night Lords and Iron Hands next.

 

+EDIT+

Oh, and a quick update on building your army, to make the 'standard' Line Company a bit more attractive and Tactically flexible.

 

+++

Regarding a list-building App, I don't have the faintest idea of such technomancy, but would be very happy to help if you and your group want to work up some points etc!

+++

Edited June 20, 2017 by Apologist

[Supe robot gangster #1]

I'm having a lot of trouble reading all your stuff apologist! Granted I'm only on my phone, but almost all your images are to blurry to read on phone format! But what I can read is looking good so far!

[apologist]

Ah, sorry about that

[Kais Klip]

Due to increased interest elsewhere on the internet, this work is officially back online : )