Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Aqui]

I had my first two games of 8th edition recently at Warhammer World at a meet with some UK and European Moderators (and Admin). My Sisters chainswords were a bane in both games. Sure, they didnt make the wielders unstopable, but it did lend a seriously decent hand in close combat. One significant encounter was my Canoness against a Black Templar EC. Her chainsword helped out a lot there. Aside from that, my Seraphim and Canoness too out an Assault Cannon Razorback in one turn (6 wounds dealt by the Seraphim, but were minced by the A.C., and my Canoness' Inferno pistol took the other 4 wounds). Bear in mind the games we played as a whole were mostly around 500 points (so that everyone weren't burdened by big cases).

 

I'm quite happy with how Sisters are in this edition. It's not perfect, and we're not OP either, but still we have more than a few things in our arsenal that will give most armies pause for thought.

[taikishi]

Also just noticed that units that can fight twice don't have to be picked twice in a row. This means units that fight twice that charged get two chances to fight before non-charging units, while units that fight twice that didn't charge get the following setup. Assume it's player A's turn and his Penitent Engines are still engaged in combat:

 

* All of player A's units that charged strike

* Player A chooses his Penitent Engines. After the fight, the player rolls a 4 they immediately pile in

* Player B chooses one of his units to go

* If the Penitent Engines are still alive after Player B chooses his unit, Player A can now choose his Penitent Engines to swing a second time OR choose something else. If he has nothing else to choose, Player A must choose his Penitent Engines.

 

The same is true on a charge, so you can come back to a unit of PEs that charged, but since your opponent gets to interrupt their second swing if he so chooses....

[A.T.]

The rules for the penitent engines state that they immediately pile in and attack - so no delay, just part of the same activation.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

 

Penitent Engines don't get to fight twice: they "... immediately Pile In and attack for a second time" on a roll of 4+ after their first set of attacks has been completed. This is nothing like Khorne Berserkers who have a rule that explicitly states that they "...can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once." Penitent Engines don't get to fight twice, they simply get to make a second round of attacks.

 

Why would "immediately" apply to the Pile In move but not the attacks?

 

Edit: Seems you just beat me to the punch, A.T.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Brightstar

[Beams]

Sidebar:

 

I ran a Cannoness with an eviscerator, a squad of 9 celestians (superior with psword), a mistress with a sqaud of nine Repentia and two Repressors to put them in, with Celestine tanking and giving 5++'s.

 

It was super powerful and super fun in close combat. Repentia melt literally anything they come into contact with, but also melt once they are hit, so you do have to worry about that.

[Montford]

It's unfortunate that the Command Squad got written out. it could have been interesting to see exactly what you could do with a squad of 5 girls you could completely customize the wargear on.

 

I agree. I used one such squad with 5 Heavy Flamers against an ork army. It was glorious.  

[dracpanzer]

I liked the command squad for a batch of condemnor boltguns. They should have just given that unit the Celestian title...

[ERJAK]

Huh, so my Dominion Superiors are going to be carrying some kit, combi-melta, plasma pistol, and power axe.

 

Question, do people prefer power axes for reducing enemies save or power mauls to have a better chance to wound?

Not a question of preference. Axe is better until swinging at T8, then sword is better. Maul is pretty much never the best option.

[taikishi]

That's factually wrong and I have the data to back it up and have already shared it twice -- once here and once at Dakka Dakka. In most situations, the axe is the better option but the maul is the best option against T8 unless you're swinging at Land Raiders, then the maul and sword are equal.

 

 

* Against T3, the only time the sword is better than either weapon is against an Inquisitor in Terminator Armor. Against everything else, the axe is always the better option.

 

* Against T4, the maul is better against lightly armored targets (4+ or worse). The axe is better than the sword against MEQ and TEQ because of its higher chance to wound

 

* T5 is an odd point. The sword is your best option against 4+ saves or better, the maul against 5+ and 6+ saves

 

* T6 and 7, the axe is always the best option because of the sword wounding on 6s and the maul having a lower save modifier.

 

* T8 is all maul for any save but 2+ because it's still wounding on 5s where the other weapons wound on 6s. Against 2+, it's do you want more chances to wound or more chances for a failed save.

 

* If it has an invulnerable save, the maul is always better because it isn't hurt as badly by the fixed save as the other two weapons are.

 

 

Here's the data, again

 

Tabs for Canoness, Superiors, Superiors near a Canoness, and Canoness vs invul. I never got around to mathing out Superiors vs Invul saves but based on everything else, I doubt the maul in the hands of a superior is going to fall behind against invulnerable saves even with the lower chance to hit and fewer attacks.

[taikishi]

Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

 

Penitent Engines don't get to fight twice: they "... immediately Pile In and attack for a second time" on a roll of 4+ after their first set of attacks has been completed. This is nothing like Khorne Berserkers who have a rule that explicitly states that they "...can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once." Penitent Engines don't get to fight twice, they simply get to make a second round of attacks.

 

Why would "immediately" apply to the Pile In move but not the attacks?

 

Edit: Seems you just beat me to the punch, A.T.

 

To answer you both:

 

 

 

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do the fight for a second time?

 

A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

 

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both times before any units that did not charge. If the unit did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with, then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then you can select your unit to fight with for the second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit's opportunities to fight - unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with).

 

Note that any rule which interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive Strategem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes ability) may be used to fight in between the unit's first and second 'fight'.

 

It seemed pretty clear to me last night, though now I'm not as certain. Probably yet another thing that needs to be FAQ'd.

[A.T.]

It seemed pretty clear to me last night, though now I'm not as certain. Probably yet another thing that needs to be FAQ'd.

 

The berzerkers wording is quite different - they are simply permitted to fight twice in each Fight phase. The FAQ just clarified when during phase those two fight actions could be taken.

 

For the penitent engine the rules already make clear when the second fight action is taken - "immediately".

[ERJAK]

That's factually wrong and I have the data to back it up and have already shared it twice -- once here and once at Dakka Dakka. In most situations, the axe is the better option but the maul is the best option against T8 unless you're swinging at Land Raiders, then the maul and sword are equal.

 

 

* Against T3, the only time the sword is better than either weapon is against an Inquisitor in Terminator Armor. Against everything else, the axe is always the better option.

 

* Against T4, the maul is better against lightly armored targets (4+ or worse). The axe is better than the sword against MEQ and TEQ because of its higher chance to wound

 

* T5 is an odd point. The sword is your best option against 4+ saves or better, the maul against 5+ and 6+ saves

 

* T6 and 7, the axe is always the best option because of the sword wounding on 6s and the maul having a lower save modifier.

 

* T8 is all maul for any save but 2+ because it's still wounding on 5s where the other weapons wound on 6s. Against 2+, it's do you want more chances to wound or more chances for a failed save.

 

* If it has an invulnerable save, the maul is always better because it isn't hurt as badly by the fixed save as the other two weapons are.

 

 

Here's the data, again

 

Tabs for Canoness, Superiors, Superiors near a Canoness, and Canoness vs invul. I never got around to mathing out Superiors vs Invul saves but based on everything else, I doubt the maul in the hands of a superior is going to fall behind against invulnerable saves even with the lower chance to hit and fewer attacks.

TL:DR, don't take powerweapons on superiors because you're wasting points that could be spent on stormbolters.

[taikishi]

Problem is you're more likely to end up in melee this edition than last. Those points on a power weapon can be well spent. Against non-Monsters/non-Vehicles, a single storm bolter is only going to force between 0.44 and 1.78 armor saves a turn depending on the target's toughness and whether or not you're in rapid fire range. That's also not counting being within 6" of a canoness. Against MEQ in rapid fire range, that's  ~0.30 unsaved wounds a turn. You have an ~4% higher chance of an unsaved wound with a power axe or maul and an ~1% lower chance with a power sword.

 

If it weren't for how much more favorable this edition is to melee atm I'd entirely agree with you. Now? Both if you can afford it? Though I'd still rather have bodies first.

Edited July 3, 2017 by taikishi

[ERJAK]

Problem is you're more likely to end up in melee this edition than last. Those points on a power weapon can be well spent. Against non-Monsters/non-Vehicles, a single storm bolter is only going to force between 0.44 and 1.78 armor saves a turn depending on the target's toughness and whether or not you're in rapid fire range. That's also not counting being within 6" of a canoness. Against MEQ in rapid fire range, that's  ~0.30 unsaved wounds a turn. You have an ~4% higher chance of an unsaved wound with a power axe or maul and an ~1% lower chance with a power sword.

 

If it weren't for how much more favorable this edition is to melee atm I'd entirely agree with you. Now? Both if you can afford it? Though I'd still rather have bodies first.

The issue is that you might end up IN melee but SoB aren't often going to end up alive to swing and not many units are worth the 2CP to interrupt something.

[Montford]

If my Sisters survive being charged, they will fire their pistols in the shooting phase and then melee in the fight phase, and trust in the Emperor!

[Sir_Gaea]

Well, I had a BSS survive getting charged by a, that one tunneling Tyranid creature. Granted, only 2 survived and bolt pistols did not due anything so that is what is making me consider Power Axes and Plasma Pistols for all, along with a storm bolter/ combi-melta.

[foxlight713]

Curious,  Thoughts on Bolt pistol/plasma pistol combos that can take them.  All that I know that can take them are Cannoness and Serephim supiriors that can take Bolt/Plasma pistol combos.

 

Are they worth while to take at all? was thinking for a serephim supirior might be and option but a cannoness probably has better options.

[Atrus]

I take them on my seraphim mostly because i have a converted jump pack cannoness i like to use. I find them useful as i dont depend on power weapons for combat...or combat in general.

[sedibear]

Adding Power Axes to Dominion Superiors seem like an OK thing to do - if you're shooting tanks and they don't blow up, charge it. :P

[Gen.Steiner]

I just use the weapons the models come with.

So:

Celestian Superior with plasma pistol and chainsword
Celestian Superior (Penelope the Kindly) with combi-flamer and sheathed power sword
Sister Superior with storm bolter and sheathed power sword
Sister Superior with bolter and power sword
Sister Superior with combi-melta and power maul
Sister Superior with bolter and sheathed power sword

Seraphim Superior with plasma pistol and power sword
Seraphim Superior with bolt pistol and power sword

 

So mostly swords really. I can claim that Penelope's got a power maul, but it'd be pushing it.

[Sister Alessia]

Just had my first win, after 5 games of 8th, yay! It was 750 against Guard. I had nearly tabled him by turn 3, as well as easily winning on victory points.

I only lost 3 Seraphim and 2 bolter Retributors. Everything performed really well, but I think my 2x 4 Storm bolter, 1 combi melta Doms in a retributor were the stars. He conceded at the end of turn 3. 

[dracpanzer]

Everything performed really well, but I think my 2x 4 Storm bolter, 1 combi melta Doms in a retributor were the stars. He conceded at the end of turn 3.

 

I have been trying a lot of different loadouts with my Doms in Repressors. Don't know or care about the math hammer but this one seems to out-perform everything else. CP re-rolls on your melta misses you just have hit, split fire and forever firing combi's are a big help to that. 167 points is an odd fit, but six of them is 1002 points of scouting fun! Leaves enough points for a decent base of fire with a canoness -ret - imagifer combo and then she who wrecks face and a decent seraphim escort. Still tweaking my list but it is definitely starting to solidify.

 

Kind of nice to have a few choices to wrestle with.

Edited July 5, 2017 by dracpanzer

[Sister Alessia]

That's basically my setup DracPanzer! It has been really effective!  Math hammer doesn't seem to work for me either. I still haven't rolled more that 1 hit on a flamer in 5 games lol. Oh and I hardly ever get my 2+Faith, even with a re-roll.

 

Makes a nice change to have decent choices and options :)

[CaptainHelion]

Are you sure your dice have 5s and 6s on them?

[Gen.Steiner]

My flamer-Celestians have been really good to me. Lots of hits. Especially on overwatch!

Things I keep forgetting are auras and the Celestian bodyguard ability. I am looking forwards to the rumoured Adeptus Ministorum 'dex that there are whispers about for September.