8th Ed Tactics thread

[Brother Talarian]

You can always envelop the knight with a large number of conscripts? Move to surround, charge and surround. He can't fall back if he can't move!

[mmimzie]

You can always envelop the knight with a large number of conscripts? Move to surround, charge and surround. He can't fall back if he can't move!

I did the same thing to a rip tide with like 20 models in my Genestealer cult army and it was quite easy to do. I had it stuck thier long enough to get some stealers in there to clean the thing up. I don't really see how it would be any harder to do to a knight. You gotta think terrain also plays a factor into where the knight can actualy go, and any area with a big building will prevent the knight from getting there.

 

Also when you fall back you can't advance so it can't go all that far.

[NatBrannigan]

Does a Knight actually have to fall back or does it just move normally out of combat? They're ok when there's just one but a Knight List id going to be tricky... I think a Shadowsword would be well worth taking to a tournament but even that won't last long when all 4 Knights inevitably target it from the off...

[Shamansky]

Have not met all knights list yet, but I'd prefer spreading firepower. 

[wulfgar hammerfist]

The knight can fall back and still shoot or charge.  When the knight falls back it can move over infantry models so surrounding it makes little difference.  The only way surrounding it might matter is if you flood the board with bodies so that the knight has no place to move to within its 12" movement allowance.  Vehicles can't be moved over but still do not prevent the knight from falling back and acting normally.

[The Catachan Devil]

Take a Knight of your own? :/

Unfortunately, this is definitely a valid tactic. 

 

However I think you'd need something like the Acastus Knight Porphyrion to last against 4 IKs.

 

However that said; taking a look at the IK Ranged weapons list - it's not that big

• Avenger Gatling Cannon => 36" 12 Shots => 8 Hits 
• Thermal Cannon => 36" D3(6) shots => 1.33 Hits
• Rapid-fire Battle Cannon => 72" 2D6 => 4.67 Hits

• Stormspear rocket pod => 48" 3 shots => 2 Hits
• Ironstorm missile pod => 72" D6 shots => 4.67 Hits 
• Twin Icarus autocannon => 48" 4 shots => 2 Hits (unless FLY unit)

And the melee weapons list is even smaller

• Reaper Chainsword=> 4x S12 attacks => 2.67 Hit
• Thunderstrike Gauntlet=> 4 attacks=> 4x S16 attacks => 2.67 Hit
• Titanic Feet 12 attacks=> 12x S8 attacks => 8 Hit

 

The Knights are only armed with 2 weapons each:

• Knight Crusader: Avenger Gatling cannon, Thermal cannon. (536 pts)
• Knight Errant: Reaper chainsword, Thermal cannon. (447 pts)
• Knight Gallant: Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet (406 pts)
• Paladin: Reaper chainsword, Rapid-fire battlecannon (471 pts)
• Warden: Reaper Chainsword, Avenger gatling cannon (466 pts)

 

Each knight also comes with a heavy stubber, heavy flamer and titanic feet. They may also take ONE weapon from the carapace weapons list: (Stormspear rocket pod, Ironstorm missile pod and Twin Icarus autocannon).

 

 

So what can we tell from this? Knights are better at killing multi-wound models as virtually all their weapons inflict 2, D3, D6 or 6 damage. However they have a very low shot count; Lets take the Knight crusader and give it an ironstorm missile pod too (552 points!) has the most amount of shots of any knight which has an average of hitting 14.00 models total.

 

One can deduce that if the best shooty knight is HITTING 14 models/shooting phase then other knights will be getting much fewer hits than this.

 VS a Baneblade this translates to  6.41 wounds lost.

 

In close combat, all knights get 2.67 hits in with the chainsword or gauntlet. With their feet they get 8 hits. Vs a baneblade this translates: to  8.9 wounds by the chainsword, 13.35 wounds by the gauntlet or 5.33 wounds by titanic feet. 

 

It is clear that the Knights are better at killing multi-wound troops in shooting and better at killing tanks in CC. 

 

 

Anti-knight Tactica - General

 

If 4 knights are only hitting 40 models/turn (~10 each) and there will be ~ 5 turns then making sure you have 200+ models will (almost) guarantee you won't get tabled. 

This body count can be brought in the form of conscripts. 600 points for 200 bodies is fab. 

 

Knights are good against multi-wound models. So don't take multi-wound troops without good reason. 

 

You may take a Baneblade vs an IK list, it will likely survive the turn as even 4x crusaders statistically won't kill it. Even so, make sure it's in cover for a 2+ sv. 

 

Avoid tanks getting in CC with knights, tanks will pop like a balloon.

 

Use your superior model count to gain board control. Make sure the knights don't have room to walk over your troops. This will be very useful with games orientated around holding objectives.

 

 

Anti-Knight Tactica - Weapon selection

 

All (non-forge world) knights have 24 wounds T8, 3+, and 5++ vs shooting. 

 

 

I compiled all Astra militarum weapons and calculated their wounds on a T8 3+ 5++ model per shooting phase. I made another column dividing the wounds caused by points of the cheapest unit I could get that weapon in, I noted which unit this was with. To take into account 1-shot weapons I then divided this efficiency value further by how many rounds of shooting that unit could potentially do (up to a max of 5). The first thing I noticed was that 7/10 of the most effective weapons are Baneblade variants and 6/10 of the most efficient anti-IK weapons were those with Special and Heavy weapon teams. 

 

When comparing the top 10 effective and top 10 efficient anti-IK weapons available to guard, you'll notice the Storm eagle rockets and Volcano cannon are on both lists. 

 

This leads me to the conclusion that using Manticores in combination with a shadowsword is probably the most potent combination we have. 

 

 

 

Top 10 Anti knight weapons:

1. Volcano Cannon
2. Deathstrike Missile
3. Hellhammer Cannon
4. Vulcan Mega-bolter
5. Baneblade Cannon
6. Tremor Cannon
7. Magma Cannon
8. Storm Eagle Rocket
9. Quake Cannon
10. Melta Cannon

 

Top 10 most points efficient anti-IK weapons

 

1. Meltagun (Special weapons Sqd)
2. Lascannon (Heavy weapons team)
3. Krak Missile (Heavy weapons team)
4. Heavy Bolter (Heavy weapons team)
5. Hunter Killer missile
6. Storm Eagle Rockets
7. Plasma gun - Supercharge (Special weapons Sqd)
8. Volcano Cannon
9. Autocannon (Heavy weapons team)
10. Hot-shot Volley gun (Scion Command sqd)

 

 

TL;DR Your best anti-knight army will consist of  a load of conscripts, Shadowsword/s and Manticores with hunter killer missiles.  

Edited July 14, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[duz_]

Nice work Catachan! :tu:

 

I also found out something very disappointing last night.

 

My dreams of running Bullgryns in Vendettas have been crushed! Their data sheet specifically says Bullgryns / Ogyrns cannot ride in Vendettas :(
So I guess I will be using my Valk this edition! I'm not sure what I'll put in my Vendetta now... maybe some Melta Vets because RAW right now they can potentially get within that magical 6" range after Grav Chute Disembarkation. If they revise that rule then I will be stumped as to what to put in it as there are better gunships available (hello Vulture!). 

[Gen.Steiner]

Melta Vets, SWS, or Stormtroopers are best choices for Vendetta passengers.

@ Catachan Devil, that's superb and sterling work there sir, well done!

Right, so, Manticores are looking more and more like a 'really good option to take'. Interesting.

[Galron]

Although even in 7th I never played vs a knight army and doubt I will this edition. That's a rough army to play against with a TAC army. I mean yeah, my elysian force with be pounding him with shots, I have s5 out the yinyang, but they will be largely ineffective overall. I dislike the profusion of superheavies this edition. I liked it better when they were apoc only. Guess I might have to move the Marauder Destroyer higher on my list of things to pick up.

[FallenSoldiers]

I come up against Imperial Knights and Wraithknights fairly often in my meta.  They're tough, but not the unkillable monsters they seem.  Plasma, Melta, and a few well placed tanks can take them down easily.  Remember, things get weaker the more wounds they take in this edition (and slower in some cases).  Drop half his wounds (that's only 12 wounds stripped, two very lucky lascannon shots can do that) and he's down to a 9" move, 4+ WS/BS.  Strip it down to 6 and it's a 6" move and WS/BS 5+.  Suddenly it's not jumping around the battlefield.  Once I get a knight to 12 wounds I largely ignore it (unless it needs to be moved off an objective).  ESPECIALLY if it doesn't have dual ranged weapons.  

[Gen.Steiner]

But then we're either spamming lascannons, or dedicating a large amount of firepower to kill what could be a seriously large Distraction Carnifex...

In all honesty I am more concerned about AdMech and their Belisarius Cawl/Kataphron Robot shenanigans than Knights!

[FallenSoldiers]

But then we're either spamming lascannons, or dedicating a large amount of firepower to kill what could be a seriously large Distraction Carnifex...

 

In all honesty I am more concerned about AdMech and their Belisarius Cawl/Kataphron Robot shenanigans than Knights!

 

I never spam Lascannons, I hardly even take them!  I think it's a lot of looking at what your opponents total army looks like.  It's generally pretty obvious if the Knight is the center point lynch pin of the force or just a "HEY LOOK AT ME!  SHOOT AT ME!!  Pay to mind to those pesky marines sneaking around..." kinda thing! 

 

Seriously!  Those Neutron Lasers on Dunecrawlers -HURT-!

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, I guess, I guess.

I just like TAC armies, not ones that are tailored... I always suffer against the extreme armies and it has got worse since the introduction of stuff like the Wraithknight, Riptide, Knight, etc etc.

Neutron Lasers? I was contending with Eradication Cannons or whatever they are and they were bad enough!

[FallenSoldiers]

Yeah, 48" Heavy D3, S10, AP-4, D6 damage... if you roll a 1 or a 2 for damage its treated as a 3 (So min 3 dmg, max 6).  

 

*shudders* 

[Galron]

Yeah I ran into admech my very first 8th game using PLs in fairly low points. Three of those dune crawlers with the massive multi-shot multi-damage weapons with engiseers(?) standing safely behind them repairing every damage point they took. This being an intro game, no one on my team really brought a lot of anti-tank weapons. Two monoliths were taken down and the big floating necron gun thing survived because the dune crawlers kept rolling high for damage and he rolled low for his shield every time. They were not fun to play against. 

[Gen.Steiner]

There are certain lists that can be made from AdMech that are just...

well

 

"Lists to kick people in the crotch" as my local GW manager puts it.

E.G his Cawl-Kataphrons-Dunecrawlers list tabled a Khorne Daemon list without losing a wound. That's a bloodthirster, two daemon princes, and more bloodletters than you can shake a stick at.

Tabled.

[The Catachan Devil]

There are certain lists that can be made from AdMech that are just...

 

well

 

"Lists to kick people in the crotch" as my local GW manager puts it.

 

E.G his Cawl-Kataphrons-Dunecrawlers list tabled a Khorne Daemon list without losing a wound. That's a bloodthirster, two daemon princes, and more bloodletters than you can shake a stick at.

 

Tabled.

Haha, know what list the Admech army was running? 

[Gen.Steiner]

 

There are certain lists that can be made from AdMech that are just...

 

well

 

"Lists to kick people in the crotch" as my local GW manager puts it.

 

E.G his Cawl-Kataphrons-Dunecrawlers list tabled a Khorne Daemon list without losing a wound. That's a bloodthirster, two daemon princes, and more bloodletters than you can shake a stick at.

 

Tabled.

Haha, know what list the Admech army was running? 

 

 

Yep:

 

Cawl

Datasmith with melta pistol and power fist

2x Dunecrawlers with Eradication Cannons and heavy stubbers

One unit of 4 Kataphrons each with 3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters.

 

So the Kataphrons were the real killers - Cawl lets them reroll all misses, and the Datasmith gives them the ability to shoot twice.

 

That's 72 shots a turn just from the Robots, and don't even think about charging them because 72 shots re-rolling all misses is a lot of dead anything on the charge (statistically it's 22 hits - 12 hits initially from the 72 shots, then another 10 from the remaining 60 shots).

 

The Dunecrawlers buff each other, the Datasmith buffs the Robots, and Cawl buffs everything and everyone.

 

I conceded against it with my Sisters list - at one point I had to roll 30 saves on Celestine and the Super Twins. 30!!

Edited July 14, 2017 by Gen.Steiner

[Are Verlo]

The shoot twice protocol is avtive from turn 2.

Turn 1 he starts with +1 to saves and can swap to " no movement but shoot twice".

Then he is stuck with "only" range 36 on the robots.

Sit back, play for a draw or a marginal win by your 48" range weapons.

If you play maelstrom or objectivebased missions he will have to move the bots to keep up on points.

 

The list IS nasty as H, so you can not take any step in that 36" zone of Death unless you will clearly win by points if you do.

[Gen.Steiner]

Sure, I mean if I was playing it with a list that had longer ranged weapons on a board that wasn't 4' square, I'd probably have more luck; but if he sets up his 'bots 12" in then that 36" range will get to my table edge - so I can't avoid the Zone of Death.

[Are Verlo]

Yes, I see on a 4'x4' battlefield the zone of Death covers the board.

What kind of mission did you play?

[Gen.Steiner]

Nothing useful; it was a 'kill 'em all' job that massively favoured his army; but even with objectives in play that army has blown me off the table before.

[leth]

Not much LOS blocking it sounds like

[Are Verlo]

My thoughts too. But I speak from the perspective of my local meta and we use lots of terrain.

Last game we tried to follow the suggestions from the rulebook with regards to terrain, and we both thought it looked way too open

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, the local GW's tables are... um...

 

fairly sparse.

Anyway, I am well aware I'm taking up a lot of time talking about this, so on a more positive note, what would you put in a Guard army to counter that list at 52 power levels (or 1000 points ish)?