Gothical Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Across several threads I have seen the same comment popping up time and time again on what the Blood Angel/Dark Angel text-boxes entitled "[...] Successor Chapters" means in terms of using the unique names characters such as Dante. Said text-boxes have the same rules implications but different fluff blubs, but here's the Blood Angels one: "There are many proud Space Marine chapters that trace their origins to the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. From the frenzied Flesh Tearers to the brooding Angels Vermillion, all share the martial prowess and fiery blood-lust of their forefather Sanguinius. If you wish to theme your army as a Blood Angels successor Chapter, use the rules presented in this section but substitute the Blood Angels keyword in all instances oo the datasheets and rules presented in this section with the name of your Blood Angels successor chapter. Note, however, that named characters that can only be included in your army once cannot be from any other Chapter - Commander Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter." This has caused several arguments about whether you can use Dante to lead your Successor Chapter were you to use the Blood Angels keyword on all your models, whether this constitutes "cheating" or whether refusing to allow it is being "That Guy". Whilst watching the Frontline Gaming twitch stream, which is Frankie and Reecius who were two of the testers for 8th Edition and have also written the Warhammer Community "Faction Focus" articles, I noticed this question (in the chat) and answer (in the stream): "Can you explain the thing about DA successors not having any counts-as named characters now?" "No, now you don't counts-as characters any more [name]. Games Workshop is really big on their intellectual property there is no counts-as characters any more. You have to use their keyword. So what you could do is you could say, Ok, I'm playing these [...] Angels Unforgiven (or whatever), and I'm using Azrael but he's my guy I made up", but you're using the Dark Angels keyword just painted differently." https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149230276 (approximately 02:37:00) Now, I know these guys aren't the GW studio rules-writers but they were involved in the development of the rules, so this is perhaps as authoritative source as we are likely to get for some time (GW won't comment until the Indexes are officially released, and even then there's no guarantee of an answer/answering the right question). What does everyone think and feel about this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 What does everyone think and feel about this? If we indeed are restricted from using counts-as characters, I'm just going to look at it this way: There's always such a thing as house-rules. ^_^ (I know this might not help the tournament scene, though.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4773981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 For casual play, this rule is being :cuss. I don't think I will have a problem where I play. And actually I have very rarely ever used named characters anyways now that I think about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4773996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfender Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Looks like they are stomping out shenanigans. Fine by me, I dislike and disapprove of use of special characters anyways. Typically under costed and overpowered. This prevents people from spamming things that are too good, especially in the tournament scene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Now, I know these guys aren't the GW studio rules-writers but they were involved in the development of the rules, so this is perhaps as authoritative source as we are likely to get for some time (GW won't comment until the Indexes are officially released, and even then there's no guarantee of an answer/answering the right question). What does everyone think and feel about this? I've never really liked counts as. It just feels like wanting to get special snowflake rules for your dudes. I much prefer giving my own characters more generic gear and then adding anything special with relics (when they return). To me what makes my dudes awesome is their back story, their heroic (or unheroic) deeds on the battlefield, their lovingly painted and converted models and the fact that at the end of the day, there are many like them, but this one is mine. I don't need special character rules for my Captains, Librarians, Colonels and Commissars to be awesome, they're gonna do that on their own and it's much more satisfying to me that way. That said, I don't have issue with someone else using counts as against me. I can see the appeal of converting an awesome model that matches the theme/equipment of a specific character, especially if you don't like the original character model. I also get that special characters open up options for players that they don't normally have (like Chapter Masters for successors this edition?). I only really have an issue if someone is just taking a generic model and using a special characters rules for it, like a basic plasma pistol/power sword Captain model and then using it as Sicarius. Especially if they keep switching which rules they are using. Then again, if I'm playing against that type of opponent counts as is likely to be the least of the problems. If someone is willing to put in the effort to make an awesome character model and then want to have special rules to match, then I'm down with that. At the end of the day when it comes to ambiguous intentions or points of contention within 40ks rules, for me the only person who matters is my opponent (and in a tournament, the TO/judges). So if my opponent is happy with me using a proxy (and lets face it, that's what counts as is) then cool. If my opponent is using a proxy and not being a tool about it then I'm cool. It's just a game, we're there to have fun so regardless of how GW or their playtesters view things. While it's always nice to have an official wording on matters such as this, whatever way GW rule it in the end it won't change the way I play with my opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinespider Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I generally agree with the above - the edition (was it fifth? they blur together) where all chapter tactics flowed from special characters was terrible, imo. You shouldn't have to use a named guy or a clone of a named guy to get your distinctive rules. That said, anyone who points to your Angels of AbsoForgivRepent and says "you can't use Azrael because they're not DA" is a terrible person. Provided, of course, that you're consistent about them counting as DA and you don't try to stick in special characters from different chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I have a few words for them but I will be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfender Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Play the chapter you want, does it have a special character? yes - use it if you want. Does the successor you selected have a special character with rules? No - then that is tough :cuss. If you want the glory that is universal special characters, then Ultra marines are for you lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I've never been a fan of Special Characters. At all. To me, it's like playing D&D but instead of rolling your own character the DM just hands you some sheets and and says "You are Coran the Barbarian. Here's your stats and gear, this is your backstory, you have to play him this way." Why would I want to do that when I can make my own character? As cool as the official characters are, I'll never love Ibram Gaunt as much as Captain Cassius, the Space Marine Captain armed with the most inaccurate gun in the Imperium; a combi-grenade launcher guaranteed to always roll a "1" to hit with the grenade! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Looks like they are stomping out shenanigans. Fine by me, I dislike and disapprove of use of special characters anyways. Typically under costed and overpowered. This prevents people from spamming things that are too good, especially in the tournament scene. I feel like people...aren't quite getting this. It's not like 6th/7th Edition, where you'd mix special characters from different Chapters and armies in order to create some insane, untested death star. Characters don't work like that anymore - their buffs are restricted to specific faction keywords. The only difference between using Dante in a Blood Angels force and using Dante in an Angels Encarmine force is the color of the paint and the fiction in one's head. Rules-wise, they're entirely equivalent, and trying to keep someone from using a Special Character for non-rules reason is nonsense, to my mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 As long as everyone is cool with me using my rules for the characters in my DIY Successor, then I'm good with the idea that "You can't use Special Characters in Successor Chapters". The instant someone says "No, you can't use that guy and you can't use Special Characters Counts-As", you had better be damned sure that all your painting is absolutely perfect, because if there isn't a universal campaign marking on all your miniatures and all your company markings and heraldry aren't meticulously perfect, and each of your characters have every single piece of their model painted flawlessly, we aren't playing and you are That :cuss Guy. You sure as hell better not say it if your army is plastic grey/partially primer color. I get the right to be that picky about my opponent if my opponent is going to be that picky about me (and my miniatures I use do have their campaign, company, squad and personalized markings, so yes, I follow my own rules as well). Others that are cool, I'm cool - I prefer a more creative side opponent. I don't mind using Counts-As rules for my guys if need be. As far as the rules, Lexington has the right of it above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 No issue with counts as special characters at all. There should be huge customisability for generic options which would make people feel less in need of using them, but in the absence of that (or even the option at all, BA + no generic chapter master entry from my perspective) it's cool, especially if someone makes the effort to really put their own take on the original character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 The thing is not to forbid the count as, imho, but the abuse. E.g. Dante and Seth having both the same keyword. If your DIY successor have the BA tag, then you can use Dante, but you're not getting Seth the BA keyword for fluff :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfender Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I think that across all SM codices there needs to be 'generic' Chapter Master options. It is something the DA codex never had, which to me never made sense. Allowing people to make their own with a variety of wargear is a much more favorable option that someone rolling in with over powered special characters that are under costed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothical Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 If we indeed are restricted from using counts-as characters, I'm just going to look at it this way: There's always such a thing as house-rules. (I know this might not help the tournament scene, though.) Play the chapter you want, does it have a special character? yes - use it if you want. Does the successor you selected have a special character with rules? No - then that is tough . If you want the glory that is universal special characters, then Ultra marines are for you lol. The thing is, the FG guys kinda contradict the Index rules, depending on how you classify "counts as", as the following two scenarios are both counts as: 1) "These are my Red Marines chapter, use the <Red Marines> keyword, led by Dante who I am counting as keyword <Red Marines>" 2) "These are my Red Marines, use the <Blood Angels> keyword on everything and are led by Kevin, which is my custom Chapter Master using Dante's rules" As far as the Index goes, 1) is definitely a no-go, perfectly understandably, but 2) is implied as a no-go by the Index (by saying Dante is the BA CM, not leader of any Successor), yet the game testers & official article authors have said it is a-OK - after all, rules-wise you ARE using Blood Angels, you just painted them differently. I've never been a fan of Special Characters. At all. To me, it's like playing D&D but instead of rolling your own character the DM just hands you some sheets and and says "You are Coran the Barbarian. Here's your stats and gear, this is your backstory, you have to play him this way." Why would I want to do that when I can make my own character? As cool as the official characters are, I'll never love Ibram Gaunt as much as Captain Cassius, the Space Marine Captain armed with the most inaccurate gun in the Imperium; a combi-grenade launcher guaranteed to always roll a "1" to hit with the grenade! Same here - it is why I absolutely hated whichever edition it was that you had to take the Special Character to unlock Chapter Tactics. I love coming up with conversions for non-related unique models as I love modelling (I was working on a Cadian Straken before the last Codex hit, I was working out different ways to represent Typhus, Khârn etc. with appropriate Iron Warriors creations), but generally prefer using completely custom characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 The thing is not to forbid the count as, imho, but the abuse. E.g. Dante and Seth having both the same keyword. If your DIY successor have the BA tag, then you can use Dante, but you're not getting Seth the BA keyword for fluff ^This. I think that across all SM codices there needs to be 'generic' Chapter Master options. It is something the DA codex never had, which to me never made sense. Allowing people to make their own with a variety of wargear is a much more favorable option that someone rolling in with over powered special characters that are under costed. ^This as well. I don't see why Chapter Master couldn't be a generic entry with an asterisk that says cannot be used in the same <Chapter> that also includes (Insert every known Chapter Master here). I think so long as everything matches up (your force is Blood Angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Chicago Bulls, whatever) I don't see a problem. As Maximvs pointed out, the idea is so that you can't make Super Friend mega forces (the infamous Bark-Bark Star). Personally I like special characters. It's fun to see these epic heroes we read about on the battlefield. Also, think of your favorite sports team. Do you have favorite players as well as favorite teams? Do you enjoy seeing player x do things as well as the team as a whole? That being said where there are issues are balance, as always. To me, restricting Characters with < x> to only being used by armies that also have < x > seems like a fair start. I'm sure things can get tweaked as things go on. 8th isn't even technically out yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I'll be using both Shrike and a custom Shadow Captain for my Raven Guard. But I'm building my own Shrike Model, because I really hate the official frolicking Captain Ballet that GW inflicted on us. Space. Marines. DO. NOT. FROLIC. Awesome character, terrible model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyberos the Red Wake Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Honestly if you play Angels of Absolution (or whatever) and want to use Azrael, it's not so hard to simply use the <Dark Angels> keyword and take Azrael. Do you REALLY want to sacrifice all those benefits, just to have the "proper" <Angels of Absolution> keyword? It's not really worth it. Just take <Dark Angels> and say you're Angels of Absolution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokil Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 But what if I play crimson fists and I want to use a hypothetical Rogal Dorn and Pedro Kantor in the same army?? What a nightmare if Dorn only has the imperial fists keyword... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyberos the Red Wake Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 They both have the <Imperial> keyword so it doesn't matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 But what if I play crimson fists and I want to use a hypothetical Rogal Dorn and Pedro Kantor in the same army?? What a nightmare if Dorn only has the imperial fists keyword... You'll still be able to use him, you just won't get his full benefit. Also, it's not a nightmare, it's game balance. The keywords exist to stop stuff like hyporthetical Dorn and Kantor stacking their buffs. If we start adjusting keywords so we can combine Imperial/Crimson Fists, or Ultramarines/Salamanders etc, then we're breaking the game and opening the gate for the exact 7th ed deathstars that keywords were designed to prevent. They both have the <Imperial> keyword so it doesn't matter. It does if Dorn has a rule that only affects stuff with the Imperial Fist keyword, while Kantor's Oath of Rynn only affects stuff with the Crimson Fists keyword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokil Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Thanks for clearing that up! I didn't take the time to read through the leaks yet so hearing the tidbits of rules from various sources made it more confusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4774984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You can field guys of different <Chapters> in the same army, they just won't be able to boost eachother. Just like you can field Baal Flamer Predators in a battle forged Salamanders army. The Baal's just won't get re-rolls on their flamers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4775035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I'm fully in support of successors not getting the named characters. If you like Dante, Calgar or Vulkan then play their respective chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4775114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 How nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334377-space-marine-chapters-and-named-characters/#findComment-4775157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.