Land Speeder Vengeance in 8th

[HandofAnubis]

I am curious as to what you all think about the LSV in 8th. With the changes to both vehicles and plasma will the LSV be more viable now? I know many of our brethren have voiced their disdain for this unit in the past.

 

I am curious to see how LSV will perform now. What do you all think? Have any of you tried it out in 8th already?

[ShadowCore67]

Imho the support the darkshroud provides outweighs the firepower the vengeance shoots out. Especially when the amount of firepower the vengeance has is a random number and could be unreliable.

[Kewl Imp]

I never really used it in either edition. But that is more due to cost in money rather than points. Also I agree that the Dark Shroud in both editions bring more to the table. I will make sure to try it in a demo game if I can get another one or two in this weekend.

[Elios Harg]

Turning templates/blasts into random hits/shots was a bad move overall. The vengeance is far better than it was, but plasma cannons of all varieties are just not worth it due to the unreliability of them. Super charging is a desperation only move unless you have re-rolls available. However, even then you are risking a 1/36 chance of taking off 1/3 of the vehicles max wounds and destroying the gun for 1S and 1D with a too high probability of only getting one or two shots off and wasting the super charge.

 

To put it in perspective, the previous edition version had a 2/3 chance of hitting EXACTLY where you wanted and, typically, would have gotten 4 or more hits because the 5" blast usually covered most of a small unit or a good portion of a large unit. Now, you will average 4 hits only when you are lucky, didn't move, and roll 6 shots. More likely, people will average 3-4 shots and 1-2 hits. Meaning they are better against single model units, but worse against multiple model units.

 

GW needs to either severely reduce the points cost on all these formerly blast or template weapons or make them more reliable somehow. For example, just making D6 into 6 shots and D3 into 3 shots would bring them in line. An assault cannons gets 6 shots, a plasma cannon would have half the shots, but improved range, S, AP and a super charge for desperation attacks. They cost the same, but now it is actually a decision to weigh rather than a no-brainer to always take the assault cannon. It would make them far more effective against single models, but considering the toughness of high wound models, I don't think that is a bad thing. A LSV would average doing 1.67 wounds to a T6 vehicle and a demolisher would average doing 5.83 wounds to the same. The morale being, don't let your light vehicles get shot with demolisher cannons (or battle cannons, etc.) because they won't last long.

 

Hopefully, these weapons will get addressed by GW because they just will not be taken over more reliably effective alternatives.

[SnakeChisler]

Don't forget the Weapon is heavy so -1 to hit if you move

 

Its worth overcharging Plasma Devs with Sam nearby as he gives the rights of battle but loosing 1 Dev is a different cup  Cha to a 160 point Landspeeder also 4 Dev Plasma Cannons are 4*3D6

 

When would you overcharge a Dev Squad well Knights and other T8 stuff is a good example your wounding on 4's instead of 5's and doing 2 Damage when it gets through and your unlikely to live long anyways once he Eye Spies you

 

(Bring it down whatever it costs)

 

;) 

[Elios Harg]

Don't forget the Weapon is heavy so -1 to hit if you move

Its worth overcharging Plasma Devs with Sam nearby as he gives the rights of battle but loosing 1 Dev is a different cup Cha to a 160 point Landspeeder also 4 Dev Plasma Cannons are 4*3D6

When would you overcharge a Dev Squad well Knights and other T8 stuff is a good example your wounding on 4's instead of 5's and doing 2 Damage when it gets through and your unlikely to live long anyways once he Eye Spies you

(Bring it down whatever it costs)

I had accounted for the -1 to hit in all my calculations, but left it out of my comment on averaging 4 hits. I fixed that.

Not sure what you mean by "4 Dev Plasma Cannons are 4*3D6." However, if you are referring to number of shots, it's 4*D3. Your example of when you would supercharge a dev squad is exactly my point: It is a desperation only move. In most cases, it is far better to definitely fire again next turn than to risk blowing up your gun or model. Dreadnought Heavy Plasma Cannons are the only ones that I foresee using supercharge regularly because they only suffer 1 wound and do not explode (so can always keep firing).

Plasma Cannons (note: not guns or pistols as those are actually good and decent for their points, respectively) just stink. On Devastators, I would much rather have the versatile Missile Launcher, it has better range, does not explode, only sacrifices 1 AP, and has the same damage potential as a supercharged Plasma Cannon (1*D6 for Krak; 2*D3 for supercharged plasma). On top of this, it can fire frag versus squishy targets if it wants. This all for only 4 more points than the plasma cannon.

As to the LS Vengeance, a normal Ravenwing Speeder with an assault cannon and heavy bolter is cheaper than a LSV with heavy bolter by 16 points and LSV with assault cannon by 27 points. Comparing the plasma storm battery to an assault cannon, the plasma storm will average 3.5 shots, this gives it 1.94 average wounds versus multi-wound models with T5 or lower and a 3+ save. The assault cannon will average 1 wound on the same models. Against single wound models, the plasma storm is no better on average than the assault cannon. Against T6 and T7 ( probably the most common T values for vehicles) it is about 3 times more effective than the assault cannon. So, on average the plasma storm will be better than the assault cannon. However, it will be streaky. Sometimes it will severely over perform, others it will severely under perform. A game where you get only 3 good targets of opportunity with the vengeance and roll 1s on shots each time is going to be pretty frustrating. However, a game where it gets all 4s, 5s, and 6s for 6 rounds of shooting will be amazing. Of course, there are other factors such as the LSV having higher T and more wounds which also factor into the cost, so a direct comparison of firepower is only part of the total value of the LSV. It ultimately seems worth it versus adding an additional Ravenwing Land Speeder, if you are okay with the chance of it severely under performing in games due to the randomness factor.

[Darkangeldentist]

Just want to clarify something with the calculations people have been doing for the plasma storm battery. I noticed that unlike most other plasma weapons it's damage values are 2 and 3 rather than 1 and 2 for normal and super-charged modes respectively. When I look at how much damage it's likely to inflict I end up getting rather better results than those being posted. (Having D6 shots also helps.) However I'm going by loose averages rather than properly plugging in the numbers.

 

I'm quite liking the changes to the vengeance, it appears to be both tougher and more able to inflict damage than before. However in a comparison for it's role in a list it's still losing out to the other options. As far as what to make using the model kit the dark shroud still appears to be the more useful option. That modifier to hit is likely to be very valuable. 

[HandofAnubis]

Thankfully I magnatized both of my models so  could run either the LSV or the Shroud. I just wish GW would make it worthwhile to try somthing other than the shroud. I know some do not care for the model but I have always liked it. I will play around with it and see how it performs, though I agree the shroud will likley prevail once again.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I played the LSV extensively in 7th as part of a RWSS, the interceptor potential for the pie plate o' AP2 doom was what really made it worth it.

Now only hitting D6 is rubbish in comparison, although the DSV is more survivable the damage output is badly needed to the point where it may not see the table.

Normal LS' got a good boost, but their cost has gone way up too.

Time will tell, game time is needed.

[Elios Harg]

Just want to clarify something with the calculations people have been doing for the plasma storm battery. I noticed that unlike most other plasma weapons it's damage values are 2 and 3 rather than 1 and 2 for normal and super-charged modes respectively. When I look at how much damage it's likely to inflict I end up getting rather better results than those being posted. (Having D6 shots also helps.) However I'm going by loose averages rather than properly plugging in the numbers.

 

I'm quite liking the changes to the vengeance, it appears to be both tougher and more able to inflict damage than before. However in a comparison for it's role in a list it's still losing out to the other options. As far as what to make using the model kit the dark shroud still appears to be the more useful option. That modifier to hit is likely to be very valuable.

My number for plasma storm vs. assault cannon included 2 damage, which is why I specified multi-wound models (it is less efficient against single wound). Did you account for moving (-1 to hit)? Also, I used 3.5 as my average number of shots. Maybe I will whip up a weapon simulator this weekend to see how they all perform over time.

[PariahMessiah]

Imho the support the darkshroud provides outweighs the firepower the vengeance shoots out. Especially when the amount of firepower the vengeance has is a random number and could be unreliable.

Thats the only thing I absolutely hate. If it was a set number of shots, great, but a variable of 1-6 is just far too risky. 

[SnakeChisler]

Problem with speeders is they're still quite fragile I ran a Vindicator for the 1St time in years the other day while it needs to be closer it does way more damage for the points and is T8.

T8 is a bit of a magic number all S4 shooting goes to needing 6's, plasma & rockets need 5's it acted like a bullet magnet allowing the rest of the force to move around more freely.

Given the changes and price pointing I'd rather run a couple of dual HB speeders or a 12 shot assault cannon razorback

[Darkangeldentist]

 

My number for plasma storm vs. assault cannon included 2 damage, which is why I specified multi-wound models (it is less efficient against single wound). Did you account for moving (-1 to hit)? Also, I used 3.5 as my average number of shots. Maybe I will whip up a weapon simulator this weekend to see how they all perform over time.

 

 

 

If you factored the differences into your calculations then that's all I wanted to know, as I mentioned I was going by loose averages and looking at both moving and staying still for my own assessment. 

 

With weapons like this I like to roll out a few sample sets of dice to give me more of an idea of how it's likely to perform on the table and for me the vengeance delivered an average of 1-2 successfully wounding hits that got past armour. (Assuming a target with toughness 6 or lower and a 3+ save, although in the case of my dice a 2+ save would have been no different.) With the new edition there are a lot more multi-wound models out there and the extra damage the plasma storm battery does makes it quite appealing. Compared to other heavy weapons I like it quite a lot more than say a multimelta, krak missile or lascannon. (Oddly in the battle of the heavy weapons I suspect the biggest winner is the predator autocannon.)

[SnakeChisler]

 

 

My number for plasma storm vs. assault cannon included 2 damage, which is why I specified multi-wound models (it is less efficient against single wound). Did you account for moving (-1 to hit)? Also, I used 3.5 as my average number of shots. Maybe I will whip up a weapon simulator this weekend to see how they all perform over time.

 

 

 

If you factored the differences into your calculations then that's all I wanted to know, as I mentioned I was going by loose averages and looking at both moving and staying still for my own assessment. 

 

With weapons like this I like to roll out a few sample sets of dice to give me more of an idea of how it's likely to perform on the table and for me the vengeance delivered an average of 1-2 successfully wounding hits that got past armour. (Assuming a target with toughness 6 or lower and a 3+ save, although in the case of my dice a 2+ save would have been no different.) With the new edition there are a lot more multi-wound models out there and the extra damage the plasma storm battery does makes it quite appealing. Compared to other heavy weapons I like it quite a lot more than say a multimelta, krak missile or lascannon. (Oddly in the battle of the heavy weapons I suspect the biggest winner is the predator autocannon.)

 

Was going to get some a While back and decided at the weekend to order some from Forgeworld as the Las is really expensive with twin Las + S12 PowerFist + Heavy Flamer about 170  while a Rifleman comes in at 130, the upgrade to Venerable is a then more use with 8 shots hitting on 2+ (3+ if it moves)

[Ronin_eX]

 

Plasma Cannons (note: not guns or pistols as those are actually good and decent for their points, respectively) just stink. On Devastators, I would much rather have the versatile Missile Launcher, it has better range, does not explode, only sacrifices 1 AP, and has the same damage potential as a supercharged Plasma Cannon (1*D6 for Krak; 2*D3 for supercharged plasma). On top of this, it can fire frag versus squishy targets if it wants. This all for only 4 more points than the plasma cannon.

 

 

In all honesty, plasma cannons are in a better place than they've been for ages.  That small blast template killed their ability to get multi-hits, basically making them less effective overall than a plasma gun.

 

So while d3 hits may feel like a downgrade, in general it is getting the same or (on average) more hits than a plasma cannon tended to get against the small, tough units that were its bread and butter.

 

Krak missiles are more effective for damaging vehicles, to be sure.  But being a single shot hampers them against tough units where they cap out at a single possible kill per missile launcher.

 

Meanwhile, a plasma devastator squad is pumping out on average ~8 shots.  With overcharging being elective now this makes them a whole lot more effective against single wound heavy infantry in their default state than a quad missile unit.  And in a pinch, they can still do anti-vehicle or even just straight anti-infantry (due to overall weight of fire).

 

Against MEQs, a plas-dev squad will cause ~2.98 kills stationary and ~2.24 on the move.  The missile launcher devs meanwhile do ~1.49 kills on an MEQ squad stationary and ~1.11 on the move.

 

Against GEQs, the plas-devs are ~4.45 kills stationary and ~3.32 on the move.  Using frags the missile launchers are ~2.41 stationary and ~1.80 on the move (and with krak, the numbers are obviously worse due to smaller number of average shots).

 

Against TEQs, the plas-devs (sans overcharge) do ~1.18 unsaved wounds stationary (~0.88 on the move).  Overcharged, each unsaved wound kills a terminator outright and they deal ~2.98 unsaved wounds stationary and ~2.24 on the move.  Meanwhile krak squad deals ~1.11 unsaved wounds sationary or ~0.83 on the move and there is a 1/6 chance that that wound will not kill a terminator outright (think of it as final save when the damage is rolled).  So in order to outperform a krak missile, plasma needs to overcharge against terminators (so have a rites bubble nearby).

 

Against a T8. Sv3+ vehicle, krak is dealing ~3.14 damage stationary and ~2.35 on the move.  Meanwhile, uncharged plasma cannon dev squad is doing ~1.47 damage stationary and ~1.1 on the move.  Charged, this becomes ~4.45 damage stationary, and ~3.32 on the move.

 

As you can see, plasma is more flexible, but to gain that flexibility it has to risk an overcharge and thus requires a layer of synergy.  On the other hand, plasma cannons come in at 21 points to the missile launcher's 25.

 

Missile launchers are nice because they can deal competently with a variety of targets with no fuss needed about placing a rites bubble nearby.  Meanwhile, plasma is, by default, more effective against single-wound targets in its default stat and it can become more effective (on average) against tougher targets if overcharged, but it is a marked risk now.  And of course, that extra 12" of range is a nice perk, but as you can see, mobile heavy weapons are worth firing as well (especially with the number of shots the plasma devs will sling on average).

 

And this is the thing with the new "blast" weapons.  They may look lackluster on paper, when compared to the old way.  But stick a bunch of 'em down, and they start to add up.  For the first time in a while quad-plasma cannon dreads actually look to be quite an effective multi-purpose unit if supported well.  So don't be quick to rule them out because of that Heavy d3.

[PariahMessiah]

^The only thing good about the new plasma cannons is the ability to move and fire at a 4+ hit with Marines. Im still not fond of the D3 shots, as it can be pretty gimicky, I would have rather had blast weapons with 1/3 chance to hit directly and get a guaranteed x number of htis, and even when it missed it was a change you'd still hit pretty close and get multiple hits. 

[PhilB]

Great post Ronin, you've convinced me to give plasma cannon devs a go, and I'll even through in Azrael because why the hell not.

You're becoming quite the statistician on here and I look forward to more of it.

Just on your last paragraph, I take it "quad-plasma dreads" was a typo and should be "quad-plasma devs"? You lost me there.

 

Thanks.

[SnakeChisler]

There's no one size fits all anymore Plasma Dev's will be useful against a number of targets including the lighter vehicle / MC's & necron vehicles with quantum shielding and living metal.

 

Horde clearing is going to be a problem so it's a decent compromise weapon.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I had the worse lunch with plasma blasts so I'm not sad to see them go. Even if that D3/6 comes out a 1 it's still better than scattering into nowhere or worse, into my own.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I would miss with every PC except Sammies or when targeting units that had a tight disembark and were doomed if I hit in the past. No half measures, miss everything or Hit and kill nearly whole squads.

Too much random then too, just learn to aim the damned thing already.

 

Now the real problem is nearly everyone gets instagibbed on a gets hot, what a terribad rule. GW, change that for crying out loud. Plasma is not that great that it needs such a hinderance, never has been either.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gets hot rule will also not affect me. Every I rolled a get hot my guys were dead anyway. ;)

I am still a legend among my old gaming group when after firing everything and the kitchen sink (plasma wise that was combi plasma, plasmagun and plasma Cannon) at a Necron unit, not only I killed 0 (zero) Necrons, I was 3 men short when the dust settled. :/

[jbaeza94]

Gets hot rule will also not affect me. Every I rolled a get hot my guys were dead anyway. ;)

I am still a legend among my old gaming group when after firing everything and the kitchen sink (plasma wise that was combi plasma, plasmagun and plasma Cannon) at a Necron unit, not only I killed 0 (zero) Necrons, I was 3 men short when the dust settled. :/

This is a story all too familiar. Haha my DV set sgt has yet to not kill himself on his first round of shooting

[Knight Master Eladric]

Plasma cannon terminator in a command squad with an apothecary on the deep strike (twin linked). More than once.

[Elios Harg]

I would miss with every PC except Sammies or when targeting units that had a tight disembark and were doomed if I hit in the past. No half measures, miss everything or Hit and kill nearly whole squads.

Too much random then too, just learn to aim the damned thing already.

 

Now the real problem is nearly everyone gets instagibbed on a gets hot, what a terribad rule. GW, change that for crying out loud. Plasma is not that great that it needs such a hinderance, never has been either.

I'm basically never using super charge unless in a desperation move or in the last round (assuming the models dying won't affect anything). So having the option to not get hot makes plasma hugely better. I actually like most plasma, I just hate the idea of random shots fired entirely. I hate it on plasma, I hate it on demolishers, I hate it on flamers. Everything that has random number of shots seems over priced to me.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I continue to dislike the Gets-Hot slays a 10+ wound vehicle as well as a single wound dude, that's not right.

 

I agree about the number of shots being an issue too but it bothers me a it less; the problem is mostly because there is no flattening of the curve for the number of shots, especially now they have to hit rolls to lessen the chance of hitting anyway, the mechanism is too random in that context, D3+3 would have been better for large blasts instead of the D6, and D2+1 for small blasts instead of the D3.

The gain from move and shoot heavies may prove to mitigate that loss, but I don't think it will be that great an effect. Tactically very cool though, and cool beats all.