8th Edition DW Tactica

[Vel'Cona]

 

What about meltagun then, someone might ask. Well, DW vanguards can't take melta gun despite coming from chapters where every assault squad can take some. Maybe they forgot how to do it or something. Anyway, point is, no melta on deep strike for you. Except, oops, I lied - technically, termies can take a meltagun. Too bad it's paired up with terrible, overpriced power fist which you need to take if you want one.

 

So Drop Pods are completely off your radar now, then?  Don't talk about the cost, you're paying for the ability to "Deep Strike" and the protection implied in doing so (and the DP can be used to contest objectives, don't forget).  Beyond that, the Corvus is gaining traction and I'm pretty sure I can fit more than a few meltas in there.

 

As far as Inferno Pistols, I'd definitely agree those are trash from a purely "Deep Strike" perspective.  Grav probably falls in there too since optimal ranges for it start at 9" or less.  But I'd strongly argue that the Meltagun/Combi-Melta is still a very solid choice for nuking big gribblies on the way in, even if you don't get the half range bonus damage roll.

[mjrwaud]

Now that the shooting rules have changed somewhat and each model is allowed to shoot all weapons that it carries (aside from pistols), isn't the huge advantage of the powerfist-melta gun the ability to shoot it along with whatever primary weapon is chosen? Seems like a big deal.

[leth]

Now that the shooting rules have changed somewhat and each model is allowed to shoot all weapons that it carries (aside from pistols), isn't the huge advantage of the powerfist-melta gun the ability to shoot it along with whatever primary weapon is chosen? Seems like a big deal.

 

The main problem here is that you are making the model very very expensive and it is trying to fill too many roles at once.  You are paying a bunch for it to be in combat, but you are also paying a lot for it to be able to shoot. It cant do both at once and so at any given time you are wasting points.   IMO terminators in kill teams need to be cheap and used as bullet catchers. 

[Kallas]

 

The main problem here is that you are making the model very very expensive and it is trying to fill too many roles at once.  You are paying a bunch for it to be in combat, but you are also paying a lot for it to be able to shoot. It cant do both at once and so at any given time you are wasting points.   IMO terminators in kill teams need to be cheap and used as bullet catchers. 

 

While mostly true, if there's anywhere that that's not true it's on a Deathwatch Kill Team, which can (with a Biker and Vanguard) Fall Back and still shoot and charge. That does jack up the cost (Bike plus Vanguard is roughly the same base cost as three regular Deathwatch Veterans) but does give some amazing flexibility, plus they're not slouches themselves (SIA Twin Bolters are not to be sniffed at!)

 

That said, they're making an already expensive PF/Melta model/unit even more expensive 

[mjrwaud]

There seems to be a conflict or dissonance in what exactly kill teams are meant to be... 

 

What is their role?

 

A ) Super specialized units designed for one task or role on the battlefield? Selecting models/equipment hyper efficiently for one pre-defined purpose. 

 

or

 

B ) Generalist units capable of holding their own in nearly any situation? Selecting models/equipment for whatever purpose you might be confronted with.

 

Either one is possible, but I think there are definite hints as to which is a better fit. Think of what SIA does, our iconic ammo is designed to let a marine with a bolter handle different situations a little bit better (and we pay for that flexibility). We can never expect to make a CC kill team capable of out CC'ing an equivalent priced unit of any real CC specialists (Khorne Berzerkers for example), but you can make a kill team that can cut them down in shooting, not fold like a wet noodle if they do make it to CC, drop back and shoot, charge back in and finish off what's left. 

 

Take that very expensive terminator with a heavy flamer, powerfist+melta gun... certainly pricey and not optimized for any -one- of the roles he's equiped for (anti-horde, CC, anti-MC/Armour), but he can do them all reasonably well and that flexibility comes with a tax in points. Sure, that's one model that can die pretty fast... but that model has a lot of potential and it's up to you as a player to use that flexibility as an advantage (it's one of the few we have). This is of course an optimistically simplified and mostly conceptual view, but it's somewhat disheartening to see people trying to build ultra-efficient specialized forces and end up disappointed by point cost or effectiveness.

 

A chef's knife is a great tool, efficient, simple to use, and it does its job very well... but then you have to go looking for things to cut.

A swiss army knife can't cut like a chef's knife... but you can also open a can or bottle of wine.

Edited June 23, 2017 by mjrwaud

[leth]

There seems to be a conflict or dissonance in what exactly kill teams are meant to be... 

 

What is their role?

 

A ) Super specialized units designed for one task or role on the battlefield? Selecting models/equipment hyper efficiently for one pre-defined purpose. 

 

or

 

B ) Generalist units capable of holding their own in nearly any situation? Selecting models/equipment for whatever purpose you might be confronted with.

 

Either one is possible, but I think there are definite hints as to which is a better fit. Think of what SIA does, our iconic ammo is designed to let a marine with a bolter handle different situations a little bit better (and we pay for that flexibility). We can never expect to make a CC kill team capable of out CC'ing an equivalent priced unit of any real CC specialists (Khorne Berzerkers for example), but you can make a kill team that can cut them down in shooting, not fold like a wet noodle if they do make it to CC, drop back and shoot, charge back in and finish off what's left. 

 

Take that very expensive terminator with a heavy flamer, powerfist+melta gun... certainly pricey and not optimized for any -one- of the roles he's equiped for (anti-horde, CC, anti-MC/Armour), but he can do them all reasonably well and that flexibility comes with a tax in points. Sure, that's one model that can die pretty fast... but that model has a lot of potential and it's up to you as a player to use that flexibility as an advantage (it's one of the few we have). This is of course an optimistically simplified and mostly conceptual view, but it's somewhat disheartening to see people trying to build ultra-efficient specialized forces and end up disappointed by point cost or effectiveness.

 

A chef's knife is a great tool, efficient, simple to use, and it does its job very well... but then you have to go looking for things to cut.

A swiss army knife can't cut like a chef's knife... but you can also open a can or bottle of wine.

and that would make sense, however it is very expensive for what it does when we can just take advantage of our inherent flexibility in the form of weapons like the bolters and frag cannons that we will get more milage out of instead of over investing in a single model. I would rather buy an extra marine with frag cannon than put all those upgrades on a terminator. 

[Master Avoghai]

I would rather buy an extra marine with frag cannon than put all those upgrades on a terminator.

I actually think the exact same thing about bike and JP in a KT : I don't think a bike is THAT useful when I can one more frag cannon.. The jump pack is not a bif deal since it's just 3pts more to get the possibility to shoot after fallback, but I actually wonderif the rare cases I'll need to disengage charge and shoot are worth the cost of taking a bike

[Kargrym]

You will want the jet pack to get your frag cannons out of close combat so you can use them again. Bikes are to jump from one assault and back in again to swing first on the same target or another one. If you are loaded on close combat weapons or want to thin out a group rather than wipe one (to prevent soul bursts) then bikes might not suck

[Master Avoghai]

You will want the jet pack to get your frag cannons out of close combat so you can use them again. Bikes are to jump from one assault and back in again to swing first on the same target or another one. If you are loaded on close combat weapons or want to thin out a group rather than wipe one (to prevent soul bursts) then bikes might not suck

That's the theory, now with a practical view this squad is tailored for close combat and shooting at short range and they are embarked in a corvus meaning they'll be in range turn 2 with few possibility to be charged themselves.

Hence, I'll be the one who charge, meaning that in most case, my opponent will be the one who disengage to shoot at me...

 

So in turn 3 I'll be disengaged anyway so why paying for an option (bike) that' I'll use few times?

[Kargrym]

i would say bikes are for horde armies. I can envision some uses though it will take a lot of testing to see where it plays best. Jet pack for frag heavy units and flamers, bikes for close combat heavy units like thunder hammers, bounce out of the gribblies to get at the thing it was bubble wrapping.

[Prot]

I would say Bikes are for objective missions. Lots of tournaments will probably start by using stuff out of the book (most have announced they will start this way).

 

The army is very difficult to transfer around with mixed Kill Team builds. And it's still very small. Bikes give you the ability to zoom from important objective, to important objective without being tar pitted in.

 

Their T5, 2 wounds is quite decent. They will never be as offensively potent as a Terminator, but nor as isolated as Termies can be. 

 

I think this is just another example of having a very good role based army can get you far, and playing the roles of the units is super important. 

[Kargrym]

Absolutely Prot, all bike groups are fine objective holders. I think though he ment the role of bikes in a kill team.

[Prot]

It appears overall people aren't liking bikes, but I do like them as their own unit, the Kill Team variant not so much. The whole aesthetic is just weird to me. :)

[leth]

I think bikes have a place the primary issue they have is that they are more difficult to transport.

 

If you think about it, for 36 points you get a 2 wound veteran, that has the same amount of fire power, brings a teleport homer as well as a unit special ability to the table. Effectively you are shaving off two points for comparable fire power against all single target damage. Take a unit of 5 bikes and 5 Veterans and you will be majority toughness 5 against most shooting.  

 

I think the main problem with all of these options that are not veterans is that the second you add them the transport cost basically goes to 250+ from either 70 or 100 and in that case they very rarely will justify the additional expenditure unless the entire squad is focused on that specialization.

 

If terminators can go in drop pods again soon we will have more options but until then it is either veteran only squads in rhinos/Razorbacks or combi squads in land raiders/Corvus(most likely corvus)

[Boyadventurer]

What are you guys thinking for serious anti-armour? The Frag cannons are nice, but even under the best circumstances (within 12", didn't move, T7 or 8 3+ save) a full squad of 4 is only doing about 5 wounds per turn. The twin Las seems like the only real option but they come on pretty expensive platforms. I guess the Razorback isn't too bad and gives some utility too.

Or do we just charge in with HTH?

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

What are you guys thinking for serious anti-armour? The Frag cannons are nice, but even under the best circumstances (within 12", didn't move, T7 or 8 3+ save) a full squad of 4 is only doing about 5 wounds per turn. The twin Las seems like the only real option but they come on pretty expensive platforms. I guess the Razorback isn't too bad and gives some utility too.

 

Or do we just charge in with HTH?

 

 

I like going for the Heavy Thunder Hammer as a finishing move. But for the most part, I think I'd rather just go with melta guns or combi-meltas 

[Irbis]

 

 

What about meltagun then, someone might ask. Well, DW vanguards can't take melta gun despite coming from chapters where every assault squad can take some. Maybe they forgot how to do it or something. Anyway, point is, no melta on deep strike for you. Except, oops, I lied - technically, termies can take a meltagun. Too bad it's paired up with terrible, overpriced power fist which you need to take if you want one.

 

So Drop Pods are completely off your radar now, then?  Don't talk about the cost, you're paying for the ability to "Deep Strike" and the protection implied in doing so (and the DP can be used to contest objectives, don't forget).  Beyond that, the Corvus is gaining traction and I'm pretty sure I can fit more than a few meltas in there.

 

As far as Inferno Pistols, I'd definitely agree those are trash from a purely "Deep Strike" perspective.  Grav probably falls in there too since optimal ranges for it start at 9" or less.  But I'd strongly argue that the Meltagun/Combi-Melta is still a very solid choice for nuking big gribblies on the way in, even if you don't get the half range bonus damage roll.

 

Short answer - yes.

 

Ok, let's ignore price, though that ignores vast majority of their weak points. Starting with the fact you're paying 300 points for a squad that is never going to make half of it back before it gets shot off the table. Strike one against drop pods is, well, the fact they are trivial to block. Look at my game report - I had problems with fitting 5 tiny vanguards in opponents rear, and eventually had to settle for flank attack. Had I tried to drop a pod, I'd pretty much be limited to my half of the table, meaning I'd just waste a 100 points that would be far better spent for razorback.

 

But ok, let's ignore that too. You have 5 MEQ with 4 meltas in not-quite half range, meaning you're dealing 4d6 damage. What else deals 4d6 damage, except on vastly more resilient platform, and across the table, for the same price? A land raider. Or two dreadnoughts. Except, they also come with two HB/two SB for extra anti-infantry capability, and transport capacity in LR case/heavy melee in dreadnoughts case. Both options outshine drop pod melta squad to such degree it's not even funny.

 

As for contesting objectives with drop pod, it's no longer 7th edition. 2 grots and you're not contesting anything. Singular model can only contest other singular models. So, moving on.

 

As for paying for deep stike, terminators and vanguard do it for free, with much less problematic footprint. While melta is really worthless on DW terminators (I honestly tried to fit them into my first game list really hard and I couldn't, eventually coming to conclusion they are only worthwhile with all-power sword loadout to make them cheap, something melta-fist bars, plus making one of them cost nearly as much as a whole tank) they can drop with budget assault cannons for really good dakka.

 

Vanguard can drop with massed pistols, vastly outstripping melta vets point for point (no, really, it's 2:1 difference in price, with just 2 out of 4 pistols having nearly same damage output as melta does on average if you overcharge them), with twice the wounds, attacks, speed, and yes, objective denial ability. I really like these guys now.

 

In fact, I'd argue that 10 vanguard vets with 10 SIA pistols rolling out 2+ to wound ammo/10 plasma pistols overcharging is the choice DW now has to nuke big monstrous creatures and melee death stars. Add a cheap buffer captain and they will drown everything you want in wounds, 5 of them wiping out reinforced IG vet squad in heavy cover despite the attempts of his commissar really made impression on both of us...

[Vel'Cona]

Interesting, hadn't noticed the blurb about having more models to claim objectives.  It's funny how much of the 8th edition changes are based in the scenarios, despite how similar they look to the 7th edition ones.  I find it's a very telling sign that DP are no longer de facto and people are actually looking at Terminators/Assault Marines to fill this classic role now (which IMO is as it should be).

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

I wonder, would a Terminator Librarian be more useful if he was kept for Deep Strike rather than just kept inside a Land Raider? I got a plan to basically have him teleport at a safe distance, and cast his powers from there. :D

[leth]

One thing I had not considered till now was using drop pods as Character protection as well as fire magnets.

 

With the character rules if there is a drop pod closer than they cant target the character until they kill it.  In effect unless they waste fire power on the drop pod our characters will have effectively freedom of movement.  Dont know how much that helps the deathwatch but it is something to think about.

[MeltaRange]

Thanks for the insight Irbis, this is great stuff.

 

 

 

 

Short answer - yes.

 

 

Ok, let's ignore price, though that ignores vast majority of their weak points. Starting with the fact you're paying 300 points for a squad that is never going to make half of it back before it gets shot off the table. Strike one against drop pods is, well, the fact they are trivial to block. Look at my game report - I had problems with fitting 5 tiny vanguards in opponents rear, and eventually had to settle for flank attack. Had I tried to drop a pod, I'd pretty much be limited to my half of the table, meaning I'd just waste a 100 points that would be far better spent for razorback.

 

 

I agree it's pretty easy to block on setting up, (esp Guard) but they can be brought in anytime before end of Turn 3, so it is a decent mechanism to use later in the game to reinforce a position, block enemy movement or potentially LoS, or deep strike into their rear.  I think of it as paying for flexibility.  Perhaps we need to think outside the box of 7th, where I'm taking as many pods as possible for a turn 1 alpha strike anywhere.  At the end of the day though I think you are right in that Vanguard Vets, with this ability already built into their cost, (and being only 10pts per 5) are better.

 

Of course I can easily just say "hold it in reserve longer" but that means you're fighting with a big chunk of your points in reserve for 2-3 turns.  Not great.

 

Overall though for tactical reasons I think it's at least not "garbage".  Is it optimal?  Probably not I guess.  I'll file it under "needs more testing"

 

But ok, let's ignore that too. You have 5 MEQ with 4 meltas in not-quite half range, meaning you're dealing 4d6 damage. What else deals 4d6 damage, except on vastly more resilient platform, and across the table, for the same price? A land raider. Or two dreadnoughts. Except, they also come with two HB/two SB for extra anti-infantry capability, and transport capacity in LR case/heavy melee in dreadnoughts case. Both options outshine drop pod melta squad to such degree it's not even funny.

 

 

Lascannons are also Str9, which can make a pretty big difference over Str8 (melta) in some cases.  Overall, I agree with you.  But, melta pods will be able to reach units that are out of LoS from your Land Raider/Dreadnaughts.  They also are allowed to be untargettable in the early turns should you wish to hold the drop pod in orbit.  So, overall I do agree with you.  Perhaps melta pods are not the way to go.

 

As for contesting objectives with drop pod, it's no longer 7th edition. 2 grots and you're not contesting anything. Singular model can only contest other singular models. So, moving on.

 

1>0 so it could potentially could hold an objective.  Versus other armies with reserve troops, you can drop your pod in an area where they would want to drop their reserves and form the 9" no-deploy bubble there.  But, agree, definitely inferior to Obj Sec in 7th.
 

As for paying for deep stike, terminators and vanguard do it for free, with much less problematic footprint. While melta is really worthless on DW terminators (I honestly tried to fit them into my first game list really hard and I couldn't, eventually coming to conclusion they are only worthwhile with all-power sword loadout to make them cheap, something melta-fist bars, plus making one of them cost nearly as much as a whole tank) they can drop with budget assault cannons for really good dakka.

In fact, I'd argue that 10 vanguard vets with 10 SIA pistols rolling out 2+ to wound ammo/10 plasma pistols overcharging is the choice DW now has to nuke big monstrous creatures and melee death stars. Add a cheap buffer captain and they will drown everything you want in wounds, 5 of them wiping out reinforced IG vet squad in heavy cover despite the attempts of his commissar really made impression on both of us...

 

 

 

I would have to agree.  I think the only thing I would say is that the drop pod itself can be used to block LoS and movement (say in a tight street between 2 buildings/impassible terrain) but otherwise yes, it appears VV are pretty good for this purpose (which is a great thing I'd say!)

 

I have a few games lined up for the weekend to test out a few Drop Pod units. (my 2000 pt lists all take one pod)  

 

One of them is 2x 5 man units in the same pod.  I have high hopes for this load out because one of the units has a Black Shield w/ TH, a Watch Sergeant with TH, a Vet with HTH and 2 bolter vets.  Since there is no longer any scatter, this unit will be (hopefully) placed in a precise way so that the unit cannot be charged, but will be able to do a Heroic Intervention to reinforce another one of my units that will get charged.  Since charging units can only attack the unit they actually charged, that leaves my Black Shield's unit to get 2 Fight Phases without being able to be struck.

 

Crude Drawing

http://imgur.com/a/z5yRo

 

The green is the enemy unit.  The grey is a friendly unit already on the board (or the other 5 man unit in the drop pod).  The red is the Black Shield's unit.

 

When the green unit charges the grey unit, the red unit will do a heroic intervention and strike with 3 hammers.  Then it's my turn, and I could choose to strike again with this unit so as to swing twice with heavy melee weapons before I can be attacked back.

Anyway, just a couple thoughts on the merits of drop pods.

 

One thing I had not considered till now was using drop pods as Character protection as well as fire magnets.

 

With the character rules if there is a drop pod closer than they cant target the character until they kill it.  In effect unless they waste fire power on the drop pod our characters will have effectively freedom of movement.  Dont know how much that helps the deathwatch but it is something to think about.

 

VERY good point!  Love it!

 

You could have a plasma squad come down in a pod with a Watch Master.  If you deployed in a way where your plasma vets were partially surrounding the Watch Master on one side, and the drop pod was on the other side, it would be tough to target him directly without destroying the other units.

[Yodhrin]

So, question; I noted the OP mentioning using FW stuff to bolster DW's weaker areas, but does that not necessitate taking a non-DW detachment? I'm not seeing anything in the FW Index that overrides that ridiculous list in the GW Index, so you still can't take say a Leviathan because Leviathans aren't explicitly permitted to bear the Deathwatch keyword.

[leth]

So, question; I noted the OP mentioning using FW stuff to bolster DW's weaker areas, but does that not necessitate taking a non-DW detachment? I'm not seeing anything in the FW Index that overrides that ridiculous list in the GW Index, so you still can't take say a Leviathan because Leviathans aren't explicitly permitted to bear the Deathwatch keyword.

 

If this is the case then neither can Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels.

[Mobius0288]

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

[leth]

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

 

RAW I agree, however I will be treating things with the assumption that it is an error on their part, like how with FW renegades they dont actually give up their Astra Militarum Key word.  NO vultures and vendettas in a renegades army IMO