8th Edition DW Tactica

[Kargrym]

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

 Unless I have something wrong, until there is a Codex that gives benefits on an all <Deathwatch> Battle-Forged army, you can have the detachment be an <Imperium> army without a problem.

[leth]

 

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

 Unless I have something wrong, until there is a Codex that gives benefits on an all <Deathwatch> Battle-Forged army, you can have the detachment be an <Imperium> army without a problem.

 

 

we are talking about the FW stuff benefiting from army specific rules/stuff like a captains aura, or being able to transport army units

[Vel'Cona]

Which I don't think we'll be able to solve here since the "intent" seems clear while the RAW conflicts directly.  Unfortunately, I think our hands are tied until GW pops a FAQ, at least officially.  From a personal perspective, if a DW player plonked down a Storm Eagle or a Contemptor Mortis, I would have no problems with those benefiting from Faction buffs, but that doesn't do much for the competitive scene.

[Mobius0288]

 

 

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

 Unless I have something wrong, until there is a Codex that gives benefits on an all <Deathwatch> Battle-Forged army, you can have the detachment be an <Imperium> army without a problem.

 

 

we are talking about the FW stuff benefiting from army specific rules/stuff like a captains aura, or being able to transport army units

 

 

Ya usually people throw a fit about this topic because they either want the special issue ammunition rule to apply or the transport thing. TBH though, they built in those detachments for just this reason. You can still make it work legitimately. I can still my deredeo dreadnaught in deathwatch colors, it just won't specifically be in my battalion list, it would be an auxiliary.

 

If people choose to include them within the battalion, I'd be understanding of it as long as it made sense. I'm easy going and just want to have fun.

 

That imperium themed army sounds cool but I wouldn't be surprised if that gets FAQ'd. I mean, can you really see that being fair against non-imperium armies? Mixing in Astra, Custodes and DW kill teams; filling in things randomly? Oh lets dig into this one:

 

3-4 Astra troop choices so I can get some numbers on the board, maybe some tar pit options

2-3 kill teams specialized with frag cannons for front line murdering and possible vehicle/MC support

1-2 Sisters of silence so I can harass/counter some psycher-shenanigans

1 VV unit to deepstrike, all with plasma pistols

1-2 Astra tanks

1-2 flyers, we can analyze the blackstar vs vandetta

 

Have I broken 1200 pts yet? It doesn't sound fun at all and it's kinda hard to believe they intended for that. ya know? im not against the idea, especially if you get into a tournament type of setting. IDK... need a FAQ. People hype up the imperium themed army but then you can have instances where they become the new "deathstars" or "eldar trickery"

 

sorry guys, off soap-box

[Kargrym]

Ok, I'll bite... Let's do minimum loadouts

 

3-4 Astra troop choices so I can get some numbers on the board, maybe some tar pit options... Veterans 60pts per 10 man. 180-240 pts

2-3 kill teams specialized with frag cannons for front line murdering and possible vehicle/MC support...5 man kill team with 4 frag cannons, 215 pts. 430-645 pts

1-2 Sisters of silence so I can harass/counter some psycher-shenanigans... Going cheap, just bolter 5 man teams. 60-120pts

1 VV unit to deepstrike, all with plasma pistols 140pts

1-2 Astra tanks...this can swing big so I'm going basic Leman Russ. 162-324 pts

1-2 flyers, we can analyze the blackstar vs vandetta... This is the Deathwatch forum so I'm going with Corvus 234-468 pts.

 

That totals minimum 1206 for 7 units and 2 vehicles with minimum loadouts and 1937 for 10 units and 4 vehicles with minimum loadouts.

 

I'll say you woul have 8 units and 3 vehicles with upgrades and sit at 2000 pts. Now you just need some hqs at 100+ each and you can field it.

 

I really don't see how this build is too much different than the Celestine/Custodes/Assassin mashups deathwatch was using in 7th.

[leth]

 

 

 

We brought this up in the FW topic already, but yes you'd have to take FW stuff in a separate detachment from DW (auxiliary, super-heavy, etc.) until a published FAQ comes out saying otherwise.

 Unless I have something wrong, until there is a Codex that gives benefits on an all <Deathwatch> Battle-Forged army, you can have the detachment be an <Imperium> army without a problem.

 

 

we are talking about the FW stuff benefiting from army specific rules/stuff like a captains aura, or being able to transport army units

 

 

Ya usually people throw a fit about this topic because they either want the special issue ammunition rule to apply or the transport thing. TBH though, they built in those detachments for just this reason. You can still make it work legitimately. I can still my deredeo dreadnaught in deathwatch colors, it just won't specifically be in my battalion list, it would be an auxiliary.

 

If people choose to include them within the battalion, I'd be understanding of it as long as it made sense. I'm easy going and just want to have fun.

 

That imperium themed army sounds cool but I wouldn't be surprised if that gets FAQ'd. I mean, can you really see that being fair against non-imperium armies? Mixing in Astra, Custodes and DW kill teams; filling in things randomly? Oh lets dig into this one:

 

3-4 Astra troop choices so I can get some numbers on the board, maybe some tar pit options

2-3 kill teams specialized with frag cannons for front line murdering and possible vehicle/MC support

1-2 Sisters of silence so I can harass/counter some psycher-shenanigans

1 VV unit to deepstrike, all with plasma pistols

1-2 Astra tanks

1-2 flyers, we can analyze the blackstar vs vandetta

 

Have I broken 1200 pts yet? It doesn't sound fun at all and it's kinda hard to believe they intended for that. ya know? im not against the idea, especially if you get into a tournament type of setting. IDK... need a FAQ. People hype up the imperium themed army but then you can have instances where they become the new "deathstars" or "eldar trickery"

 

sorry guys, off soap-box

 

 

Considering they specifically say that you can do this, yes it was intentional.  However you have to remember that almost all of a units additional power comes from army synergies, astra getting commissars and orders, marines getting buff bubbles.

 

Optimized units are possible, however once you factor in auras they are no longer optimized.  The more auras you have to buy the fewer units you are covering for the points.

 

So in many ways it balances itself out.  You can take from all of these different factions but you are actually getting less in many areas as you lose access to the improved efficiency

[Irbis]

 

Considering they specifically say that you can do this, yes it was intentional.  However you have to remember that almost all of a units additional power comes from army synergies, astra getting commissars and orders, marines getting buff bubbles.

 

Optimized units are possible, however once you factor in auras they are no longer optimized.  The more auras you have to buy the fewer units you are covering for the points.

 

So in many ways it balances itself out.  You can take from all of these different factions but you are actually getting less in many areas as you lose access to the improved efficiency

 

Eh, dunno about that. Some of these units are so cheap adding the characters doesn't really improve their efficiency, it's just nice bonus on top, but also something you can live without. Even in DW case, a squad of vanguard veterans with plasma pistols doesn't really need captain backing them up, he is just nice insurance policy. Even on overload, you will statistically lose less than one marine so if target is juicy enough, you can safely risk it. Doubly so in case of drop Tempestus squads that are so cheap in comparison...

[shandwen]

So, I have wondered just how useful many of our upgrades actually end up being. For instance the options for kill team Marines.

Frag cannons: solid shot just doesn't have the damage potential for me. D2 just doesn't do enough to validate the cost, and the anti horde shot takes great manuvering to use it to it's potential.

Infernus HB: it needs assault back to be useful.

Shotguns: having an actual cost hurts their usefulness. I was a fan of these in 7th when it was a free trade, but other options give more reliable damage. That said a squad full of these and a vanguard to disengage would be brutal.

Stalker bolters: I will never leave these at home. The small cost to add range and an extra shot means they will provide good cheap board coverage.

Combi weapons: I think here is the better option to provide anti tank power. Combi meltas and plasma provide slightly cheaper and more flexible usage than our heavies, and the -1 for shooting both matters less as it isn't too expensive to have a watch master nearby.

Power weapons: the axe is best, but that's why it is slightly more expensive. Swords and mauls can both be useful, but mauls being able to would most stuff on 3's might be better than the large reduction in same from the sword, so it all seems fairly pointed.

Thunder hammers: regular TH's do reiable damage with a good AP. HTH's provide irreliable damage with a good AP. The loss of the second weapon means the higher points cost means the regular one is probably better, probably.

[Irbis]

Frag cannons: solid shot just doesn't have the damage potential for me. D2 just doesn't do enough to validate the cost, and the anti horde shot takes great manuvering to use it to it's potential.

 

Combi weapons: I think here is the better option to provide anti tank power. Combi meltas and plasma provide slightly cheaper and more flexible usage than our heavies, and the -1 for shooting both matters less as it isn't too expensive to have a watch master nearby.

 

More flexible? How?

 

Let's see, Frag cannon deals four damage (two shots) at 12 inches, combi-melta deals ~3.5. Except, Frag has all important S9 (2+ on T4 and 3+ on T8) unlike melta's S8, behaves like autocannon to 24, has built-in S6 flamer, and is much more reliable (on lucky roll melta will deal 2 more damage than Frag but on unlucky it will deal 4 less). If anything, combi-melta is the synonym of lack of flexibility as it can only do one job right. Frag can take on anything at least sort of OK.

 

As for combi-plasma, meh. I don't like exploding yourself if you fire it to maximum potential. It requires some math hammer but I still feel equivalent points of frag is better as it doesn't lose a big percent of effectiveness with each wound. Plus, IMHO vanguard does plasma better. And Watch Master re-rolls were nerfed so it's not that reliable and risky still.

 

And I still disagree on axe being best in any way. Sword is minimally worse last I saw, and seeing it has big price drop percentage wise compared to axe, it comes clearly ahead. Plus, you forgot about xenophase, the look on terminator and ogryn face when you tell them to forget their ++ saves is gold

[shandwen]

Yeah, didn't have time to cover every weapon, but exploding from plasma will be rare when supported (and I do believe watch master are the only viable he choice even with the odd order of operations with modifiers and rerolls).

From my gameplay the frags always led to an avoidance bubble, and to me wishing I had more bullet sponges in that squad. I only had one turn within 12" with it, as kill teams are glass cannons.

Vanguard plasma spam does have some nice advantages, but I do believe it is highly situational (still worth bringing a squad for sure).

[Moostick]

The issue with frag cannons is not that they aren't good. It's that they're not good enough to justify 30 points for their damage output.

[Sea-People]

One tactic I'm mulling over in my head is filling corvus blackstars with kill teams loaded with combi meltas. Thought process is that the blackstar(s) can take out hoards with assault cannons and blackstar launchers while the kill teams can be dropped off right in melta range of heavies, and then use special issue ammo to finish off whatever is left. Deathwatch has poor long range shooting, so it might makes sense to fly your shooting right into point blank range!

 

Only problem is that tempestus scions can do the exact same thing for cheaper. But I guess durability counts for something right...

[Irbis]

Weren't Tempestus just nerfed in FAQ? That might bring them close to DW price point

 

As for combis, Moostick, 30 pts for frag might be pushing it, but it does maximize ablative wounds. Same point of combi-guns will start to lose effectiveness much sooner.

 

Really, I'd be happy if we could take 3-4 plasma guns on a squad without paying SIA cost on it, but alas, Sternguard/CS do that much better. Which is why I am gravitating towards VV with it, they at least get some nice use of SIA with offhand bolt pistol and have much easier time getting where they are needed. Pity DW doesn't have some sort of equivalent of GK purgation squads though...

[Moostick]

I don't think maximizing ablative wounds is something to be considered a boon. With DW, we can't really even afford ablative wounds.

 

As much as I'd like to laud the FC, and not even comparing it with any particular weapon, it's just no longer worth its cost in 8th. It used to be a lascannon up close with Assault 2! But with how Heavies work now, and it now being just a budget Lascannon, it's just not worth it anymore. I see people saying it's does great in matches and such, but with the amount we're paying it's kind of expected considering it's one of the single most expensive weapons in the entire SM arsenal (twinlinked excluded).

 

I've said it before, but they need to up its D with <12" range. HTH and IHB are great weapons too. They're just not great for their cost; FC just isn't as bad.

[Finkmilkana]

As a lascannon the FC is not worth it anymore, but it is better and cheaper than two heavy flamers. Now, I do feel all the heavier "template" weapons are a bit too expensive, but among them it is still one of the best. With Str 6 it even wounds guardsmen on a 2. I feel like this time around the flamer version is supposed to be the main draw, with the solid shell only a nice addition to add some flexibility. Whether a kill team really needs 2 heavy flamers is a different question.

[Irbis]

I don't think maximizing ablative wounds is something to be considered a boon. With DW, we can't really even afford ablative wounds.

 

It is a boon in the sense that you still have to take mandatory 5 guys and your squad keeps their main damage output if you lose 4 of them. With combi-weapons, even 2-3 dead guy start to cost you effectiveness, and killing 2 marines is easy (which on flip side is also why I like VV, you start losing effectiveness with every wound but single plasma pistol is cheap enough you can afford to be agressive with these unlike with combi-guns).

 

And if you think of Frag as too expensive, imagine it as a combi-gun costing 15 points that you take on two marines, combining single better heavy-flamer and autocannon. Doesn't sound that expensive now compared to other options, eh? I just consider it worthwhile because next to grav cannon, it's the only SM weapon that threatens both hordes and singular hard targets, that is, two things SIA fails to address...

[Prot]

The thing about the Fragcannon is overwatch. A fame killer fir me is ending up in CC where my Deathwatch usually fall apart in weight if numbers. I love our cc options for fun but if anything those very cc options feel so expensive.

 

So to me the next best thing is CC deterrent. No one like charging from over 9" away, and even fewer like charging Frag cannons from 8" away.

 

I'm trying to include VV just fir the get out of jail card. Just... it all gets so expensive. At the end of the day it is the basic flexibility of the FC that keeps me coming back to it. I never list tailor so I always have to be flexible and the FC does help with that. The SIA helps with the rest.

[Moostick]

And if you think of Frag as too expensive, imagine it as a combi-gun costing 15 points that you take on two marines, combining single better heavy-flamer and autocannon. Doesn't sound that expensive now compared to other options, eh? I just consider it worthwhile because next to grav cannon, it's the only SM weapon that threatens both hordes and singular hard targets, that is, two things SIA fails to address...

No, it's still expensive. Thinking like that, we would not think the IHB is expensive either, which would be lying to ourselves. As others have mentioned, and as I have mentioned before, I'd much rather just get the BA version for 19 pts.

 

I won't disagree that it's one of the only DW weapons that are versatile, but again, at its cost it should be MVP every game, washing my car, and tucking me in at night.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

 

No, it's still expensive. Thinking like that, we would not think the IHB is expensive either, which would be lying to ourselves. As others have mentioned, and as I have mentioned before, I'd much rather just get the BA version for 19 pts.

 

I won't disagree that it's one of the only DW weapons that are versatile, but again, at its cost it should be MVP every game, washing my car, and tucking me in at night.

 

I'd have to disagree a little bit as well, it's took a knock but it's still worth taking in some circumstances. In a combi-melta squad for example, it can still contribute to the squad's anti-tank role but also offer a little bit of protection from enemy charges with the frag. The relatively high price doesn't seem as steep when you consider it as a defensive upgrade on a combi-melta. You really can't just look at the numbers and make a judgement solely based on that. You need to consider how it will synergise with the rest of the squad. It provides good protection from counter-assaults to combi-units disembarking from transports whilst also performing well at any other role you want it to.

[Irbis]

 

No, it's still expensive. Thinking like that, we would not think the IHB is expensive either, which would be lying to ourselves.

 

Eh, not really. Heavy bolter component is bad, barely better than SIA bolter, and worse in a lot of cases. Heavy flamer with its 3-4 hits and short range is nothing to write home about, either. In this case, the math actually works out to being mediocre. Hell, take two IHB, compare them to single Frag, and they will look worse despite being more expensive and also heavy instead of assault. I'd still take single frag on everything that is not stalker squad or (maybe) massed combi-plasma with captain support...

[leth]

Frag cannons are actually HUGELY effective for their price point.  If you consider that on its own a twin heavy flamer is 7 more points, is heavy, and one less strength. With the modifiers to hit being so powerful(see fliers) I can understand the pricing now. Add on that they are all assault profiles and the ability to chase fliers down is pretty significant. 

 

Take our frag cannon coming out of a transport- 3+base+6+d6+8 - Our flamer range is effectively 19 to 25 or 23 to 29 for our solid shot frag cannon.

 

(working on math now, will post it soon 

[Moostick]

I will backpedal a bit as I realize I sounded like a absolutely hated the FC.

 

I don't. I do bring one or two, but I still don't think it's worth the points. I bring it because there's nothing else to bring. Is it army breaking overpriced? No, not nearly as bad as the IHB, but it still is. Maybe people have different results, but the FC never performs everything it's capable of because it never lasts long. It goes in, gets one or two shots off to do its job and then dies. I send it in with a purpose, where flexibility is generally not needed. May get lucky once in a while and they survive longer, but unlikely.

 

I would much rather get the 19 pts version as the flamer portion is the best part about it. I'd rather spend that 11 pt tax on something else.

 

Also disagree with the flamers chasing fliers. Why waste a unit for that when someone would just fire their super heavy at it? Advancing so everyone else can't fire, wounding on a 4 or 5, and still giving them a save 4/5+ save? Come on now. That's a terrible use of them.

 

FC will make a comeback if they give us SS for 5 points. Then we can go with the idea of a 10-man moving maxed FC unit and maxed SS (stick a Vanguard with SS in for fallback). It would at least be hilarious.

[leth]

I will backpedal a bit as I realize I sounded like a absolutely hated the FC.

 

I don't. I do bring one or two, but I still don't think it's worth the points. I bring it because there's nothing else to bring. Is it army breaking overpriced? No, not nearly as bad as the IHB, but it still is. Maybe people have different results, but the FC never performs everything it's capable of because it never lasts long. It goes in, gets one or two shots off to do its job and then dies. I send it in with a purpose, where flexibility is generally not needed. May get lucky once in a while and they survive longer, but unlikely.

 

I would much rather get the 19 pts version as the flamer portion is the best part about it. I'd rather spend that 11 pt tax on something else.

 

Also disagree with the flamers chasing fliers. Why waste a unit for that when someone would just fire their super heavy at it? Advancing so everyone else can't fire, wounding on a 4 or 5, and still giving them a save 4/5+ save? Come on now. That's a terrible use of them.

 

FC will make a comeback if they give us SS for 5 points. Then we can go with the idea of a 10-man moving maxed FC unit and maxed SS (stick a Vanguard with SS in for fallback). It would at least be hilarious.

 

I was saying that it is an option, not necessarily that you would need to advance to get in range.  As I laid out in my initial posts per point it is actually quite effective against fliers and on top of that has significant versatility against a larger range of targets where a Lascannon will lose some power. 

[Moostick]

If you discuss what they can do rather than what they will do, then the FC would be amazing. The flamer would have unlimited range (still think solid sucks). We need to take into account a very important thing, which is effective range. Will a lascannon in cover at 40+" away more likely survive longer than a FC at 10" away? Your opponent would need to dedicate a strike force to efficiently dispose of the lascannons compared to the FC unit who would likely die in 1 or 2 turns at most.

 

I'm interested to hear how trying to chase a flier with a flamer will actually work out, provided your opponent doesn't deliver to you on a platter. I've never tried it, but I would assume we move our transport close enough, and on the next turn the enemy flier is across the board or behind a mob, and you lose your chance.

[leth]

If they are willing to be that out of position then its fine by me nice thing about the frag cannon is its versatility. Also sure it is going to die if you shoot it up the gut solo into their entire army. I am saying it provides an opportunity and should be considered as a possible option should the opportunity present itself.  If we are going to be pedantic then factor in the lascannon will need to move more often and as a result will suffer significant penalties to hit. 

 

However if you want to limit your playbook then feel free.  Not my job to convince you.