8th Edition DW Tactica

[Moostick]

Why would the flier be out of position? It only needs to move slightly to be out of frag range; even less if allies are nearby. And if it's not hovering, it has to move generally >20" away anyways. Look, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but the situations you use to say the FC is good are extremely ideal situations. How often is one ever going to be able to drive a transport up turn 1, hope your opponent doesn't move the flier, and then be able to disembark turn 2 to flame it?  I feel like you're giving very poor information, which is why I feel the need to voice against it. You don't factor in anything other than what it can do. Things like the range, positioning afforded by said range, and your opponent's anticipated response. I don't say this in a dismissing way, but have you actually tried any of these tactics that the FC would do "exceedingly well" in? The FC has been good for me, but it has not been good enough. Solid rounds have been especially mediocre, which seems to be an afterthought for everyone anyways, as the main draw for most people is the flamer. You can use/support a weapon, but still feel it's not as good as its point cost.

 

When you're within 12" range there are a lot more threats to it compared to being more than 12" away. Getting flanked is easier, getting charged is easier, and a lot more guns will be in range. With what I've seen so far, most people don't separate their units very much now, and melee focus is still rare for many armies. Maybe my opponents are smart, but if they see the FC once, they counter it easily the next time. Yes, the FC is good, but it needs to be under 12" to be good. And a dead FC is a useless FC.

 

Test playing is obviously the best way to figure things out, but you need to have some foresight when theory crafting. For example, Irbis' suggestion with Vanguards was great. Drop in behind enemy lines to snipe characters/high value targets. However, the issue I found right away is that for that to work, it will depend on your opponent making a positioning mistake. You never plan a strategy that depends on a mistake. This issue was kind of dismissed when I first said it, but from Irbis' latest batrep, he found out the issue was a reality. It was an excellent plan and the gunslingers have a role (I use them myself following his first post about them), but finding out what could make a something not work is important in coming up with a strategy. Don't just blindly support a weapon and use ideal situations to drum it up. I would love for the FC to be amazing. It defined DW in 7th. But it just isn't as amazing anymore until they boost the solid rounds, or provide something to protect a large unit of them. I would seriously love to try a FC/SS train.

[leth]

Why would the flier be out of position? It only needs to move slightly to be out of frag range; even less if allies are nearby. And if it's not hovering, it has to move generally >20" away anyways. Look, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but the situations you use to say the FC is good are extremely ideal situations. How often is one ever going to be able to drive a transport up turn 1, hope your opponent doesn't move the flier, and then be able to disembark turn 2 to flame it?  I feel like you're giving very poor information, which is why I feel the need to voice against it. You don't factor in anything other than what it can do. Things like the range, positioning afforded by said range, and your opponent's anticipated response. I don't say this in a dismissing way, but have you actually tried any of these tactics that the FC would do "exceedingly well" in? The FC has been good for me, but it has not been good enough. Solid rounds have been especially mediocre, which seems to be an afterthought for everyone anyways, as the main draw for most people is the flamer. You can use/support a weapon, but still feel it's not as good as its point cost.

 

When you're within 12" range there are a lot more threats to it compared to being more than 12" away. Getting flanked is easier, getting charged is easier, and a lot more guns will be in range. With what I've seen so far, most people don't separate their units very much now, and melee focus is still rare for many armies. Maybe my opponents are smart, but if they see the FC once, they counter it easily the next time. Yes, the FC is good, but it needs to be under 12" to be good. And a dead FC is a useless FC.

 

Test playing is obviously the best way to figure things out, but you need to have some foresight when theory crafting. For example, Irbis' suggestion with Vanguards was great. Drop in behind enemy lines to snipe characters/high value targets. However, the issue I found right away is that for that to work, it will depend on your opponent making a positioning mistake. You never plan a strategy that depends on a mistake. This issue was kind of dismissed when I first said it, but from Irbis' latest batrep, he found out the issue was a reality. It was an excellent plan and the gunslingers have a role (I use them myself following his first post about them), but finding out what could make a something not work is important in coming up with a strategy. Don't just blindly support a weapon and use ideal situations to drum it up. I would love for the FC to be amazing. It defined DW in 7th. But it just isn't as amazing anymore until they boost the solid rounds, or provide something to protect a large unit of them. I would seriously love to try a FC/SS train.

 

I never said that it would be just a straight up the gut shot.  I said it was a possible application should the situation present itself.  Yes if I just send in one unit right to the middle of the board by itself and say to my opponent "COMIN FOR YO FLIER" then it is not going to work out.  However I find that a lot of times fliers are coming right at you or are transporting units themselves. Or things like the vulture only have a 24inch effective range.  In which case you get approx 4 inches out of a transport, 6 inch move, and then 8 inch range for an 18 inch threat range minimum from any transport.  Not an insignificant area of the board to cover.  Even then your solid shells have a 22 inch threat range from a transport.  Once again options. 

[MeltaRange]

 

Once again options. 

 

 

Sometimes I think the obsession with optimization means that the brain rejects paying points for flexibility.  Which I get, since it's pretty effective to spam redundant units with one particular purpose to ensure a job is done.  I think flexibility has more of a place in 8th though.  I've only played 4 games though.

 

I actually don't mind D2 either, esp compared to weapons with damage D3.  Rolling a 1 or 2 against a 2 wound model is so annoying, forcing you to waste another wounding shot to finish it off. 

[KGatch113]

I was thinking of trying this.

 

2 Kill Teams with frag cannons and 1 watch master, come down in drop pods. 6 inch bubble for rerolls.

 

Drop in terminators and VV, also within the bubble. Add in plasma pistols and...well...expensive storm shields.

 

That gives you a death dealing firebase, hopefully covering objectives and allowing you to wipe several units. The terminators act as a counter attack unit, hopefully deterring anything big and nasty. The VV can move and shoot, providing good harrassing fire and offing any small units. 

 

Throw in the right support units, maybe a razorback or two with twin assault cannons, a callidus or vindicare....

 

 

I'd love to throw on some combi weapons onto the guys I have made already...might have to paint up some new guys. 

[Irbis]

Isn't that 11 models in 10 model drop pod?

[FenrirTheFeisty]

Hi guys,

 

I am new to Deathwatch and am starting to build an army. I see a lot of back and forth on the worthyness off comi weapons ang frag cannons. my question is is it worth to put shotguns in Kill-Teams and what kind of role should this squad play in the new 8th edition?

[Irbis]

 

I am new to Deathwatch and am starting to build an army. I see a lot of back and forth on the worthyness off comi weapons ang frag cannons. my question is is it worth to put shotguns in Kill-Teams and what kind of role should this squad play in the new 8th edition?

 

The back and forth is because one side doesn't like frag, the other combi. If either is good in your local scene depends largely on who you play. I think one frag per squad is pretty good, though.

 

The shotguns can be OK on some squads, but generally, most of people here consider them pretty overpriced. With cheap mix of chain/power swords, though, they might work OK in casual group...

[KGatch113]

Isn't that 11 models in 10 model drop pod?

It wouldn't be a full squad, obviously.

 

Now the real key is figuring our how to beat 4 Marine flyers....

[Vel'Cona]

Now the real key is figuring our how to beat 4 Marine flyers....

 

Take 4 of your own?  Or just don't play that guy (or should I say, That Guy ).

[Moostick]

Maybe someone can confirm this, but with Overwatch, do you have to have LoS before the charge?

 

I'm wondering if you can have two Vanguard units, move both close to an enemy unit with the front unit obscuring the rear unit, and charge with the rear unit over the front unit to deny Overwatch since technically the enemy unit did not have LoS before the charge. If yes, this might be a good way to get a Jump Captain into melee without getting shot up.

[Irbis]

Yes, you have to have LOS, but the model would need to be 100% obscured for it to work. Something like Rhino would work, other infantry, I don't think (seeing units no longer provide any cover save to anything behind)...

[CrimsonReign]

so i took frag cannons in my last DW game - and killed half my opponents army with overwatch (one unit can fire overwatch multiple times)

 

i don't think he'll be charging into them again any time soon (though I'm surprised he carried on charging after the first two units died...)

[Nurgleprobe]

Nice one Crimson, curious what you played against.

Also, how are the Kill Teams looking for people at this point? Is there any gear that has been doing alot better than you first thought it would, and are there points you wish you would have put else where? I guess the "age old" question also could be: Are you shooting or charging the most in 8th?

 

[Irbis]

Stalker patter bolters are better than I thought, though I still think they are overpriced. They either need big points drop or slight buff (mortal wounds on 6? character targeting?).

 

And shooting, seeing it's far better in DW than melee, though having 3 attacks on all vets (and power weapons on sarge/bs) is pretty nice.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I think Stalkers would be perfect with an innate AP-1. I'd prefer mortal wounds on a 6 but that's far less likely.

[Moostick]

Stalkers are pretty much a budget, but more versatile, heavy bolters.

 

For the HB, you pay 6 pts for +1 S and +1 shot, which can arguably be worth it, but with the stalker you have a couple more options in AP+1/-RNG or Poison 2+ (because the cover ammo sucks and I pretend it doesn't exist). I initially didn't like them either, but the cost actually makes sense.

 

Shooting is definitely way more prominent still. I run a 10-man melee unit just for fun though. They do OK.

[leth]

Frag cannons in my games have been very powerful.  I just happened to play against yannari....killing units just got me killed but that was mostly not down to understanding how soul burst works.  Now that I am more aware it should not be a problem again.

 

So be careful with overwatching frag cannons against Yannari.  If you kill the unit you are probably guaranteeing a charge from a different unit on something else.

[CrimsonReign]

NurgleProbe - i was playing against harlequins 

 

3 frag cannons was overkill for taking down vehicles and units alike - the rest of the unit was basically ablative wounds 

[hmk17]

Right now I'm trying to figure a decent all-comers load-out for my Watch Captains. 

 

Currently they get a Xeno-phase blade and a grav pistol in order to be able to mix it up with infantry as need be. However, I keep finding my opponents will send huge things in to tie them up or over power them. Just the other knight I had a Wraithlord followed by Wraithknight single him out to keep him away from squishy Eldar infantry. 

 

I'm thinking the go-to 15pts of combi-plasma might help dissuade things more as it is a higher volume of higher strength shots. 

[shandwen]

The aura from the captain is only a weaker version of the watchmasters, and when equipped to cc/shooting they are roughly equivalent (even points wise). So unless running a jumppack captain I would just take the watchmaster.

[Vel'Cona]

The aura from the captain is only a weaker version of the watchmasters, and when equipped to cc/shooting they are roughly equivalent (even points wise). So unless running a jumppack captain I would just take the watchmaster.

 

That's a small advantage DW have over generic SM: we can take multiple Watch Masters where all SM Chapter Masters (who share the same re-roll aura) are Unique.  It's not a huge benefit but there are ways to use it.

[leth]

So now that we got our FW units back the deathwatch are back on the menu.

 

One thing I think is important is to look at which units we can get that can take advantage of our cheap watchmasters. 

 

Things like the Deredeo also lend themselves well to a FW heavy Deathwatch force with their 5+ invul bubble that effectively applys to single models within 6 inches. 

[Bluthusten]

I'm new to DW and played the following List (1250 points)

 

Killteam 1:

 

5 Veterans, 5 Combi-Melta, 5 Chainsword

 

Killteam 2:

 

5 Veterans, 2 FragCanons, 3 Boltguns/ Chainsword

 

Killteam 3:

 

5 Veterans, 2 Missilelauncher, 3 Boltguns/ Chainsword

 

Killteam 4:

 

1 Sergeant (E-Sword), 1 Blackshield (E-Sword), Vanguard (E-Claws), Biker, 2 Fragcanons, 1 Veteran with Boltgun/ Chainsword

 

1 Razorback with LasCanon

 

1 Rhino with Stormbolter

 

1 Corvus Blackstar

 

 

What i have to say:

 

Lazorback + 2 Missiles + Rerolls (Watchmaster) are pretty solid against Vehicle and the 5 Melterguys are nice too. I like the Option to Fire Boltguns with the SIA or/AND the Melta.

 

 

In higher games ill add a 2nd Squad of Missile Launcher guys and Maybe a 2nd Razorback oder a Dreadnough for shooting.

 

 

The "mixed" Killteam in black corvus is pretty cool too. The Flyer himself has a solid loadout.

[KGatch113]

Frag cannons in my games have been very powerful.  I just happened to play against yannari....killing units just got me killed but that was mostly not down to understanding how soul burst works.  Now that I am more aware it should not be a problem again.

 

So be careful with overwatching frag cannons against Yannari.  If you kill the unit you are probably guaranteeing a charge from a different unit on something else.

 

 

The local guy dominating play/tournaments right now runs a Yannari list with a Wraithknight. I'm racking my head to come up with a good TAC list that can also deal with that ( and the rest of his list are shiniing spears and wave serpent fire dragons).

[shandwen]

I played a game this last weekend that I found the frag cannons to be a worthy investment.

Top of turn one I flew right into the middle of the enemy army with my blackstar (who failed miserably to hurt some centurians) while it was loaded with a kill team including two termies and two frag cannons. His whole army reacted to the blackstar... Long story short he did kill it, and I used a command point to rerolls the blow up (and killed a character, dropped helbrect to one wound, finished a venerable dread off and thinned out two squads of infantry). He charged with a crusader squad that lost all but two models to my frag cannons. I'm pretty sure I will use this tactic again. It gave me the iniative and field control.