8th Edition DW Tactica

[shandwen]

Oh, and to add to my last post, I made great use of a teleport home in the middle of my back line. As it was a kill points mission and he had a few heavily depleted units on the opposite side of the board from my main squad, a turn 5 jump of my largest kill team caught him unprepared and netted me two additional kill points.

[leth]

So what do you guys think now that we can get primaris in our armies.  The main issue I run into is that they basically get NOTHING from being deathwatch since all of our special rules dont apply to their weapons.  Hell they still didnt give the rule to our characters. 

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I think Reivers give good, cheap bodies, though I haven't used them yet. Not sure whether to use knives or carbines with them, though. Aggressors also could be a good distraction while our Frag Cannons and Blackstars get into position.

[leth]

My problem is that I would almost always rather take them as their own detachment so they can get the chapter tactics bonuses

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

There's no reason not to do it until we get our own book, I guess, unless you want the aura from a Watch Captain/Master. The Auxiliary detachment would be good for that, basically giving a squad of Primaris dudes chapter tactics without having to go all in on a larger detachment. I doubt most players would have an issue if your only Primaris dudes had a Chapter Tactic while still being painted Deathwatch.

[Aothaine]

Been looking at a lot of different rules, the new space marine codex included, and found myself drawn back to Deathwatch. Knowing what I know now and the limitations of other factions the Deathwatch are is a decently good position.

 

The kill teams are amazing with the teleport homers as an additional ability to move them around. They then have the buffs granted by terminators, bikers and Veteran Vanguards. So we now auto pass morale, can shoot after falling back(better than Ultra Marine chapter tactic as we already have 9 ld with the sergeant), can charge after falling back (White scars chapter tactic). This is crazy good.

 

Also the kill team fits perfectly into the Corvus which is damn good now. Still looking into the points but I wonder if you could field a 2k list with two kill teams, two corvus, 4 5-man vets with ranged focus with in four razorbacks with twin assault cannons... with a watchmaster and some extra dudes... still getting used to the points though.

 

Something else I want to point out is that Deathwatch VVs beat every assault marine in the game right now. They are the example of what assault squads should be, the basic veterans all have two attacks, and Deathwatch still have access to the really point effecient razorback builds (Twin-lascannon and Twin-Assault Cannon).

 

Going to be digging deep into this and quite possibly diving back into Deathwatch. Time will tell.

[Moostick]

Been looking at a lot of different rules, the new space marine codex included, and found myself drawn back to Deathwatch. Knowing what I know now and the limitations of other factions the Deathwatch are is a decently good position.

 

I hate to be the bringer of gloom, but I'd rather not have someone get super hyped up just to get their dreams destroyed. Deathwatch are actually in a pretty weak position. We aren't disgustingly terrible and we'll do fine in casual games, but if you play in an environment where people are trying somewhat to win, then you'll be sorely disappointed.

 

Play Deathwatch because you like Deathwatch. If you want to play Deathwatch thinking you'd be winning games often, then maybe look elsewhere. Once our codex drops, this may change, but right now we are definitely not a "high-tier" army. Maybe not even mid-tier.

 

Glass always looks fuller from the outside though. I feel like BA beats us in just about every aspect, but BA players seem to disagree. Looking at the point cuts from C:SM, I am optimistic though!

[Aothaine]

 

 

I hate to be the bringer of gloom, but I'd rather not have someone get super hyped up just to get their dreams destroyed. Deathwatch are actually in a pretty weak position. We aren't disgustingly terrible and we'll do fine in casual games, but if you play in an environment where people are trying somewhat to win, then you'll be sorely disappointed.

 

Play Deathwatch because you like Deathwatch. If you want to play Deathwatch thinking you'd be winning games often, then maybe look elsewhere. Once our codex drops, this may change, but right now we are definitely not a "high-tier" army. Maybe not even mid-tier.

 

Glass always looks fuller from the outside though. I feel like BA beats us in just about every aspect, but BA players seem to disagree. Looking at the point cuts from C:SM, I am optimistic though!

 

 

I know what your warning about, I am just seeing a lot of options that the SM would love that DW can do. The models are a bit more expensive, but DW can employ very similar builds, possibly with better results. I'll do some number grinding tomorrow when I have more time. For now, it is bed time.

[HYBRIDHAWK6]

 

Been looking at a lot of different rules, the new space marine codex included, and found myself drawn back to Deathwatch. Knowing what I know now and the limitations of other factions the Deathwatch are is a decently good position.

 

I hate to be the bringer of gloom, but I'd rather not have someone get super hyped up just to get their dreams destroyed. Deathwatch are actually in a pretty weak position. We aren't disgustingly terrible and we'll do fine in casual games, but if you play in an environment where people are trying somewhat to win, then you'll be sorely disappointed.

 

Play Deathwatch because you like Deathwatch. If you want to play Deathwatch thinking you'd be winning games often, then maybe look elsewhere. Once our codex drops, this may change, but right now we are definitely not a "high-tier" army. Maybe not even mid-tier.

 

Glass always looks fuller from the outside though. I feel like BA beats us in just about every aspect, but BA players seem to disagree. Looking at the point cuts from C:SM, I am optimistic though!

 

 

 

Been looking at a lot of different rules, the new space marine codex included, and found myself drawn back to Deathwatch. Knowing what I know now and the limitations of other factions the Deathwatch are is a decently good position.

 

I hate to be the bringer of gloom, but I'd rather not have someone get super hyped up just to get their dreams destroyed. Deathwatch are actually in a pretty weak position. We aren't disgustingly terrible and we'll do fine in casual games, but if you play in an environment where people are trying somewhat to win, then you'll be sorely disappointed.

 

Play Deathwatch because you like Deathwatch. If you want to play Deathwatch thinking you'd be winning games often, then maybe look elsewhere. Once our codex drops, this may change, but right now we are definitely not a "high-tier" army. Maybe not even mid-tier.

 

Glass always looks fuller from the outside though. I feel like BA beats us in just about every aspect, but BA players seem to disagree. Looking at the point cuts from C:SM, I am optimistic though!

 

I want to echo this to anyone that comes across this forum.

 

However I also want to highlight that if you wallet can take the hit then Forgeworld holds the salvation for Deathwatch.

 

-Leviathan Dreads (is a Relic)

-Tarantula Turrets

-Fire Raptor

-Spartan Tank (is a Relic)

 

These are just some of the really strong units that can help supplement your Deathwatch force.

 

That being said I want to point out that a Deathwatch Force that is optimized will probably still get badly beaten by another optimized faction that is strong in the meta.

 

As previously stated. Play for fun before winning as Deathwatch.

[Matt_149]

I used tarantulas in a game recently. 2 with hb one with ac, a captain and a squad of 5 with stalkers. They sat on an objective point in my deployment zone and provided a good firebase which mauled units that got to close. This forced my opponent to make decisions that won me the game :) having to deal with that and a corvus with a kt armed with 2 fc decimating his heavy weapons teams made him split his forces so I could destroy them piecemeal.

[Aothaine]

I dunno, I just can't see how this army is bad. You're going to have a smaller army. That is for sure. But the same tactics being used by all space marine armies can be used here.

 

Vet Squad (Close Range Focus)

- Frag Cannon

- Chainsword & Boltgun x3

- Sgt with power sword & Boltgun or Combi-melta or Inferno Pistol

 

Razorback 

- Twin Assault Cannon

==============================================

Vet Squad (Fire-Base)

- IHB x2

- Chainsword & Boltgun x3 (Including sgt)

 

Razorback

- Twin Assault Cannon or Twin Lascannon

 

==============================================

 

Inferno Pistol Rant

 

This weapon is really expensive. But it has it's uses. Say you want a 5-man vet squad that is locked up with a bit nasty. If you withdraw you won't be able to fire because you are running msu in razorbacks and did not take the VV with the kill team. Also, if you back up your going to get shot all to hell on the next turn. So, you take the super expensive pistol to shoot at the big nasty that is in melee with you.

 

The flip side, just kill the big nasty before it gets to you. A 5-man vet squad is most likely toast before it will even have a chance to shoot that super expensive pistola. 

 

I think the pistol has it's uses but as Deathwatch are already super expensive it is more important to keep the cost and effectiveness of the squad in check.

 

==================================================

 

From what I can tell so far Deathwatch has a lot of ways to deal with hordes. Even more so with kill times that can be setup to destroy them. They will have problems against dedicated cc units unless they are charging in with a unit of VVs, Terminators or Bikers. Kill Teams are going to have a difficult time against the dedicated cc units though.

 

Watchmasters are boss. I wasn't able to verify if they are one per-army detachment but it is safe to assume that will change with the new codex. 

 

Our special issue ammunition is really amazing and makes the boltguns really damn good. Kraken alone turns the boltguns into the guns the primaris are using, but they also have a round that gives a -2ap. That is insane! And it will be perfect for rapid fire range. 

 

VVs have base 2 attacks. meaning they outclass assault marines in every way and the loadout options are insane! 

 

Terminators - Deathwatch has it made right now in terms of Terminators. They are beefcake units imho.

 

Side Note: I think it is funny that Deathwatch are better at traditional White Scar tactics than the White Scars in the SM Codex are now. 

 

Edit: 

 

Something else that DW can do, which is amazing!, is run the fast attack detachment with three+ Corvus ships in support

 

Captain w/ jumppack

three+ squads of VV decked out like Ralph

 

Just a thought.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Aothaine

[leth]

Think a lot of things will change once we digest the points changes.  Here is a list of all the changes I could find

 

Captain in terminator -17

Librarian in Terminator + 2

Techmarine - 13

 

Centurion Assault - 20

Chapter Champion - 5

Company Champion - 16

Ironclad Dreadnaught - 40

 

Attack Bike - 10

Bike - 6

Inceptor - 15

Land Speeders - 10

Scout Bike - 2

 

Centurion Dev + 15

Hellblaster - 2

Predator - 12

Stalker - 10

Thunderfire + 27

Techmarine Gunner - 10

Vindicator - 25

Whirlwind - 15

 

Drop Pod - 10

Land Speeder Storm - 10

 

Cassius - 40

Emperors Champion - 33

Marneus Calagar - 50

Sgt Chronus - 23

Telion - 14

 

Skyspear Missile Launcher - 30

Special Issue Boltgun - 1

Thunderfire Cannon - 30

Lightning Claws - 1

Power Fist - 8

Thunderhammer - 4 (For Both)

Edited August 3, 2017 by leth

[Moostick]

Just a thought.

Just don't go in expecting amazing results. While we may disagree on the level of our bad we have it, I don't think anyone currently playing Deathwatch will disagree we are one of the weaker armies.

[leth]

Deathwatch have the issues that basically most of the things we want to take are over priced, even more so when you look at the current SM book and how many of their units got a price drop. 

 

On top of that our selection is limited and our special rules poorly written so that our characters dont actually get special ammo.

 

One of the biggest problems is that we pay for our special rule in our base points cost instead of tying it to the weapons we have.  We should just have 2 point bolters and 1 point bolt pistols instead of having to pay basically 3 points over a regular veteran.

 

Only thing that is better for us is our Watchmaster as a source of chapter master re-rolls and that is about it.....

Edited August 3, 2017 by leth

[Moostick]

I agree with everything leth said.

 

And I'm not trying to be a super downer, but I'd hate to see someone spend all the time and money to build a DW army, only to be devastated when they aren't performing according to their assumptions.

 

Play DW because you love them. Like how the Chaos and Ork players got boned for years but fought on.

[TheUbikator]

Play DW because you love them. Like how the Chaos and Ork players got boned for years but fought on.

I concur. After my first two games with DW I reached a conclusion that DW should be taken as a complementary force, not the main one.

 

The models die way too fast outside vehicles and are a little bit overpriced for what they do. 

 

Most of the time I use my Imperial Guard army as the main force and a Kill Team or two in Corvus Blackstar or Razorback. Even vanilla veterans hit hard and that makes them great counter-attack force. I actually think I might buy drop pods in the future because more often than not, my vets are somewhat useless in the game (compared to my Leman Russes, Armoured Sentinels and Infantry Squads in Chimeras) until I need them in very specific place doing very specific things - and when they are on the table from T1 it is sometimes very hard to do - you know with their Corvus Blackstar being shot down 'n stuff.

 

What I'm trying to say, DW is great, but as an allied force - if you don't want to get tabled you need a lot of bodies and staying power.

Edited August 4, 2017 by TheUbikator

[leth]

New Sicaran Arcus is BULL:cuss good for its points.  Take that :cuss in DW ASAP. Luckily I have a turret from a scorpius that I can throw on my sicaran. 

[Prot]

I really think a lot of this comes down to point costs. On paper all the cool toys seem potent, retreating from cc , having multi weapon loadouts, etc, etc. Then you field the army and the cold realization sets in that your far outnumbered, even by other marine armies, and the tipping point is you die just as easily as they do.

 

At least that's my experience. I have a friend who is using his DW as a footslogger force and he takes a Termie in every squad to tank all wounds. Including in cc.... the Termies take all wounds till they fall. It's hardly a classic DW force, but it kind of works.

[N00BST4R]

I'm hoping the Codex makes some adjustment to SIA where it's not an army-wide tax. I don't mind paying a tad more per Vet given the amount of Wargear flexibility they have, but baking it into all Vets regardless of wargear sucks.

[Moostick]

Given how Chaos and SM got such huge reductions in everything, we hopefully won't see any increase in cost.

[leth]

Given how Chaos and SM got such huge reductions in everything, we hopefully won't see any increase in cost.

Nah, its not a matter of if but how much of a reduction we get.  The main thing will be to see how they adjust our rules to incorporate primaris models. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by leth

[N00BST4R]

The main thing will be to see how they adjust our rules to incorporate primaris models.

I just want to see SIA become a per model cost. I have no expectations that DW Primaris will get it; optimistically, maybe Intercessors / Reivers. It would be really awesome if Kill Teams could incorporate Primaris models, but I highly doubt that too.

[Lexicanum]

The Kill Team entry is already so complicated, we might see a separate Primaris Kill Team entry added instead. Veteran Intercessors would be the core unit and it could be similarly improved with extra abilities when adding Gravis models or Inceptors or Reivers.

[N00BST4R]

The Kill Team entry is already so complicated, we might see a separate Primaris Kill Team entry added instead. Veteran Intercessors would be the core unit and it could be similarly improved with extra abilities when adding Gravis models or Inceptors or Reivers.

Good point and this would make more sense. My biggest fear is the cost will be astronomical lol. Hopefully the DW Codex isn't too far off...

[Moostick]

Mixing Veterans with Primaris would be weird since there is literally no transport that can take both, and I doubt they'd give us special treatment on that. The only special exception I can see them giving us is that DPs can take Terms/VV (but that's probably even pushing it).

 

Primaris KTs feel like they'd be too much. Intercessors + Hellblasters + Aggressor in a Repulsor seems way too powerful. If we do get it, I feel like regular DW marines will then take the back burner and essentially be used only as a Devastator team. Bikers would probably still have a place, but Terms/VVs would be pretty terrible options in their current state.