Primarch Updates

[Icarus1138]

We're finally seeing Primarchs showing up, most obviously with Guilliman's return and now with Magnus and Mortarion. Guilliman hasn't changed much from his 30k appearance, which both makes sense (literally frozen in time) and is excellent from a story perspective as it provides lots of contrast and "man out of time" story elements. Magnus has sadly become a cackling evil mastermind, which in my opinion is far less interesting than the torn and conflicted warrior-scholar we see in 30k. Mortarion we're just starting to see but in Dark Imperium he's seemingly gone full Nurgle (never go full Nurgle!), with mention of his existing hatred for warpcraft which is nice and a hint that he has yet to fully devote himself to Chaos.

 

Most of the Primarchs are in a sense a clean slate, since we haven't seen them in 10,000 years. This means it's an opportunity to believably change or update their personalities and motives, with the possible exceptions of Angron (we saw him at Armageddon) and the Lion (he's been sleeping). My question to everyone is, what changes would you find interesting, believable, and would add to the quality of the setting?

 

I would like to see a couple Primarchs re-thinking their loyalties, possibly loyalists and definitely traitors. I can easily imagine Corax returning and wanting nothing to do with the punishing oppression of the modern Imperium, returning to his roots as a freedom fighter. I would *love* to see a traitor Primarch come to the conclusion that Chaos is a terrible master and all they've done is make the universe worse, along with how they attempt to handle that conclusion. I mean honestly, isn't it less believable that not a single traitor Primarch has reached that point? I would have gone with Magnus as the most likely candidate, but the writers went a different direction. Perhaps Omegon appears as a loyal spymaster, but his insistence on the Alpha Legion's ability to function without a central command backfires and they all leave him.

 

Smaller changes would be nice too. We've had hints that Leman Russ was less enthused with Fenrisian culture than he let on: it would be amusing to see him return less willing to hide that. Perhaps the Khan's travels lead him back home notably more feral than he left, or Perturabo believes he's the best choice to become the new Warmaster and seeks to usurp the Black Legion.

 

What do you think would make the setting more interesting and more fun to play within, without any retcons or complete re-writes of a character?

 

[Kais Klip]

Absolutely, I think if any of the many alternating heresies flying about even remotely salivated the loins of anyone at FW/GW, now's the time to do them. Even something flippy floppy; say the Khan needed to undergo a few unholy crusades to gain Khorne's favour and finally break out into real-space. 

 

I do think it would be a waste to merely have 5 different colour Roboute's flying about. BL also has the chance to re-do the political shenanigans of Unremembered Empire and bring us some Primarch drama we actually care about, or at least something a little bit more substantial than "You burned my shanty town!" 

 

Let's see how Corax or whoever reacts to their successor chapters being in bed with Guilliman; lets have inter-chapter civil wars regarding the true heritage of the geneseed; we have many thinblooded bastard chapter of multiple genetic fealties flying about; lets really see where that takes us. Things like the Charcharadon's; will they flock to Corax's side, or see that their mythical liegelord falls short of the mark?

 

We've had the Heresy, we've had 10,000 years of the loyalists being noble and upstanding, now the big personalities are waking up, and everyone knows that things go down when you get 9 big alpha males in the same room all jockeying for power.

 

Give us BadabWar 2.0,, give us some overreactions and hasty trigger fingers, lets give the thirsting gods something to laugh about. 

[NKCougar]

From the top:

 

I. The Lion has been asleep. Barring potential consciousness shenanigans (is the Lion Sword host to his consciousness, and any mortal that picks it up becomes his host?), the Lion has been very firmly loyal - "Loyalty is its own reward" - and that doesn't seem a likely avenue of change.

 

II. [REDACTED]

 

III. The least likely to convert back to the imperium, what with the whole no physical body thing, and his morality compass slain at his own hand. Judging by events of GS, very much firmly set in loyalty.

 

IV. Do we know anything about Perty? Snap judgement is I have no clue because I haven't seen any fluff in his POV, other than like three lines in the UM series.

 

V. The Khan, from the beginning, knew about Chaos. That seems to be a fairly good form of armour against it, as he knows just what the path entails. Just behind the Lion on my least likely to turn list.

 

VI. LEMON RUST :CUSS Leman Russ presents interesting questions. His armor was found in a Khornate shrine. Is he dead or turned? Time is funky in the Eye. He may have been there for a year, ten, hundred, thousand, fifty thousand or more. Of all the primarchs, he had the one of the greatest obsessions with duty. The Alaxxes Nebula did see him vow to become his own man(Superman?). He could very well turn.

 

VII. If the Stone Man is even alive, I doubt he turns, but there are some avenues to cover a turn. To paraphrase, stone doesn't bend - it breaks. The current state of the Imperium could conceivably do this to him, unlikely as it is.

 

VIII. Unequivocally, Horus level dead.

 

IX. I suppose the Sanguinor could be a vehicle for him to return, with some warpy shenanigans, but pls GW don't. Don't ruin his sacrifice. Anyway, if he comes back, he will be as nuttily loyal as his legion.

 

X. Impossible to call. We know he was repeatedly cloned and murdered. Did he somehow effect an escape? Possible, highly improbable. Has he become am avatar of the machine god on Mars? Possible. Has a clone finally turned? Possible, though improbable - he had no ambition other than doing the Emperor's will.

 

XI. [REDACTED]

 

XII. Hated his old man before getting Khorny. No reason for him to return.

 

XIII. My sleeper. What better way to destroy the Imperium than from within? As shown by the Beast, indecisive leadership during times of crisis can destroy the Imperium more effectively than overwhelming force. Fulgrim's actions during GS somewhat put a damper on this theory.

 

XIV. M-M-Morty hates what he has become. Wouldn't be surprised to see him forge his own path if grandaddy nurgle loses focus for a millisecond. Question is, does he return to his father even if that happens? Doubt it, the Emperor has become everything Mortarion hates as well. A renegade primarch Ala Curze without a deathwish could be a very interesting variable in the current setting. (Edit - just read Dark Imperium, don't think he's going anywhere. Scratching him off the surprise list)

 

XV. If the bird-mollusk-insect were to have its focus slip Magnus would absolutely steal his freedom. Of all the traitors, he would be most likely to return to his father's side. His guilt is still there, and the current state of man is almost entirely his fault - the Emperor could have reconquered and finished his project without Magnus' warning. Interesting story potential - rematch of Prospero, but loyalties switched.

 

XVI. Absolutely, irrevocably, mindbogglingly deceased. Then, done in a second time for good measure.

 

XVII. Sleeper candidate for a return. A realisation that he was tested, and failed. Return to his true god. Decide that while the Pantheon are truly gods, his father is as well - and truly wants best for humanity. If that happens, how is he received? Guilliman walks - he remembers Calth. Intriguing potential.

 

XVIII. Entirely possible he lives. Entirely possible he's nuttier than a Planter's factory. Doubt he switches.

 

XIX. Went to the Eye. Similar to Russ, that makes anything possible.

 

XX. Not even guessing. I'll think myself in circles, arrive at my first guess, and start the cycle again. Impossible to know if anything concerning him is truth.

 

I'm dead tired, so there will definitely be mistakes in there, but I think I got the gist across. The story potential for returns and loyalty switching is awesome.

Edited June 9, 2017 by NKCougar

[HeritorA]

Give us BadabWar 2.0,, give us some overreactions and hasty trigger fingers, lets give the thirsting gods something to laugh about.

 

- yes and yes. Seconded :)

[Jimm]

Lorgar will return, he's been studying and learning for 10k years and now Rg is rocking world's again hes bound to want to settle the score. It's a fight 10k years in the making.

I've seen theory's about crawl controlling Rg and the fall of the empire (I think it was on spiky bits) it's a cool theory and would be amazing to see Lorgar learn everything from chaos only to say see ya later and stomp on their plans. Killing Rg in along the that path to save the imperium would be a beautiful dark twist of fate and would mess with loyalties. I could see it splitting the legions, while still loyal to the emp ideals I can't see, UM or Ba following Lorgar.

 

Upon Rg death the lion wakes and forms a coalition with the blood angels know as the angels of death.

[HeritorA]

Lorgar will return, he's been studying and learning for 10k years and now Rg is rocking world's again hes bound to want to settle the score. It's a fight 10k years in the making.

I've seen theory's about crawl controlling Rg and the fall of the empire (I think it was on spiky bits) it's a cool theory and would be amazing to see Lorgar learn everything from chaos only to say see ya later and stomp on their plans. Killing Rg in along the that path to save the imperium would be a beautiful dark twist of fate and would mess with loyalties. I could see it splitting the legions, while still loyal to the emp ideals I can't see, UM or Ba following Lorgar.

 

Upon Rg death the lion wakes and forms a coalition with the blood angels know as the angels of death.

 

If Lorgar is alive at all.

That was discussed in different threads for awhile now. Surprise deaths of Primarchs during the Horus Heresy. And even as A D-B pointed out there are a lot of mystery about Lorgar in W40K (like no one seen him and Erebus and Kor Phaeron could be lying that they saw him) - so from a lot of Primarchs (whose lore is not set in stone) - they easily could kill him at the end of the Heresy.

[NKCougar]

 

 

Lorgar will return, he's been studying and learning for 10k years and now Rg is rocking world's again hes bound to want to settle the score. It's a fight 10k years in the making.

I've seen theory's about crawl controlling Rg and the fall of the empire (I think it was on spiky bits) it's a cool theory and would be amazing to see Lorgar learn everything from chaos only to say see ya later and stomp on their plans. Killing Rg in along the that path to save the imperium would be a beautiful dark twist of fate and would mess with loyalties. I could see it splitting the legions, while still loyal to the emp ideals I can't see, UM or Ba following Lorgar.

 

Upon Rg death the lion wakes and forms a coalition with the blood angels know as the angels of death.

If Lorgar is alive at all.

That was discussed in different threads for awhile now. Surprise deaths of Primarchs during the Horus Heresy. And even as A D-B pointed out there are a lot of mystery about Lorgar in W40K (like no one seen him and Erebus and Kor Phaeron could be lying that they saw him) - so from a lot of Primarchs (whose lore is not set in stone) - they easily could kill him at the end of the Heresy.

Mind linking the discussion? I'm interested in seeing this, since the only dead primarchs as of yet are Alpharius and Ferrus. Ferrus was always going to happen, and since Alpharius has a twin, he was disposable.

 

Sanguinius is most definitely going to die, but I don't see how they could fit any loyalist deaths in apart from those. The traitor primarchs, aside from Horus and Curze, all ascend, and the loyal primarchs all play roles after the Heresy (near civil war over Codex, Iron Cage, Chogoris being raided, two set off into the Eye).

 

The problem is also that we've seen the most disposable loyalist (Corax) in a post-heresy setting in the HH series.

 

I would love to see another kill for each side, but with current lore and even lore from earlier HH books, I don't see it happening.

 

Aside from Lorgar. He has done nothing since the Heresy, so I suppose it wouldn't be too much of an upheaval to see that one go down.

[Kelborn]

Though I'd love to see him return as the chosen of Chaos, his death in the late years of the HH is just too good and fitting to pass it.

 

Lorgar Aurelian, the Prophet, backstabbed by his most trusted mentor Erebus, the Corruptor

 

He had served his purpose. The galaxy is caught in an eternal war. He is no longer of use for them.

[Hrvat]

Abaddon talked to Logar in the centuries/millennia after HH to gain his favour. I think it is in the Black Legion supplement. 

[Typhoid_Tony]

Lorgar is definitely still alive. He's a daemon primarch and its been referenced in many books and in the recent black legion supplement. I struggle to see how any of the daemon primarchs could swap allegiances. You don't sell your soul to the devil and then get to ask for it back. They are slaves to darkness and whilst retain elements of their personalities they don't possess true free will. That is why Abaddon resisted daemonhood for as long as he has.

 

I could totally see Erebus and Kor Phaeron combining to trap him somehow and keep him out of legion affairs. Although I prefer the idea that on ascension he stopped caring about everything that drove him, everything he was changed at that point of ascension. The need to save humanity by uniting with Chaos faded away and instead he has been pulled completely into the Great Game.

We've already had Lorgar's moment of doubt on Istvaan where he looked at the scale of what he caused and almost turned away from it. To go from a character who seen through the 'lie' of the Emperor, had his moment of weakness and come through to be a true believer and then turn it all around and become loyal to Emperor again would completely destroy the character arc that he's been on. I think a renewed war with Guilliman would be another great story moment for 40k.

 

Alpharius (Omegon) is a far more likely candidate, we've seen how fractured and disparate the Alpha Legion are so it's totally plausible there are different elements in 40K that have varying loyalties. The death of Alpharius (Omegon) to Guilliman has always been an unsure thing and as he hasn't ascended so it would work really well.

 

I also think the return of the Lion would be very interesting, him trying to deal with how the Dark Angels have hidden the truth would lead to lots of conflicts with Guilliman that don't have to resort to armed conflict but would be dramatically intriguing.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm still fascinated by Perturabo, personally. He didn't just stop caring, he deliberately chose to remain in seclusion and give up on things. He's not happy with his lot or that of his Legion. He doesn't revel in excess or taking skulls, he doesn't search for knowledge, he's not still grumpy about psykers being a thing. He took vengeance on Dorn and then pretty much left. His Legion is hopelessly lost but even they reject mutations and the likes.

Though I'd love to see him return as the chosen of Chaos, his death in the late years of the HH is just too good and fitting to pass it.

Lorgar Aurelian, the Prophet, backstabbed by his most trusted mentor Erebus, the Corruptor

He had served his purpose. The galaxy is caught in an eternal war. He is no longer of use for them.

 

I'd argue that Kor Phaeron was the real mentor figure, and Lorgar barely trusted either of them. Kor Phaeron most notably would've ended at Calth had he not buggered off. Erebus meanwhile got a kick to the shins as well. Aurelian was perfectly aware of their opportunism and potential for treachery.

[Guest pandion40]

Of all the traitors it's Lorgar I'd like to see changing loyalties. It would be almost impossible to do in my opinion without ruining a lot of the setting as I agree with Typhoid Tony that becoming a daemon is entering the most prefound slavery possible, your personality and free will are permanently curtailed by the transformation. But Primarchs were already partially creatures of the warp before they turned. Even Guilliman acknowledged this side of his nature in Dark Imperium. Maybe this shields their free will a little or maybe a one of a kind event occurs.

 

It would have to be done in a novel in my opinion, not a supplement. The quality is generally better and it will take a lot of build up and time in Logar's head to make it believable. You'd have to get one of their top authors to do it. In my opinion you couldn't do it like Guillimans return, if a supplement came first then the novel you'd have lost half the audience before the novel even came out. Personally I'd make no mention of Lorgar's turn, I'd just put out the novel and then let the first readers start the firestorm online which would then leak into gaming clubs and such, only then would I announce a supplement based on the consequences of his turn not the turn itself.

 

Lastly I wouldn't want Lorgar to go back to what he was, I'd want him to forgive the Emperor for lying and understand why he did, but maintain his disagreement with what the Emperor did. I'd want him to combine elements of the emperors Imperial Truth with what Lorgar has learned about faith into a new belief.

 

That's what I'd like but I think it's almost impossible to do in a way that convinces the majority of the audience and leaves the overwhelming darkness and threat of Chaos intact. Magnus would be easier to turn but has less interesting potential for me personally.

[A D-B]

Abaddon talked to Logar in the centuries/millennia after HH to gain his favour. I think it is in the Black Legion supplement. 

 

The same supplement that had Abaddon embarking on an overtly mythic "Twelve Tasks of Hercules" style quest that intentionally read as dubiously true at best. (And that's not even counting GW saying I could ignore that supplement's events when it came to the Black Legion Series.)

 

In all seriousness, what we "know" about the primarchs has quite literally always been half-myth. We "know" the Lion is asleep in the Rock. Except do we, really? Is that actually true? We "know" the Khan went to X, and that Corax left to do Y, and Russ did A, and so on. But almost every primarch's fate was left intentionally mythical with no definitive answer, pretty much like how King Arthur is supposed to return to Britain at its hour of need (where were you in WWII, chief?).

 

And one of the few whose fate we did know for sure? Well, he was resurrected by an alien god and now leads the Imperium, so I'm not going to be stunned if any other changes come along, especially to the primarchs who had plainly legendary fates and no real information.

[Rob P]

I saw a screenshot on twitter about a month ago of what looked like a leaked caption from one of the new books. I'm not in any way suggesting it is real, but I would love to find it again. It suggested that Magnus had turned from Tzeentch and Tzeentch has his eye on Corax.

 

To me, what we know of Corax, that doesn't quite ring true, but would be interested to find out the origin of the caption.

 

-------------

 

Also, I think there is a lot of rumours going around from the fact that certain things evolve into 'fact' over time (e.g. you can read into the Dark Apostle books an inference that Magnus is dead or, at least, not in control) and sometimes authors can slip something which might be their interpretation rather than where things are going (e.g. i'm sure Gav Thorpe mentioned The Lion being dead in a blog post or something in the last 12 months or so, but this - assuming my memory isn't completey off - is simply one fleeting intepretation).

[Typhoid_Tony]

 

Abaddon talked to Logar in the centuries/millennia after HH to gain his favour. I think it is in the Black Legion supplement. 

 

The same supplement that had Abaddon embarking on an overtly mythic "Twelve Tasks of Hercules" style quest that intentionally read as dubiously true at best. (And that's not even counting GW saying I could ignore that supplement's events when it came to the Black Legion Series.)

 

In all seriousness, what we "know" about the primarchs has quite literally always been half-myth. We "know" the Lion is asleep in the Rock. Except do we, really? Is that actually true? We "know" the Khan went to X, and that Corax left to do Y, and Russ did A, and so on. But almost every primarch's fate was left intentionally mythical with no definitive answer, pretty much like how King Arthur is supposed to return to Britain at its hour of need (where were you in WWII, chief?).

 

And one of the few whose fate we did know for sure? Well, he was resurrected by an alien god and now leads the Imperium, so I'm not going to be stunned if any other changes come along, especially to the primarchs who had plainly legendary fates and no real information.

 

 

I quite liked the mythical style that a lot of the Chaos codices have been written as it allows for that dubious interpretation. It's a shame you aren't going to touch on those events as I would have loved to see what Lorgar has become for example but Talon of Horus was great so I'm sure Black Legion will be too! I agree on the uncertain nature of the fate of most of the Primarchs and would like it to remain that way if they aren't going to be brought back but I do feel it's different for the Lion. Most codices seem written from an in-universe perspective, however remote. The information on the Lion is still in the current codex and says that no-one knows he is in the deepest chamber of the rock, his wounds long healed. 

 

It does sound very Arthurian but at the same time told from an external authors perspective so if he doesn't return then that's fine (although the model would be cool!) but I would struggle to see how this could be written out of the background in an in-universe perspective (other than blowing up the Rock!).

[Loesh]

 

Abaddon talked to Logar in the centuries/millennia after HH to gain his favour. I think it is in the Black Legion supplement. 

 

The same supplement that had Abaddon embarking on an overtly mythic "Twelve Tasks of Hercules" style quest that intentionally read as dubiously true at best. (And that's not even counting GW saying I could ignore that supplement's events when it came to the Black Legion Series.)

 

In all seriousness, what we "know" about the primarchs has quite literally always been half-myth. We "know" the Lion is asleep in the Rock. Except do we, really? Is that actually true? We "know" the Khan went to X, and that Corax left to do Y, and Russ did A, and so on. But almost every primarch's fate was left intentionally mythical with no definitive answer, pretty much like how King Arthur is supposed to return to Britain at its hour of need (where were you in WWII, chief?).

 

And one of the few whose fate we did know for sure? Well, he was resurrected by an alien god and now leads the Imperium, so I'm not going to be stunned if any other changes come along, especially to the primarchs who had plainly legendary fates and no real information.

 

Pretty much my thought exactly, pilgrims looking over a Roboute and seeing the wound heal could just be seeing what they want to see and he could of been dead thrice over, it puts pretty much all of the mythos into even more question.

 

Even how the wound got there was pretty much completely different. Remember how it was a 'mutual kill' that resulted in the Ultramarines heroically driving off the Third Legion? Those first three chapters of Dark Imperium are, admittedly, completely fan candy for me. I remember that bit being written in a similarly mythical in universe style as well before being disproven. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Loesh

[Hrvat]

 

Abaddon talked to Logar in the centuries/millennia after HH to gain his favour. I think it is in the Black Legion supplement. 

 

The same supplement that had Abaddon embarking on an overtly mythic "Twelve Tasks of Hercules" style quest that intentionally read as dubiously true at best. (And that's not even counting GW saying I could ignore that supplement's events when it came to the Black Legion Series.)

 

In all seriousness, what we "know" about the primarchs has quite literally always been half-myth. We "know" the Lion is asleep in the Rock. Except do we, really? Is that actually true? We "know" the Khan went to X, and that Corax left to do Y, and Russ did A, and so on. But almost every primarch's fate was left intentionally mythical with no definitive answer, pretty much like how King Arthur is supposed to return to Britain at its hour of need (where were you in WWII, chief?).

 

And one of the few whose fate we did know for sure? Well, he was resurrected by an alien god and now leads the Imperium, so I'm not going to be stunned if any other changes come along, especially to the primarchs who had plainly legendary fates and no real information.

 

 

I thought it was just an homage. This do we know something or not mythical approach I do like but not when the story is written in God PoV. Third person reports are much better in my opinion for transfer of that kind of information to the wider public. If all material in the setting is to be treated as coming from an unreliable narrator it should be noted somewhere. That would help with a lot of debates :)

[Loesh]

I always assumed everything in the setting was unreliable because it either A. Was the product of myth/legend/propaganda or B. Was from the perspective of someone who may be biased in the setting.

[b1soul]

In what source was Thessala described as a "mutual kill"?

 

I always thought it was Bobby getting thrashed?

[Loesh]

In what source was Thessala described as a "mutual kill"?

 

I always thought it was Bobby getting thrashed?

 

Can't recall, it's ancient fluff but 1d4chan had it in their old article for as immensely unreliable as that is, and it's hardly the first time i'v heard it, even before the Dark Imperium stuff there were talks about it getting vindicated as what had actually happened. Considering I still get accosted by people for saying that we don't know about the Emperor's Shaman Lost and the Damned theory it could be from Rogue Trader for all I know.

[Typhoid_Tony]

I always assumed everything in the setting was unreliable because it either A. Was the product of myth/legend/propaganda or B. Was from the perspective of someone who may be biased in the setting.

 

That's my issue with the story of the Lion. No-one knows he's there so it cannot be A or B.

[Loesh]

 

I always assumed everything in the setting was unreliable because it either A. Was the product of myth/legend/propaganda or B. Was from the perspective of someone who may be biased in the setting.

 

That's my issue with the story of the Lion. No-one knows he's there so it cannot be A or B.

 

 

I mean, whose to say some schmucks in the Dark Angels didn't get it in their head the Lions under the Rock despite a lack of proof?

[cheywood]

Or that other chapters don't have idle theories to explain the Dark Angels' seemingly mercurial nature.

[Typhoid_Tony]

 

 

I always assumed everything in the setting was unreliable because it either A. Was the product of myth/legend/propaganda or B. Was from the perspective of someone who may be biased in the setting.

 

That's my issue with the story of the Lion. No-one knows he's there so it cannot be A or B.

 

 

I mean, whose to say some schmucks in the Dark Angels didn't get it in their head the Lions under the Rock despite a lack of proof?

 

Because it specifically says that they do not know. The highest ranking members of the Dark Angels remain ignorant of their stronghold's greatest revelation.

 

I suppose the only possibility is the Watchers in the Dark as they are the only ones who can get into the chamber but they don't exactly make it a habit of talking to people and certainly not of telling people about the Lion.

[Loesh]

Does that contradict them not knowing if some derp thinks he's under the Rock?

 

"Hey guys, I think I know where Russ is, like he vanished into the warp looking for this 'Tree of Life' thing in old Fenrisian Myth. So, like, for some reason he thinks it's in the Eye of Terror, cause, I mean, it's the only place it could be we haven't explored right? and, like, in there he probably mutated into a werewolf or a kitsune thingy and now he won't come out cause the Imperium wouldn't accept how Kawaii he is."

Edited June 18, 2017 by Loesh