Primarch Updates

[Typhoid_Tony]

Does that contradict them not knowing if some derp thinks he's under the Rock?

 

"Hey guys, I think I know where Russ is, like he vanished into the warp looking for this 'Tree of Life' thing in old Fenrisian Myth. So, like, for some reason he thinks it's in the Eye of Terror, cause, I mean, it's the only place it could be we haven't explored right? and, like, in there he probably mutated into a werewolf or a kitsune thingy and now he won't come out cause the Imperium wouldn't accept how Kawaii he is."

That isn't the way it's written. If they wanted to introduce ambiguity then it could have been written along the lines of Russ's journey with foretellings of a day when he would return to lead the Dark Angels to victory and even mention that members of the chapter hope and pray for that day and leave it suitably vague, just as with the Khan, or Corax, or Vulkan but its written from a god-like perspective informing the reader of something that no-one in the universe is aware of.

[Loesh]

 

Does that contradict them not knowing if some derp thinks he's under the Rock?

 

"Hey guys, I think I know where Russ is, like he vanished into the warp looking for this 'Tree of Life' thing in old Fenrisian Myth. So, like, for some reason he thinks it's in the Eye of Terror, cause, I mean, it's the only place it could be we haven't explored right? and, like, in there he probably mutated into a werewolf or a kitsune thingy and now he won't come out cause the Imperium wouldn't accept how Kawaii he is."

That isn't the way it's written. If they wanted to introduce ambiguity then it could have been written along the lines of Russ's journey with foretellings of a day when he would return to lead the Dark Angels to victory and even mention that members of the chapter hope and pray for that day and leave it suitably vague, just as with the Khan, or Corax, or Vulkan but its written from a god-like perspective informing the reader of something that no-one in the universe is aware of.

 

 

Is it? plenty of things are written with 'god like' perspectives including Abaddons myth of how he got the Marks of Chaos, we have things that point to it like Pandorax but we hardly know it played out that way, all we know is the books telling us X with no backing when it could actually be Y.

[Typhoid_Tony]

 

 

Does that contradict them not knowing if some derp thinks he's under the Rock?

 

"Hey guys, I think I know where Russ is, like he vanished into the warp looking for this 'Tree of Life' thing in old Fenrisian Myth. So, like, for some reason he thinks it's in the Eye of Terror, cause, I mean, it's the only place it could be we haven't explored right? and, like, in there he probably mutated into a werewolf or a kitsune thingy and now he won't come out cause the Imperium wouldn't accept how Kawaii he is."

That isn't the way it's written. If they wanted to introduce ambiguity then it could have been written along the lines of Russ's journey with foretellings of a day when he would return to lead the Dark Angels to victory and even mention that members of the chapter hope and pray for that day and leave it suitably vague, just as with the Khan, or Corax, or Vulkan but its written from a god-like perspective informing the reader of something that no-one in the universe is aware of.

 

 

Is it? plenty of things are written with 'god like' perspectives including Abaddons myth of how he got the Marks of Chaos, we have things that point to it like Pandorax but we hardly know it played out that way, all we know is the books telling us X with no backing when it could actually be Y.

 

There are plenty of in-universe characters who could have witnessed Abaddons actions and led to the mythical nature of his tale. In this case it is referencing an event which there are no witnesses. Again I would much prefer it if this was written to be more mythical in nature with half heard stories or tales of the primarchs return but to me this stands out from all of the tales of the Primarchs as being one that doesn't leave much room for other interpretations if no-else is aware of it.

[Hrvat]

Writing from a god perspective while not being god perspective is what is confusing. 

 

If the background portion of the rulebook was for example an extract from an encyclopedia like document like say WHFB 6th rulebook background then you get the notion what you are reading can be true but doesn't have to. Same goes for the various codici. If they were done from the perspective of the faction with certain elements from outside you would know where you stand.

 

Currently the background texts very rarely indicate they come from an unreliable narrator and at least to me it breaks the suspension of disbelief.  

[Typhoid_Tony]

Writing from a god perspective while not being god perspective is what is confusing. 

 

If the background portion of the rulebook was for example an extract from an encyclopedia like document like say WHFB 6th rulebook background then you get the notion what you are reading can be true but doesn't have to. Same goes for the various codici. If they were done from the perspective of the faction with certain elements from outside you would know where you stand.

 

Currently the background texts very rarely indicate they come from an unreliable narrator and at least to me it breaks the suspension of disbelief.  

 

Completely agree. I love having a background story in my head that I come up with for the army I'm collecting but it does make it difficult to base that on some of the current codci when you are uncertain as to whether or not you have the flexibility of an unreliable narrator. I think the use of the unreliable narrator more explicitly would really benefit the setting.

[NKCougar]

There's a story in the Horus Heresy era that I really want to see about Lorgar, looking at my above list. He was the primarch to take the Pilgrimage and start the seeds of corruption at great personal cost.

 

His turning was so important that:

 

1. The human representative of Chaos was able to ascend to Daemonhood - become a Daemon Prince - by "staining Lorgar's soul" - getting him to sacrifice three Chapter Masters, and making the first death of the war the Emperor's own blood in Vendatha.

 

2. It was the weakest point in Chaos' entire plan. Lorgar refuses and orders Argel Tal and Xaphen to destroy Ingethel Ascended and that's it. Chaos loses, Emperor saves humanity.

 

3. He made unbelievable sacrifices and took a massive leap of faith in switching loyalties.

 

4. Had a hand in or was responsible for turning every primarch except Fulgrim and possibly Curze.

 

So in his resume for Princehood, he has:

 

1. Started the Heresy.

 

2. Corrupted every traitor primarch and legion except two.

 

3. Was personally responsible for either committing or ordering massive atrocities.

 

4. Sacrifice: where to start? Lorgar sacrificed friends, brothers, sons, his only chance to kill Guilliman, and his own humanity, all in the name of faith.

 

So I hope we get a chance to see the story of his ascension. This is vindication on the very highest level - in exchange for his unswerving devotion, Lorgar essentially becomes a god of his own, immortal and all-powerful.

 

From what I understand, he didn't ascend until after the Heresy, so we wouldn't see it covered in a book any time soon. I just think this is one of the must-write story arcs.

[Knight of the Raven]

I saw a screenshot on twitter about a month ago of what looked like a leaked caption from one of the new books. I'm not in any way suggesting it is real, but I would love to find it again. It suggested that Magnus had turned from Tzeentch and Tzeentch has his eye on Corax.

To me, what we know of Corax, that doesn't quite ring true, but would be interested to find out the origin of the caption.

It's possible this is coming from Aurelius Rex's Dornian Heresy, since in this alternate continuity Magnus rejects Tzeentch and as such its feathered majesty decided to go after Corax.

More specifically, from the Legio imprint's rendition of his Thousand Sons Index Astartes:

Was it something along those lines?

and, like, in there he probably mutated into a werewolf or a kitsune thingy and now he won't come out cause the Imperium wouldn't accept how Kawaii he is."

I think I ground two molars to dust upon picturing this in my mind.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Knight of the Raven

[Bulwyf]

I am hoping we get all the Primarchs back including, or even especially, the dead ones.

[Loesh]

Please no.

 

The thought process for some legions just completely collapses if their Primarch comes back.

[Bulwyf]

Please no.

 

The thought process for some legions just completely collapses if their Primarch comes back.

 

I disagree. Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Night Lords would not be ruined by their primarchs returning. If Sangy comes back the BA still suffer from Red Thirst. IH and NL don't have any adverse conditions from their primarchs being dead for 10k years so their return would only add more flavor and story options.

[Loesh]

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Curze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Loesh

[Bulwyf]

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Kurze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

 

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions. 

 

The Primarchs returning changes none of that. They still died. How they come back and how it affected their legions is what would make it interesting. The BA, IH and NL would still be 10k years dealing with those deaths so how they would deal with the return would enhance the fluff, not destroy it.

 

You are of course free to disagree with this. No one is saying to negate the long standing fluff of those legions but bringing back their missing fathers after so many millennia would only enrich it.

[Loesh]

 

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Kurze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

 

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions. 

 

The Primarchs returning changes none of that. They still died. How they come back and how it affected their legions is what would make it interesting. The BA, IH and NL would still be 10k years dealing with those deaths so how they would deal with the return would enhance the fluff, not destroy it.

 

You are of course free to disagree with this. No one is saying to negate the long standing fluff of those legions but bringing back their missing fathers after so many millennia would only enrich it.

 

 

Ferrus Manus returning eliminates the guilt of his death, the lesson of his death becomes the cheaper for it, and it takes much of the bite out of their rivalry with the Third. Curze's motivations become convoluted at best because he doesn't want to live anymore and he wanted to make a point to the Imperium, so not only does it dampen the revenge motivation of the Night Lords but it actually makes the Primarch himself make no sense, Sangys sacrifice isn't much of a sacrifice if he didn't actually die and the suffering of the Black Rage as well as the interesting of it's symptoms pretty much go away if Sanguinus never actually died to begin with and thus they aren't having the extremely badass hallucination of reliving his last stand with a fragment of his power, or worse it could mean the Black Rage just stops which removes dimensions from multiple Blood Angel chapters like the Flesh Tearers and Angels Encarmine entirely. I don't think it enriches the fluff so much as it renders it barren and in some cases idiotic. 

 

I really, REALLY, don't want 40k to start suffering Comic Book syndrome where deaths mean literally nothing and at any time Sevatar could pop out of the void to lead the Night Lords and Sigismund the Fists.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Loesh

[NKCougar]

 

 

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Kurze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

 

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions.

The Primarchs returning changes none of that. They still died. How they come back and how it affected their legions is what would make it interesting. The BA, IH and NL would still be 10k years dealing with those deaths so how they would deal with the return would enhance the fluff, not destroy it.

 

You are of course free to disagree with this. No one is saying to negate the long standing fluff of those legions but bringing back their missing fathers after so many millennia would only enrich it.

The death of a character completely loses any impact it would have if they come back from it. Heck, it cheapens pretty much any death in the series if characters who were undeniably and unquestionably dead get deus ex machina'd back into existence - because what's stopping it from happening to any character in the series/setting?

[Loesh]

I mean, could you imagine if Horus came back? the Black Legions entire motivation sinks into the ocean.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Kurze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

 

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions. 

 

The Primarchs returning changes none of that. They still died. How they come back and how it affected their legions is what would make it interesting. The BA, IH and NL would still be 10k years dealing with those deaths so how they would deal with the return would enhance the fluff, not destroy it.

 

You are of course free to disagree with this. No one is saying to negate the long standing fluff of those legions but bringing back their missing fathers after so many millennia would only enrich it.

 

 

Ferrus Manus returning eliminates the guilt of his death, the lesson of his death becomes the cheaper for it, and it takes much of the bite out of their rivalry with the Third. Curze's motivations become convoluted at best because he doesn't want to live anymore and he wanted to make a point to the Imperium, so not only does it dampen the revenge motivation of the Night Lords but it actually makes the Primarch himself make no sense, Sangys sacrifice isn't much of a sacrifice if he didn't actually die and the suffering of the Black Rage as well as the interesting of it's symptoms pretty much go away if Sanguinus never actually died to begin with and thus they aren't having the extremely badass hallucination of reliving his last stand with a fragment of his power, or worse it could mean the Black Rage just stops which removes dimensions from multiple Blood Angel chapters like the Flesh Tearers and Angels Encarmine entirely. I don't think it enriches the fluff so much as it renders it barren and in some cases idiotic. 

 

I really, REALLY, don't want 40k to start suffering Comic Book syndrome where deaths mean literally nothing and at any time Sevatar could pop out of the void to lead the Night Lords and Sigismund the Fists.

 

Konrad couldn't have changed his mind after being dead for 10k years? How many suicidal people would want a do over after they let themselves die? He could come back a completely changed character. How would the NL react to this? Would he want to continue to fight against an Imperium that actually embraced his ideals of how to keep people in line through fear?

 

What guilt does FM or the IH have? He comes back and what changes for them? They still had to deal with his death for 10k years just like the rest of the other legions we're taking about.

 

Sangy coming back doesn't mean the Black Rage or Thirst have to go away. Depending on how he comes back the BR would still be there since he DID die. His return could either cleanse them of at least the Rage (the Thirst would still be there) or perhaps make it worse. Or have a completely different effect entirely.

 

None of those things change the 10k history before it. It does not negate what happened then or how the legions dealt with it. I get that you don't want characters returning like comic books but GW already broke one rule by bringing back RG. The only Primarch we know of that was so thoroughly immolated that he can't come back is Horus...except we know there's clones of him. Whose to Bile hasn't been working on cloned Primarchs and out pops Horus 2.0 or Konrad 2.0? 

 

It seems GW wants to move the fluff forward. HH has shown how popular the primarchs are. Why not introduce them back into 40k?

[Kelborn]

 

 

I think that would completely ruin the Night Lords, their Primarchs death and the meaning of it is one of the central theme of their Legion, Konrad Kurze died via suicide by cop as an example, he no longer wanted to live and he wanted to make an example of his death, the Blood Angels struggle with Sanguinus's sacrifice as well as the Black Rage and Red Thirst...especially when coupled with the former reliving his death...makes them interesting and the Iron Hands Primarch death has been the genesis of their flaws and strengths for the last ten thousand years, that's nevermind the fact it just cheapens the death of all three in general.

 

Imo, it would destroy the fluff of those legions. 

 

The Primarchs returning changes none of that. They still died. How they come back and how it affected their legions is what would make it interesting. The BA, IH and NL would still be 10k years dealing with those deaths so how they would deal with the return would enhance the fluff, not destroy it.

 

You are of course free to disagree with this. No one is saying to negate the long standing fluff of those legions but bringing back their missing fathers after so many millennia would only enrich it.

 

 

Ferrus Manus returning eliminates the guilt of his death, the lesson of his death becomes the cheaper for it, and it takes much of the bite out of their rivalry with the Third. Curze's motivations become convoluted at best because he doesn't want to live anymore and he wanted to make a point to the Imperium, so not only does it dampen the revenge motivation of the Night Lords but it actually makes the Primarch himself make no sense, Sangys sacrifice isn't much of a sacrifice if he didn't actually die and the suffering of the Black Rage as well as the interesting of it's symptoms pretty much go away if Sanguinus never actually died to begin with and thus they aren't having the extremely badass hallucination of reliving his last stand with a fragment of his power, or worse it could mean the Black Rage just stops which removes dimensions from multiple Blood Angel chapters like the Flesh Tearers and Angels Encarmine entirely. I don't think it enriches the fluff so much as it renders it barren and in some cases idiotic. 

 

I really, REALLY, don't want 40k to start suffering Comic Book syndrome where deaths mean literally nothing and at any time Sevatar could pop out of the void to lead the Night Lords and Sigismund the Fists.

 

 

THIS and nothing else, imho!

 

Besides, aren't souls of the dead consumed by the dark pantheon?

 

If the dead ones return, it just screws up everything for most of the community. Sure, some would celebrate this at first but fluff wise, it would make everything happened in the last 10K years obsolete.

 

"Forget the last 10 millenia, all Primarchs are back! Let us have a HH 2.0 plus Xenos!"

 

You can say what you want. If you'd enjoy this scenario, go for it. But my reaction will allways be:

 

[Loesh]

 

Konrad couldn't have changed his mind after being dead for 10k years? How many suicidal people would want a do over after they let themselves die? He could come back a completely changed character. How would the NL react to this? Would he want to continue to fight against an Imperium that actually embraced his ideals of how to keep people in line through fear?

 

 

What guilt does FM or the IH have? He comes back and what changes for them? They still had to deal with his death for 10k years just like the rest of the other legions we're taking about.

 

Sangy coming back doesn't mean the Black Rage or Thirst have to go away. Depending on how he comes back the BR would still be there since he DID die. His return could either cleanse them of at least the Rage (the Thirst would still be there) or perhaps make it worse. Or have a completely different effect entirely.

 

None of those things change the 10k history before it. It does not negate what happened then or how the legions dealt with it. I get that you don't want characters returning like comic books but GW already broke one rule by bringing back RG. The only Primarch we know of that was so thoroughly immolated that he can't come back is Horus...except we know there's clones of him. Whose to Bile hasn't been working on cloned Primarchs and out pops Horus 2.0 or Konrad 2.0? 

 

It seems GW wants to move the fluff forward. HH has shown how popular the primarchs are. Why not introduce them back into 40k?

 

 

If he comes back as a completely changed character then I see little point in calling him Konrad Curze, it pretty much obliterates how much bite and poignancy his death had if he doesn't actually die if it happened 'For real' for ten thousand years or not.

 

Ferrus Manus no longer being dead pretty much removes any of the potency behind his deaths impact on the Iron Hands, their struggle with emotions and their Primarchs failure to defeat Fulgrim as well as their dealing with the Horus Heresys after effects is only dampened if not removed by his return.

 

Again if it changes completely why call it the Red Thirst or Black Rage? Though weirder still would be if the Black Rage remained the same and they still had visions of his 'death' when he's back, then it'd be more upset with his psuedo death and it'd be more like a black temper tantrum really.

 

Also Roboute has, imo, for all intents and purposes never been dead, him coming back has always been a possibility on the table. Horus's clones coming back would also make little sense, Fabius created them in an effort to reunite the Third, a last ditch gamble to tilt over the Legion Wars which ultimately failed, why rehash that failure?

 

So as I said before, it seems to just take away from the setting to me.

[HeritorA]

Please no.

 

The thought process for some legions just completely collapses if their Primarch comes back.

Feel the same. If they start resurrecting the Primarchs right and left half of the Horus Heresy 'drama' are going down the toilet.

Curze, Manus, Sanguinius should stay dead.

[Rob P]

I saw a screenshot on twitter about a month ago of what looked like a leaked caption from one of the new books. I'm not in any way suggesting it is real, but I would love to find it again. It suggested that Magnus had turned from Tzeentch and Tzeentch has his eye on Corax.

To me, what we know of Corax, that doesn't quite ring true, but would be interested to find out the origin of the caption.

It's possible this is coming from Aurelius Rex's Dornian Heresy, since in this alternate continuity Magnus rejects Tzeentch and as such its feathered majesty decided to go after Corax.

More specifically, from the Legio imprint's rendition of his Thousand Sons Index Astartes:

Was it something along those lines?

It was exactly that. Cheers

[veterannoob]

 

Please no.

 

The thought process for some legions just completely collapses if their Primarch comes back.

Feel the same. If they start resurrecting the Primarchs right and left half of the Horus Heresy 'drama' are going down the toilet.

Curze, Manus, Sanguinius should stay dead.

 

yeah, I gotta agree those 3 are dead dead. Though, I really don't think Sanguinius himself will return as a singular character (model). If anything, maybe like Russ in WoM as the Star Warsesque vision through The Force, or something like that. :) 

[Midgard]

Personally, I am of two minds regarding the return of the primarchs. I have enjoyed the development of the timeline, and have purchased both Guilliman (now fully painted and ready to lead my small but growing Ultramarines army on tabletop) and Magnus (current painting project). If more primarchs are released, I am almost certain to buy the miniatures, and they may inspire me to start further small armies.

 

At the same time, from the storytelling perspective I preferred the primarchs staying dead or missing.

 

They presented a great untold mystery of the setting, a way to conceptualize it going forward without ever having a definite resolution. Even the dead ones had a degree of ambiguity (with a couple of exceptions) to create a semi-plausible scenario where they might have somehow survived. It was always a fun thought exercise to project the timeline forward and to imagine the return of the primarchs as a way to drive some of the setting's ongoing conflicts to their logical resolutions, without committing to a specific storyline which may or may not occur.

 

While Magnus' and Guilliman's returns might have compromised that concept, at their core they did not invalidate the setting. All of the Daemon primarchs have always been fair game to return in 40K, without sacrificing any of the background, and Guilliman was probably the only loyalist primarch who could return without severe damage to the storyline - and yes, I am writing this with the 8th edition fluff changes in mind, since even after the introduction of the Primaris and the Indomitus Crusade, the character of the Imperium did not seem to drastically change, and the core storylines associated with many Imperial factions remained the same.

 

Consider this: the Fenryka still maintain their quasi-feral nature. The Blood Angels are still defined by their dual genetic curses. The Dark Angels are still secretive and less than straightforward in their loyalties. The Imperial Guard is still based on human wave tactics with the same equipment as they had for the last ten thousand years. Cawl's faction in the Mechanicus, while ascendant, is not in charge of Mars, while Mars continues on as before. And so on and on. Guilliman's return did not change any of those factions, and if anything, only created additional potential for conflict (and a good reason why, say, my Dark Angels and my Ultramarines may find themselves on the opposite sides of the tabletop). Discounting the usual suspects (Russ, Corax, Khan, Vulkan, all of whom would be essentially powerful general/hero characters, but otherwise incapable of taking overall lead and living to the expectations of what a primarch is supposed to be in the setting - cue Vulkan not doing all that well as a war leader in the Beast series), we are left with Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and the Lion.

 

There were plenty of arguments why Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus should stay dead, and I am generally in agreement there. Dorn, while not impossible to bring back, was at some point thought to be dead, and would probably be similar to Guilliman in terms of overall impact, with the additional complication of trying to explain where he has been all these years, and why he had not returned. The Lion's return is problematic not just because of the same reasons as Russ/Corax/Khan/Vulkan, but also because it would have to be handled very delicately - one of the Dark Angels' defining characteristics is their ambiguous loyalty/morality, and the Lion's return may provide too many answers to keep the mystery alive, thus damaging the faction's overall appeal.

 

Back to Chaos. There is little reason why Angron/Fulgrim/Magnus/Mortarion could not return (and in case of the latter two, they have returned); on the same account, Perturabo has been at least somewhat active over the years accordingly to the background, and at least has some semblance of control over his Legion. Lorgar is an enigma wrapped in mystery, and my interpretation of the background has been that he has more knowledge on the nature of Chaos than all other fallen primarchs, meaning that if Lorgar were to become involved, it would be during whatever endgame the setting is entering. Either that, or Lorgar has been dead for a very long time, and Kor Phaeron/Erebus duo pretended to run Legion affairs in his name. Alpharius (or Omegon)... the less we know, the better, for the same reasons as the Lion - a mystery is best served by not revealing all of its aspects. Kurze and Horus are dead, and should stay dead, for the same reasons as Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius.

 

Now, how to bring them back without altering the continuity beyond repair...

 

Naturally, cloning is one possible method, quite possibly producing clones who are very close to the original and may even BELIEVE themselves to BE the original, but otherwise flawed/somehow corrupted. This might be one of the only ways for GW to bring back characters known/suspected to be dead... or perhaps even the characters who are not confirmed as dead. Imagine what would happen if the original survives and meets the clone... that is a traumatic enough event to send one (or both) over the edge and to make them consider switching allegiances. If anything, it might be a way for GW to have 40K-era miniatures of the classic primarch characters, while maintaining plausible deniability and ambiguity about the whole thing.

 

Beyond cloning, we are talking miracles, and while there are probably entities in the 40K-verse that can accomplish something like that, we are veering dangerously close to the comic book level of plausibility (as much as plausibility counts in this setting). Yes, perhaps the Emperor can resurrect Sanguinius, or the Chaos gods can bring back Kurze or Horus, but at that point death is no longer permanent, and we are descending towards the level of self-parody. I suspect that if this were to happen, we would end up seeing an equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon featuring our favorite characters, which would ultimately damage what makes the setting unique.

 

That said, cloning, if done correctly, can be a good solution to have all these primarchs (?) in 40K, without altering the fundamental nature of the setting... and a way to have a few of the clones potentially switch sides (though personally, I would not want to see it... let the sleeping primarchs lie).

[HeritorA]

 

 

Please no.

 

The thought process for some legions just completely collapses if their Primarch comes back.

Feel the same. If they start resurrecting the Primarchs right and left half of the Horus Heresy 'drama' are going down the toilet.

Curze, Manus, Sanguinius should stay dead.

 

yeah, I gotta agree those 3 are dead dead. Though, I really don't think Sanguinius himself will return as a singular character (model). If anything, maybe like Russ in WoM as the Star Warsesque vision through The Force, or something like that.

 

Even that will cringe a lot of fans and simply remove them from the beloved setting.

 

Midgard

Lion is a must have release - cause he could balance Guilliman approach to the Galaxy.

Good points. I can say that they could easily release Russ and Khan - cause they are kicking in the Warp and could get a new light.

Vulkan - we all know he is kicking and alive (cause Perpetual for life, eternal guardian yada yada).

 

Sangy/Manus should stay dead. Rogal Dorn is probably better dead than getting back.

Corax on the other hand should never return. He left as an emo struggling with himself and I do not think that will improve his behavior in W41K

[Knight of the Raven]

I'm pretty sure Corax wanted to die for atone for his actions and I don't see him not throwing himself at a much more powerful daemon primarch the instant he learns where one resides, so he's dead as a doornail as far as I'm concerned.

 

I agree that bringing back the dead would bring Warhammer 40,000 too close to the superhero medium, and not in a good way. I already wasn't particularly pleased by the villain's resurrection in the 2000's Teen Titans cartoon (no matter how cool this guy was) or a certain character coming back to life in Mass Effect, but even in these cases, the former took the daemon in charge of hell wishing him to be around again to come back and the latter required cutting-edge science, cybernetic reconstruction since most of the body could be accurately described as 'some small bits of meat stuck to pipes,' two years and several billions credits.

 

So yeah, however egregious those were, they were still better than the dead guy showing up at his own funeral like nothing happened and the unsurprised audience agrees. And I'm not sure I can trust Games Workshop to write the dead primarchs' comeback with as much 'sense' as the examples I gave.

[Midgard]

HeritorA: I would be interested to see how GW manages to bring back the Lion. All the fluff to bring him back is essentially there, and I can see the Lion actually getting into the proverbial bed with some of the more traditionalist, reactionary factions within the Imperium (and considering his... difficulties playing political games, there is much potential for interesting times there). It is a fair point about him being a counterweight to Guilliman, not just because of their common history, but because of which factions would coalesce around them (or would seek to prop each primarch to guide the direction of the Imperium).

 

My key issue with the Lion's return is what it will do to the core of the Dark Angels faction. It is doable, but will take very good writing to keep the mystery of the Dark Angels' allegiance alive even with the Lion himself being around... so whatever happens, his return CANNOT, and should not reconcile the Dark Angels and the Fallen - if anything, it should intensify the rivalry, or at the very least create additional ambiguity that creates more questions than answers. If GW can do it without definitively resolving the question of Dark Angels allegiance (personally, I think their allegiance is to themselves first, to the Imperium second - I do not consider them traitors, but they have many conflicts of interest which may occasionally push them over the line), then they should... but if GW cannot do the topic proper justice, then it is better for the Lion to stay missing. In all respects, the question of whether or not the Lion should come back depends on one's faith in GW's (or BL's) ability to properly execute such return, with all the relevant implications.

 

As far as Corax, I wouldn't mind seeing him return at some point, but not as a triumphant super-ninja capable of running covert ops on the daemon worlds of his fallen brothers. His storyline in the Heresy essentially ended with him having a massive death wish (as I interpreted it), and characters dealing with the extremes of emotion tend to make good fodder for Chaos corruption. If Corax is not making the best of decisions in his vulnerable state, and he might be potentially going into the place which is corruption incarnate... let's just say that if Corax returns ten thousand years later, he might be very different from what he was when he left. Think anything from the odd mutations (for all the expectations that Russ will return a full-blown Wulfen... what if it is not Russ, but Corax who gets the brunt of it?) to all out insanity/fall/corruption. Not only does this present some interesting modeling opportunities, but Corax falling to Chaos or horribly mutating would be a very, well, grimdark thing to add an extra layer of dark irony to the setting.