Primarch Updates

[DarkChaplain]

I'm still having a ridiculously easy time pitching Gav's Sundering trilogy to folks who don't usually read Black Library/Fantasy, and Angels of Darkness, Angels of Caliban, The Emperor Expects and others are pretty high up there with books I've enjoyed from BL.

Deliverance Lost was actually a lot cleverer than it usually gets credit for, and as an arc on Corax, Soulforge, Ravenlord and Weregeld work pretty damn well.

[Morovir]

Actually, speaking of Ferrus Manus' head:

 

Nick Kyme's Rebirth states that Ferrus Manus' head was returned to the Iron Hands by Guilliman in exchange for Codex-compliance, and then David Guymer's Eye of Medusa suggests that the head of Ferrus Manus lies at the heart of the Maze of Glass within the Eye of Medusa, eternally watched over by one of the Helfathers.

[Indefragable]

My own thoughts.

 

Khan:

 

If Khan has been captured in the webway by the dark eldar and tortured for 10k years, I could see him cracking and either becoming a Dark eldar primarch surrogate, or flipping to chaos to stop the torture and turning.

I think he is the most likely primarch to turn.

 

Russ:

Russ's disappearance seems to be loosely based on Odin/Thor lore, in addition to having some similarities to the Marvel Asgardian lore.

It's also of note that the Odin/Thor characters seem to alternate between Russ and the Emperor.

 

Going into the eye of terror and the warp to locate the fruit from the tree of life to bring back the emperor.

 

In this instance lets look at it this way, Odin hung from the tree of life for 9 days and nights and was pierced by a spear.

 

If we look at the tree of life in 40k as the Astronomicon and the Golden throne it kind of makes sense, the spear that pierces him could either be Horus's Talon, but more likely he hasn't been pierced by the spear. Yet. I believe that spear to be the Lion's sword is is required for the rebirth of the emperor and his ascension. In addition the 9 days and nights could be yet another reference to 9000~ years.

 

"He also pawned one of his eyes for a drink of the Spring of Mimir. Through this offering, Odin received supreme wisdom."

In this part I believe this to actually be Russ, in the Warp. He'll find the Tree of life/Fountain of youth, my guess is he finds the Warp Deity for Life in the 40k universe, and theres a cost to bring back some of the Warp infused waters to "revive/ascend" the emperor. for that russ pays an Eye.

 

Also symbolic because he is now a cyclops, the same as magnus (in that regard), this will also be a next step in change of perspective for russ.

 

"

Odin is said to have reached the world beyond the realms of death through his spiritual hanging. By this means he gained knowledge of the runes and learned to master their magic. This power allows him to bring the dead back. Odin preserved the head of Mimir (slain by the Vanir) with herbs to continue consulting him. Odin also has a reputaion for using deceitful magic. In art he is frequently portrayed with a missing eye as he undergoes the torment of hanging. Believers in Odin offered human sacrifices to this god.

Odin is married to Frigg. Odin will die a physical death in the jaws of the Fenrir wolf during the last great battle of Ragnarok."

 

this last passage of Odin's ascension is also important.

It talks of his reaching the warp, and coming to terms with being a god, and with it its powers and knowledge.

The head of Mimir is actually the head of a primarch, Ferrus. At his ascension, when the battle is on and in the imperial palace, a unknown vetcor will finally reveal his loyalties, Omegon. He is and has been loyal to the emperor, and one thing he's actively been working towards is getting the real skull of ferrus, he will return it to his father and the emperor will use the skull to bring back Ferrus, either as a warp deity or in physicality.

 

But before this occurs Odin's physical body must die, at the jaws of fenrir. Russ. Russ with the "knowledge or warp infused water" will understand that inorder to save the emperor and the imperium his physical body must die. Russ is and will always be loyal. Russ will end the emperors body on the golden throne, and RG and others will turn on him, Omegon, Cypher coming to russ's aid. The last battle ragnarok is the wolftime, and the battle for the fate of the emperor, if russ kills him he ascends, if chaos kills him they feast on his corpse in the warp.

 

but the story of russ before these events follow the path of Thor later in life, in lore and marvel lore. Rune Lord Thor is a thing, and that is what I suspect Russ to become. Magnus has hinted that Russ is the same as he, a powerful psyker. Now with russ being a cyclops he will also have mastered the Runes, and also pluck the threads of fate. Russ will be a mixture of Odin and Thor when he is revealed. Wise, a powerful pysker/seer, and monstrous in appearance he will be wulfen touched.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But this isn't the end of the 40k its really the beginning, for when the emperor ascends it stops galactic travel, the entire warp across the galaxy become turbulent and storm like, in this time, the chaos gods will get real footholds within the galaxy and the story goes on.

 

Great analysis.

 

As for the image you just put in my head of a bit slower, bit more cautious, wiser, one-eyed Russ emerging from the warp (and all the more dangerous for all of that), my only reaction is:

 

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif

[bluntblade]

Russ losing an eye to save his beloved kin? The parallels are almost too beautiful.

[Lord Marshal]

Honestly if Khan is the rumoured traitor I'll be very disappointed, especially if they go down the "being tortured makes you evil" route. In my view, it will come across as done largely because the White Scars are arguably the least popular Legion and turning the least popular Primarch traitor is a 'safer bet' than with say... Russ or the Lion.

[b1soul]

I dunno about Khan being most likely to turn

 

If Corax and Russ have been in the Eye for millennia, I actually think they are more likely to turn

 

Chaos is more corrupting than the DE in my opinion

[bluntblade]

I wonder if the Khan is following through on his promise to the Keeper of Secrets and conducting a one-man purge of the Webway.

[Lord Marshal]

I dunno about Khan being most likely to turn

 

If Corax and Russ have been in the Eye for millennia, I actually think they are more likely to turn

 

Chaos is more corrupting than the DE in my opinion

 

Russ won't turn because his model will make bank from Space Wolf/Space Marine players.

 

Corax, The Khan and maybe Vulkan are the ones I'm worried for.

[Marshal Loss]

Where did this 'a Primarch will turn' rumour come from exactly, out of interest? As interesting as it is to discuss, I don't see it happening.

[hopkins]

Where did this 'a Primarch will turn' rumour come from exactly, out of interest? As interesting as it is to discuss, I don't see it happening.

 

the only one i'm aware of is a non-FW primarch will be on team imperium

 

dorn, omegon, khan, sang or lion

 

if it's a loyalist turning traitor, then it could be one of many

[Lord Marshal]

Where did this 'a Primarch will turn' rumour come from exactly, out of interest? As interesting as it is to discuss, I don't see it happening.

 

Hastings if I remember right. Don't quote me on that though.

[HeritorA]

Actually, speaking of Ferrus Manus' head:

 

Nick Kyme's Rebirth states that Ferrus Manus' head was returned to the Iron Hands by Guilliman in exchange for Codex-compliance, and then David Guymer's Eye of Medusa suggests that the head of Ferrus Manus lies at the heart of the Maze of Glass within the Eye of Medusa, eternally watched over by one of the Helfathers.

Yeap - 'I have the head of your daddy. Put it in your reliquery my brothers and follow my musings!'

Right and people ask why the writing is bad

[Mellow]

Lorgar will return and take his rightful place as head of the ecclisiarchy :)

[Praetor of Calth]

 

Where did this 'a Primarch will turn' rumour come from exactly, out of interest? As interesting as it is to discuss, I don't see it happening.

 

Hastings if I remember right. Don't quote me on that though.

 

 

Nah, it came from a poster on this forum that occasionally posts things. 

 

Mortarion, Angron and Russ getting models soon comes from Hastings if we're discussing Primarch rumours. 

[Jagus Kumkani]

I actually know quite a few people who like the Salamanders books, or at least tolerate them.

 

Raven Guard are tougher, it's hard for me to muster any solid defense for Deliverance Lost, and I feel like coupled with other less flattering(Or too flattering.) portrayals it's resulted in a legion that's hard to do any justice to in the Horus Heresy and Great Crusade.

I've read every Salamanders book I can get my hands on. In my personal opinion, they're great books. The Salamanders warrior culture is explained fairly well, plenty of gun porn. The Salamanders are shown in the tenacious, never quit attitude they've always possessed. What the issue is, is that Kyme delves way too deep into the Salamanders compassion for humanity. Giving up strategic positioning, or something for that matter to help humans. He never explains how the Salamanders deal with their duty as warriors and staying true to their beliefs. If anything, that's all that needs to be explained in my opinion. They're just as ruthless and relentless as their cousin Chapters.

[Ascanius]

I actually know quite a few people who like the Salamanders books, or at least tolerate them.

 

Vulkan Lives isn't my favourite novel of the series by any means, but I thought it was effective at conveying Vulkan's state of mind, the qualities of the Legion, and was a neat little story of a Shattered Legions band bumping up against the bigger story arcs of the Heresy. I liked the way each chapter shifted point of view and even the person of the narrator, and I appreciated the way the character of Narek unfolded.

 

Since I'm going through the audiobooks in order (except when I jumped ahead to read Master of Mankind), maybe the others won't be as enjoyable, but I didn't think Vulkan Lives deserved the bile that's often spat at Kyme's Salamander novels here.

[Ascanius]

I would be interested to see how GW manages to bring back the Lion. All the fluff to bring him back is essentially there, and I can see the Lion actually getting into the proverbial bed with some of the more traditionalist, reactionary factions within the Imperium (and considering his... difficulties playing political games, there is much potential for interesting times there). It is a fair point about him being a counterweight to Guilliman, not just because of their common history, but because of which factions would coalesce around them (or would seek to prop each primarch to guide the direction of the Imperium).

 

I like this idea. The Lion's credo, "loyalty is its own reward," is an interesting counterpoint to Guilliman's attitude.

 

Guilliman believes in (his interpretation of) the ideals of the Imperium. He's not exactly a democrat, but he's at least an enlightened dictator who intends to rule for the greater good of his people, like the first Roman emperor, Augustus.

 

The Lion, however, is a knight - and knights, at least in the romantic conceptions of them, swear an unbreakable oath of fealty to their feudal lord. The Lion is loyal not because he believes in the Emperor's vision, but because disloyalty is unthinkable.

 

(I think this explains his blind spot when it came to Luther and, from a certain point of view, the continuing secrecy of the Dark Angels - inasmuch as shame over the disloyalty of the Fallen is a stain on their knightly honour, a stain so dark they can't bear for it to be known. It's not that the Unforgiven believe their own loyalty would be in question per se, it's that they can't live with the shame of it being public - and extreme secrecy in the pursuit of honour and loyalty is no vice.)

 

Therefore, I see some potential in the idea that the Lion would look at the state of the Imperium in M41, at the Emperor trapped in the Golden Throne, and say, "Well, if this is how he wants it, that's how it has to be."

[HeritorA]

Lorgar will return and take his rightful place as head of the ecclisiarchy

He is dead. You will see at the End of the HH, or Scouring - a surprise death from GW/BL.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

 

Lorgar will return and take his rightful place as head of the ecclisiarchy

He is dead. You will see at the End of the HH, or Scouring - a surprise death from GW/BL.

Except we know that he locked himself away in the Templum Inficio (Spelling?) after the heresy and his ascension to daemonhood in order to meditate/converse with the dark gods.

[1ncarnadine]

 

He is dead. You will see at the End of the HH, or Scouring - a surprise death from GW/BL.

 

 

Dang, I wish. I'm pretty sure AD-B has commented before that he really wanted this to be Lorgar's fate, but implied that it was unlikely to happen. 

 

It would be pretty great, though, and I guess it could honestly still happen? 

[Marshal Loss]

I don't think he's going to be killed. As LetsYouDown said, ADB had stated he wanted to but was not allowed (and he probably (?)wouldn't be saying that in public if there was a possibility it happened).

 

Lorgar has been mentioned as meeting Abaddon in the BL supplement codex, and in The Talon of Horus, there is this quote:

 

 

 

During that era we traversed the Empire of the Eye, ending the Legion Wars with our ascendance above the Nine, and one by one the primarchs bowed before Abaddon. Some willingly, some only grudgingly, and one who had to be brought to his knees. But all of them bowed in the end: Lorgar, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Angron, my father Magnus... even Mortarion, who came closest of all to slaying us through his holy plagues.

 

But yeah, he's not dead. Also, the cynic in me says that GW won't want any Primarchs permanently put down when we basically have Warhammer 30k 2.0 with Primarchs coming back. They'll want as many pieces available as possible to bring back over the coming years.

[b1soul]

Yup...I doubt Logar is dead

 

GW is scrambling to bring primarchs back, not retcon them into death

[HeritorA]

Yup...I doubt Logar is dead

 

GW is scrambling to bring primarchs back, not retcon them into death

Sadly. Cause then they start surprised deaths in one not so long ago released book - it would be a really good and interesting lore change. Plus anyway - as A D-B said before: they could probably kill Lorgar - he is not seen in lore/novels since HH, simply said by Erebus in Reynolds book to be meditating in the Temple

[Mellow]

From that quote I can't imagine Angron bowing. I'm sure he would be the one who had to be "brought to his knees".

 

Although why Primarchs would bow to a lowly gene-son is beyond me. Unless they view him as being stronger than they are because he has consistently refused the Chaos Gods blessings?

[Marshal Loss]

From that quote I can't imagine Angron bowing. I'm sure he would be the one who had to be "brought to his knees".

 

Magnus, not Angron.

 

 

 

The Thousand Sons know me as Khayon the Black, for my sins against our bloodline. My Warmaster’s forces name me Kingbreaker – the mage who brought Magnus the Red to his knees.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Marshal Loss