New Edition, new opportunities: Sky Claws vs. Blood Claws

[Miru]

Brothers, 

 

with the new edition I want to start a project I was thinking about for quite some time, but never came to it (for it wasn't wort it IMHO)...

 

I want to make following squad: 

 

10 Sky Claws with Wolfpriest w/ Jetpack. 

- all equipped with

-- Chainaxes (count as Chainswords) because: Angry space Vikings <3 axes

-- 1 Combi Flamer

 

• = 33 Attacks on the Charge (Skyclaws double their A, Priest contibutes 3), 23 attacks per CC round (due to Chain sword), hitting on 3s, reroll failed hit rolls (Priest).

 

+ If I manage to get a unit of Wulfen nearby (12"), another Attack is to be added to the Charakteristics, dealing

• 48 Attacks on the Charge, 33 Attacks per CC round.

 

 

 

 

15 x Blood Claws 

- All eqipped with

-- Chainnswords

-- a combi Flamer for the leader

-- maybe 2 Flamers (loosing on 4+ CC attacks, but maybe wreaking heavoc during the assault)

acompanied by Arjac Rockfist and Lucas the Trickster. 

 

Taking Lukas' and Arjak's attacks into account, that makes:

• = 53 Attacks on the Charge, 38 attacks per subsequent CC round, hitting on 2s (Lukas), Reroll 1s (Arjack).

 

+ If I manage to get a unit of Wulfen nearby (12"), another Attack is to be added to the Charakteristics and we are talking about an ass whooping of legendary 

• 68 attacks on the Charge and 53 attacks subsequent per CC round. (without the Wulfen)

Whoot theee fooork.... 

 

 

Without the Wulfen (and the Combi-Flamer), but with the Charackters we'd have the following stats: 

 

Skyclaws + Priest (272 points)

• 8,2   points per Attack (on the Charge)
• 11,8 points per Attack (CC)

 

 

Blood Claws + Arjak + Lukas (453 Points)

• 8,5 points per Attack (on the Charge)
• 11,9 points per Attack (CC)

 

Interestingly both units are pretty bloody close regarding their points per attack ratio.

 

Tell me... Is there a flaw in my reasoning or are both units rediculously good if paired with the right chars?

 

I assume only models within x inches can attack, which would hamper the BC's 60+ Attacks, no?

(I have not seen such a rule, but it would appear logical. However, if there is no such rule, all would hit.)

 

 

----------------------

Edit: 
Arjak only gives +1 Attack to Wolf Guard, not Blood CLaws. 
Values corrected.

[Wraithwing]

Tell me... Is there a flaw in my reasoning or are both units rediculously good if paired with the right chars?

 

I assume only models within x inches can attack, which would hamper the BC's 60+ Attacks, no?

(I have not seen such a rule, but it would appear logical. However, if there is no such rule, all would hit.)

It's UNITS within 6 inches, no models. Awesome eh?

[Miru]

 

Tell me... Is there a flaw in my reasoning or are both units rediculously good if paired with the right chars?

 

I assume only models within x inches can attack, which would hamper the BC's 60+ Attacks, no?

(I have not seen such a rule, but it would appear logical. However, if there is no such rule, all would hit.)

It's UNITS within 6 inches, no models. Awesome eh?

 

Oh yeah, I got this, but expressed it very wrong. Cheers :-)

Unfortunately I went a bit over board with Arjak's extra attacks, but its still pretty neat. 

[Wraithwing]

8th is designed for buff stacking from characters, much in the same way as AoS.

 

Wolf priests really shine when they're with multi wound models, like Wulfen or TWC. Healing balms can restore D3 wounds a turn. Unfortunately, it has no effect on single wound models.

[Miru]

8th is designed for buff stacking from characters, much in the same way as AoS.

 

Wolf priests really shine when they're with multi wound models, like Wulfen or TWC. Healing balms can restore D3 wounds a turn. Unfortunately, it has no effect on single wound models.

Well, they still give the re-roll on failed hits.

With Lukas, who makes them hit on a 3+, this is pretty powerfull, even without the healing. 

 

I was a bit bummed to see, that Apothecaries can revive models, but our Priests can't and we don't have an Apothecary. 

However, with the new detachments, I wonder whether I can put a vanilla Apothecary in one detachment with my Blood Claws. They all Share the Keyword Imperium after all... Any idea whether that is legal, I saw no contradicting rule so far.

 

It only says "all Models in a detachment must be from the same faction". Imperium is a Faction. 

All Spacemarines, IG, Inqusition etc. are Imperium, thus should freely be mixable within a single detachment. 

[Miru]

On another note...
 
I wondered wheter Close Combat Terminators, here: Void Claws, might be a better alternative. 
 
Variant 1.1:
10 Void Claws (9 Terminators + 1 Leader with 2x Wolf Claws each)
Plus Arjak (this time for the extra Attack) 
 

• 500 Points for 44 Attacks = 11,4 points per Attack

 

Variant 1.2:
10 Void Claws (9 Terminators + 1 Leader with 2x Wolf Claws each)
without Arjak  

• 360 Points for 30 Attacks = 11,4 points per Attack
  
   

Variant 2.1:

5 Void Claws (4 Terminators + 1 Leader with 2x Wolf Claws each)
Plus Arjak (Face Smashing MSU) 
 

• 345 Points for 24 Attacks = 14,4 points per Attack

 

 

Variant 2.2:
10 Void Claws (9Terminators + 1 Leader with 2x Wolf Claws each)
Plus Arjak (Cheapest MSU) 
 

• 205 Points for 44 Attacks = 13,7 points per Attack

 

It is recognisable, that Arjak clearly buffs the points per Attack ratio with Terminators and that bigger units give you more bang for the buck. 

 

 

I just cant figure out what would be more beneficial: 

 

10 Void Claw Termis with Arjack, which bring less pain but waaaay more survivability than Blood Claws, 

or the shere force of 15 BCs +2 Chars swarming the enemy, where you have to hope that you get there in sufficient numbers.

[Yoyo ninja]

 

 

8th is designed for buff stacking from characters, much in the same way as AoS.

 

Wolf priests really shine when they're with multi wound models, like Wulfen or TWC. Healing balms can restore D3 wounds a turn. Unfortunately, it has no effect on single wound models.

Well, they still give the re-roll on failed hits.

With Lukas, who makes them hit on a 3+, this is pretty powerfull, even without the healing.

 

I was a bit bummed to see, that Apothecaries can revive models, but our Priests can't and we don't have an Apothecary.

However, with the new detachments, I wonder whether I can put a vanilla Apothecary in one detachment with my Blood Claws. They all Share the Keyword Imperium after all... Any idea whether that is legal, I saw no contradicting rule so far.

 

It only says "all Models in a detachment must be from the same faction". Imperium is a Faction.

All Spacemarines, IG, Inqusition etc. are Imperium, thus should freely be mixable within a single detachment.

The new system let's you take stuff from which ever faction you want. But the more you specialise the better the stratagems you will have access to. So for example you can take anything with the imperium faction key word and have access to the imperium stratagem, but then if you just take things with the Adeptus Astarties faction key words you will be able to use the imperium and Astarties stratagems. If you go one step more and just take Space wolves then you can use the imperium, Astarties and Space wolves stratagems.

 

On top of that each step will improve the compatibility with the units you have. So the imperium will just be generic, like re-roll a squads missed shots for a turn (it might not be that, I just made that up as an example). Then an Astarties one will be something generic for all marines, like allow drop pods to deploy 1" closer to enemy units (again just an example). Then a Space wolf one would be specific to the way the wolves work on the battle field. So maybe allow some units that can't usually to advance and charge in a turn.

 

They might even take it one step further with the wolves and do specific great company stratagems. So maybe allow The Deathwolves to outflank a unit TWC along with Hard.

Or the Blackmains can deploy more than half of their forces with drop pods.

 

So it will all come down to what you want to do. If you want to take an Apothecary then you totally can, but at the expense of specific space wolves stratagems. It will be a toss up between the two different ways of list building as to what you want your units to achieve.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how good all the stratagems are to keep people using specific factions and less generic stuff.

 

Edit = grammar and added stuff I forgot to put in.

[Valerian]

 

 

8th is designed for buff stacking from characters, much in the same way as AoS.

 

Wolf priests really shine when they're with multi wound models, like Wulfen or TWC. Healing balms can restore D3 wounds a turn. Unfortunately, it has no effect on single wound models.

Well, they still give the re-roll on failed hits.

With Lukas, who makes them hit on a 3+, this is pretty powerfull, even without the healing.

 

I was a bit bummed to see, that Apothecaries can revive models, but our Priests can't and we don't have an Apothecary.

However, with the new detachments, I wonder whether I can put a vanilla Apothecary in one detachment with my Blood Claws. They all Share the Keyword Imperium after all... Any idea whether that is legal, I saw no contradicting rule so far.

 

It only says "all Models in a detachment must be from the same faction". Imperium is a Faction.

All Spacemarines, IG, Inqusition etc. are Imperium, thus should freely be mixable within a single detachment.

I'm not in front of my Index right now, but although a vanilla Apothecary can be added to your Detachment, I don't think he's able to heal your Soace Wolves. Check the Apothecary's ability, and it probably says something about healing <Chapter> infantry and bikes, which means he can only help those from his own Chapter, and he can't be a Space Wolf.

[Toasterfree]

*ignore the derp*

 

never mind I see the math

[Valerian]

I got home and double-checked the Apothecary entry, and as I thought, he can't heal your Space Wolves.

 

V

[Yoyo ninja]

Is there anything stopping you from inserting space wolves into the <chapter> section? Just curious more than anything, but we are still a chapter after all.

You would still have to use the adeptus astarties faction because we don't have apothecaries in the list of units available to space wolves. But I haven't seen anything that dictates what you can or cannot change <chapter> too.

[Toasterfree]

i asked simon. I shall await his response.

[Valerian]

Is there anything stopping you from inserting space wolves into the <chapter> section? 

 

Yes.  It's on the very first page of the Space Wolves section of the Index.

 

 

The following Space Marine data sheets can be from the Space Wolves Chapter.  Those that do replace the <Chapter> keyword on their datasheet in all instances with Space Wolves.  If a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Space Wolves Chapter, and so cannot have the Space Wolves Faction keyword.

 

 

Apothecaries are not on the list, obviously.

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Are we leaving Swift Claws out of this discussion? They are an extremely solid choice now.

[Yoyo ninja]

 

 

Is there anything stopping you from inserting space wolves into the <chapter> section?

Yes. It's on the very first page of the Space Wolves section of the Index.

The following Space Marine data sheets can be from the Space Wolves Chapter. Those that do replace the <Chapter> keyword on their datasheet in all instances with Space Wolves. If a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Space Wolves Chapter, and so cannot have the Space Wolves Faction keyword.

 

Apothecaries are not on the list, obviously.

 

V

Fair enough, suppose I should read things better. Haha.

[Toasterfree]

 

Fair enough, suppose I should read things better. Haha.

 

aint nobody got time for reading.