Imperium of Darkness, SW and Primaris Fluff

[Guest]

I went through and found every relevant piece of information I could find pertaining to the SW, the creation of Primaris Marines, and some of Guillimans personalities and goals.

 

I ask people to use a way to designate true facts, their opinions and rumors. This will prevent misunderstanding and separate fact from opinion and rumors.

 

I suggest something like this:

 

Facts are highlighted in blue.

 

My Thoughts: Well I think and coloring and putting a pre-title of "My Thoughts" Will prevent confusion

 

Rumor: Well X person said they saw the next book and all rumors are pre-titled Rumors and highlighted green.

Space Wolf Information

 

‘A wry comment then,’ said Bjarni. The wolf’s son was hanging from the drop line next to Justinian. He tapped him on the arm with the butt of his assault bolter. ‘Wish me luck, brother,’ he said quietly. Vox-beads fed his voice directly into Justinian’s ears.
‘Why do you need luck more than the rest of us?’ Solus interrupted.
‘It’s my thirteenth planetfall,’ grumbled Bjarni. ‘An ill-favoured number.’
‘The primarch’s Legion was the thirteenth! Do you not remember?’ said Justinian.
‘Why would I forget?’ replied Bjarni. ‘But where is the Thirteenth Legion now?’
‘Made into Chapters ten thousand years ago, for the greater good of the Imperium,’ said Cordus.
‘Broken into pieces you mean,’ said Bjarni. ‘I do not want to be broken into pieces.’

(Pg 95)

MY THOUGHTS: Foreshadowing of things to come? 

 

What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’ Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.
‘My standard response remains unchanged. Archmagos Belisarius Cawl understands your reservations. The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. I will restate Archmagos Belisarius Cawl’s position on this matter. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.

(Pg 196, note preceded note 1 in primaris section; succeeded by note 3 in primaris section)(note 2)

MY THOGHTS: So the SW still have the Canis Helix and is operating within normal parameters. This may mean that we still have wulfen, as Canis Helix turning us into wulfen is arguably normal parameters. This also means the Canis Helix WAS intentional, and was given to use by the Emperor.

 

 

‘That’s all well for you and yours,’ said Bjarni, slapping his hands against a table. ‘Roboute Guilliman was the architect of the Codex Astartes. My gene-father was against it. So far as I know, the Vlka Fenryka still are. Most of my brothers have gone home to Fenris, but I have not. What fate awaits me?’ ‘You’re an oversight, you barbarian,’ said Kalael with a sly smile. ‘We shall duel, Brother Kalael, and then we will see who is the oversight!’ barked Bjarni joyfully. It had always been thus. Kalael bated the wolf constantly; Bjarni pretended not to notice. Either would gladly die for the other. Felix was baffled why they did not kill each other. Felix’s face set as gravely as a memorial stone. Bjarni’s face froze. ‘Brother?’ ‘I…’ He held out a script of parchment with Bjarni’s name and number upon it. This was hard, but a leader could not shy away from the most difficult of tasks. ‘I am sorry, Bjarni. I know how much returning to Fenris meant to you.’ Bjarni’s skin had gone white. His faded tattoos stood out clearly on his cheek bones as he reached for the order scrip with shaking hands. ‘Very few of you will be going to your home worlds,’ said Felix. ‘I am sorry. I remember how we all spoke of serving with the founding Chapters.’ ‘It is easy for you to say,’ said Bjarni. ‘Who by the ice jotun are the Wolfspear?’ ‘They are a new Chapter, brother,’ said Felix. ‘The remainder of the sons of Russ are to remain here, at Raukos. You are to guard the Pit.’ Bjarni stared at the order paper.

(Pg 232)

 

‘We should be glad no matter our destination. A warrior’s function is to die well, in a good cause,’ said Aldred. ‘True,’ said Felix. ‘And our cause is the finest of all. We have lived and trained together. We are closer than any mixed brotherhood that has ever been. We have known the glory of combat and the tedium of waiting side by side. We have become friends, despite our differences. Each of us is part of a unit of many brothers of many kindreds, and we will take the friendships we have forged with us to our new Chapters. We will be the sinew that binds the bones of the Imperium together, transcending old boundaries.’ Felix turned to the Fenrisian. ‘Our bonds can never be sundered. You, Bjarni, are born of Fenris and are enhanced with the essence of the Primarch Leman Russ, different and strange to my own heritage, but you will always be my brother, no matter what colours you wear or what name the Chapter you belong to bears.’ ‘This is troubling, Brother Felix,’ Bjarni said thoughtfully. He was quick to rage and quick to laugh, but Bjarni had a deeper side that he hid most of the time. ‘I yearned to return to Fenris and fight alongside the Rout. Can I ever truly call myself a son of Russ if I do not?’ The last of the Primaris Space Marines were filtering into the room, exchanging quick whispers to update the newcomers. Felix handed the remainder of the scrips to Sarkis, who handed them out. ‘There are many Primaris Space Marines wearing the livery of the Vlka Fenryka, brother,’ said Felix. ‘You will be welcomed by them, even if Russ’ warrior-sons of the older breed remain aloof. And you will always be welcomed by me.’ ‘How will the lords of ice take it, though? Will I be forever lost without a home, brotherless, unable to return to Fenris?’ ‘You have too large a personality to ever be without friends,’ said Aldred. ‘I will fight any warrior who says otherwise.’ Bjarni and he slapped hands together and gripped them tightly.

(Pg 233/234)

(Chapter 16 has plethora of fluff on how Bjarni acts like a Wolf)

MY THOUGHTS: This shows the SW do NOT know that Guilliman made a successor chapter, and that they are not going to be happy about this. This is also telling me Guilliman is going to force his codex on all chapters. This may cause internal war among the astartes. I do not see ANY SW's being happy with this. The Primaris Marines aren't happy about it, Grimnar won't be happy, Russ won't be happy.

 

Primaris Information

 

Of the many tens of thousands of Primaris Space Marines created by Belisarius Cawl, only half were initially formed into new Chapters. The rest had been gathered into great great armies, each of one gene-line. They wore the livery of their founding primarchs, their badges crossed with pale grey chevrons, and within their gene-groupings they were then further organised into Chapter-sized formations.
There, agreement with the Codex Astartes ended.

(Pg 91/92)

MY THOUGHTS: The Primaris Marines that are in the Grey Shields are not Codex Compliant, however the Grey Shields are disbanded later in the book and made into successors and placed into weakened chapters. Therefore the rumors of Primaris not codex compliant is false. 

 

As the Indomitus Crusade progressed, the Unnumbered Sons had dwindled. Roboute Guilliman took them from their companies and their squads, and he assigned them to understrength Space Marines Chapters encountered on the way. Whole companies might be hived off, or only a few units. Sometimes the primarch took them by the hundred to create new Chapters where he saw the need…

(Pg 92)

MY THOUGHTS: Guilliman is replacing the old astartes with Primaris and replacing whole chapters with them. Knowing he has started to make and enforce the codex on non-codex chapters shows he MAY let the old astartes die off to enforce his codex on all.

 

Cawl was a secretive creature, detached from the wider galaxy while he pursued his quest to create the Primaris Space Marines. His records were incomplete, sometimes highly fragmentary, and all of them were short on detail

(Pg 123)

 

And, most amazingly, in creating the Primaris Space Marines, Cawl had improved upon the Emperor’s own designs.

(Pg 187)

 

 

‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl repeats that all gene-lines reveals a mutational deviancy of less than 0.001% per generation. All Adeptus Astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, replacing those zygotes lost through improper treatment or evolutionary variance, with the addition of the three new implants. All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation. As can be expected, those new Primaris-strain Chapters founded by you, my lord, have the lowest error rate. The new equipment functions well. Requests for resupply with the new type of battle-brother and their associated weaponry have increased, suggesting a ninety-four per cent acceptance rate among the Chapters.’

(Pg 195/ 196, note succeeded note 2 in space wolf section)(note 1)

 

‘Furthermore, he has continued experimental implantation and monitoring of the thus-far unused gene-seed in experimental test subjects. That of the Second, Third, Fourth, Eighth, Eleventh, Twelfth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Twentieth Legions all show no sign of degradation or incidence of unwelcome tendencies within the recipients. All is well, my lord, Archmagos Belisarius Cawl reassures you. He is so satisfied that I am instructed to repeat his request that those gene-lines be put into full production and be allowed to serve the Imperium as the Emperor intended.’
‘No,’ said Guilliman firmly. ‘I cannot allow it.’
‘My lord, the characteristics of your brothers are too valuable to discard. The Emperor’s original schema of warriors bred to specific purposes is sound, and should be exploited. Under the current circumstances, we are operating with half our weapons unavailable to us. The plan is unbalanced. Putting the remaining eleven augmented Primaris gene-lines into production would allow far greater tactical and strategic flexibility of Space Marine forces, particularly when working in concert.’
‘I say again, no. Do not progress any further with this research.’
‘The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their primarchs were. Chapters from your gene-line have also fallen in the past millennia, lord regent, and we do not censor them.’
‘I said no!’ said Guilliman forcefully.
There was a silence full of hums and clicks.
‘As you command, my lord,’ said the machine eventually. ‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl will comply.’
Can I truly believe that? thought Guilliman. All magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus hungered for knowledge. When they had it, they could rarely refrain from using it. On this particular matter, he did not trust Cawl one whit.

(Pg 196, note preceded note 2 in space wolf section)(note 3)

MY THOUGHTS: PRIMARIS CHAOS MARINES! also Cawl is power hungry to control mars and may cause the Dark Admech in rumors.

 

Archmagos Cawl’s prolonged hypno-indoctrination had given the Primaris Space Marines none of that, so the primarch appointed many of their number into important but non-crucial roles as aides to various adepta, or as assistants to established Space Marine officers, and that included those he took as his own equerry.

(Pg 221)

MY THOUGHTS: So the SW do not indoc Primaris but rather Cawl does... 

 

Thirdly, Felix reasoned, the primarch wanted to observe his new warriors at close hand. The Primaris Space Marines had been created at Guilliman’s behest, but they were creatures made by Cawl. If he were Roboute Guilliman, Felix would not have trusted the archmagos either.

(Pg 221)

 

He had been thirteen years old and ready to join the Legion as a neophyte when Cawl’s representatives had come calling, bearing the highest seals of all, and Felix had had one future taken away and this nightmare substituted in its stead. But he had kept all of his past, through millennia of stasis. He had forgotten nothing.

(Pg 221/222)

 

Guillliman

 

The primarch turned to his son. ‘You are so many generations removed from the original founding. You remain true to the Imperium. The dedication of the Ultramarines is a testament to the spirit of Ultramar and the will of the Emperor. It would have been better had more worlds been in your keeping. You must understand why I did what I did. I watched half my brothers fall to Chaos, and became determined that no one should ever hold the power of a Legion again. I became obsessed with the potential misuse of a few hundred thousand Space Space Marines, and in doing so I forgot about the petty self-interest of lesser men. This is I, whose preoccupation was to hurry the Great Crusade to an end so that I could get on with the business of peace!’ He laughed at himself. ‘Perhaps I would have failed there. These rulers who deny my seal and my right to revoke our treaties, they are not evil – they are perhaps not even stupid. They are simply limited as all men are limited.’
Guilliman fell silent, then smiled sadly. ‘Does it shock you, my son, to learn a primarch can err?’

(Pg 156/157)

 

For all his usefulness and his desire to save mankind, Guilliman could foresee a time when Belisarius Cawl became a problem

(Pg 199).

 

‘I have nothing but the greatest respect for our lord, but he lacks flexibility,’ said Kalael dourly. ‘He only created our formation to get around his ban on the founding of a new Legion. It is clear to me he can no longer continue to defy his own edicts.’ ‘Brother, you go too far,’ snarled Bjarni. ‘I do not criticise him,’ said Kalael emphatically. He had a narrow face, with a resting expression that radiated suspicion. He was always prying behind the seeming of things, looking for the secret truths beneath. ‘What I am am saying is that Roboute Guilliman is a general with a penchant for imposing rules, who then has to break them when he finds himself trapped by his own regulations. He is a great hero, but as he is at pains to remind us all, he is no god and is imperfect. That is all I am saying.’ He tapped his ear. ‘Listen to my words, brother Bjarni, or does the growling of beasts drown out reason?’ Bjarni ignored the slight, and rocked his head. ‘He is no Russ, that is sure. Russ had no care for  rules .’ ‘You should not talk that way about the primarch,’ said Felix. ‘He is not my primarch,’ said Kalael. ‘He is  the  primarch,’ said Felix. Kalael had always antagonised him. Unlike Bjarni, he could not overlook the son of the Lion’s attitude. ‘You will show him respect.’ ‘Just because you do not like what I say does not make it untrue. Is it untrue, Felix? You should know.’ Felix had no rejoinder to that. ‘Legion or not, the Greyshields shall fight together no more.’ Justinian looked at his hands. ‘We all knew this day would come, but I cannot believe it.’ ‘Is it not true that our numbers have dwindled as the fight has gone on?’ said Kalael. ‘Most of us have new brotherhoods. Those of us remaining in the fleet are, in the main, of Guilliman’s line. The gene-lines of the other primarchs are in the minority. There are enough Primaris Adeptus Astartes to replenish the Ultra­marines ten times over.’ Kalael picked up a chainsword tooth and scrutinised it carefully. ‘Perhaps he does not wish to disband his power base, but moves to openly proclaim a new Legion. Ten new Chapters of his own gene-line – I wonder where they might possibly be stationed?’

(Pg 230/231)

MY THOUGHTS: Chaos is being beaten, but Guillimans obsession with enforcing codex compliance and enforcing Ultramarine dominance over other chapters is cracking the alliance between chapters and may cause a civil war. With Crawl being denied control of Mars he may antagonize this civil war in revenge. This DA seems the most resistant and suspicious of Guilliman, making a previous rumor that The Lion would awake and stand up to Guilliman (further the story "are the DA loyal?" to continue). I see Bjarni or Kalael facing off with Felix in the future, most likely Kalael. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by Caldersson

[Guest]

I see lady atia here...

[Yoyo ninja]

Can we not use yellow? It's really hard to read on a white background. Maybe a dark green or something instead.

[Guest]

Can we not use yellow? It's really hard to read on a white background. Maybe a dark green or something instead.

Sure use a DA green, you traitor!

 

But yes green is better.

[Yoyo ninja]

 

Can we not use yellow? It's really hard to read on a white background. Maybe a dark green or something instead.

Sure use a DA green, you traitor!

 

But yes green is better.

I see my mistake and will work on correcting it. Hahaha

 

Thanks though.

[Fang_Guard23]

Guilliman may be pushing his rules on others but I think the space wolves will be just as resistant as they've ever been.

[Guest Triszin]

so if the Sw aren't aware of successors, thats gonna be bad for RG. I see fenris siding with DA and lion

[Karack Blackstone]

Guilliman may be pushing his rules on others but I think the space wolves will be just as resistant as they've ever been.

 

so if the Sw aren't aware of successors, thats gonna be bad for RG. I see fenris siding with DA and lion

 

RG pushing his Codex on others is a swift way for Imperium Secundus Secundus to take a swift dirt nap, to use a WoW meme really quickly.

 

As far as SW's, any unannounced successor Chapters of theirs that the SW's did not start is a swift... well, I think you know now.

[Grimtooth]

Still nothing that makes me think that GW put any thought into the integration of SW/BA Primaris Marines into their respective chapters. It is just still, " you have the same DNA, hug and make good".

 

Am I getting the impression on the above that Primaris SW have already been sent to the Wolves and this character is just left behind to guard the Pit with the Wolfspear (great Orin's Raven we are going to catch more crap for wolf references).

[Runefyre]

The Dark Angel's managed to petition Big G to maintain their existing structure, so I don't see why the Wolves couldn't.

 

It would HUGE fan dis-service by GW to completely throw the Wolves uniqueness out the window just to push new kits.

[Guest Triszin]

i kinda see it this way runefrye, we are the emperors and russ's wolves. and theres alone.

 

while RG thinks himself the ruler, even of the wolves now. when RG attempts to muzzle us we will bite his hand, if he advances towards us after that we will attack him.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Triszin

[Wraithwing]

Well, I was going to paint my Primaris as another chapter. Guess that chapter is now the Wolfspear.

[Guest]

Still nothing that makes me think that GW put any thought into the integration of SW/BA Primaris Marines into their respective chapters. It is just still, " you have the same DNA, hug and make good".

Am I getting the impression on the above that Primaris SW have already been sent to the Wolves and this character is just left behind to guard the Pit with the Wolfspear (great Orin's Raven we are going to catch more crap for wolf references).

So at the end of the indominus crusade RG had disbanded this huge group of mixed-chapter primaris "legion" called the greyshields. RG alone controlled this legion and only they all reported to him. At the end the rest of the chapters were sent home but the greyshields remained. Hence why the SW left but Bjarni was still there. This is when RG made the Wolfspear, cowardly when the Wolves were on their way home and had turned their sights. So many Primaris Wolves that Grimnar is unaware of were left behind to be forces into a chapter russ had opposed.

[Filius]

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

[Runefyre]

 

Still nothing that makes me think that GW put any thought into the integration of SW/BA Primaris Marines into their respective chapters. It is just still, " you have the same DNA, hug and make good".

Am I getting the impression on the above that Primaris SW have already been sent to the Wolves and this character is just left behind to guard the Pit with the Wolfspear (great Orin's Raven we are going to catch more crap for wolf references).

So at the end of the indominus crusade RG had disbanded this huge group of mixed-chapter primaris "legion" called the greyshields. RG alone controlled this legion and only they all reported to him. At the end the rest of the chapters were sent home but the greyshields remained. Hence why the SW left but Bjarni was still there. This is when RG made the Wolfspear, cowardly when the Wolves were on their way home and had turned their sights. So many Primaris Wolves that Grimnar is unaware of were left behind to be forces into a chapter russ had opposed.

 

Now I really want Russ to return and have a word with Guilliman.

 

i kinda see it this way runefrye, we are the emperors and russ's wolves. and theres alone.

 

while RG thinks himself the ruler, even of the wolves now. when RG attempts to muzzle us we will bite his hand, if he advances towards us after that we will attack him.

I hope that will the our disposition, any other and it would be character (chapter) assassination of the highest order. But with the current size of the chapter, I don't see it being anything but futile (I still think we've been numbered waay too small even though we're not codex compliant).

[Runefyre]

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

[Garreck]

Gotta finish reading and processing...but can I just say that I'm super happy that all of the concerns about super happy fun time hero 40k were completely unfounded and we still play in a setting of conflict, subterfuge, and distrust.

[Filius]

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

 

 

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

[Filius]

Ah and … thank you so much Caldersson, for the effort of writing all that down and to separate fact from opinion!

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

Still nothing that makes me think that GW put any thought into the integration of SW/BA Primaris Marines into their respective chapters. It is just still, " you have the same DNA, hug and make good".

Am I getting the impression on the above that Primaris SW have already been sent to the Wolves and this character is just left behind to guard the Pit with the Wolfspear (great Orin's Raven we are going to catch more crap for wolf references).

So at the end of the indominus crusade RG had disbanded this huge group of mixed-chapter primaris "legion" called the greyshields. RG alone controlled this legion and only they all reported to him. At the end the rest of the chapters were sent home but the greyshields remained. Hence why the SW left but Bjarni was still there. This is when RG made the Wolfspear, cowardly when the Wolves were on their way home and had turned their sights. So many Primaris Wolves that Grimnar is unaware of were left behind to be forces into a chapter russ had opposed.

 

Now I really want Russ to return and have a word with Guilliman.

 

i kinda see it this way runefrye, we are the emperors and russ's wolves. and theres alone.

 

while RG thinks himself the ruler, even of the wolves now. when RG attempts to muzzle us we will bite his hand, if he advances towards us after that we will attack him.

I hope that will the our disposition, any other and it would be character (chapter) assassination of the highest order. But with the current size of the chapter, I don't see it being anything but futile (I still think we've been numbered waay too small even though we're not codex compliant).

 

keep in mind with the great rift. Our companies lost in the warp, or in time may re-emerge. not withstanding the rest of the 13th co returning home. IF that happens we may yet be legion strength

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

Russ was alive and with the Wolves when the Wolf Brothers were created and ultimately failed.

 

The second attempt, called the Tempering, was highlighted in the book, Battle of the Fang, which was an attempt to have Wolves with all the ferocity, but no fear of the Curse of the Wulfen. The stated goal would have been an empire of Wolves rivaling the Ultras to encircle the Eye of Terror.

 

Magnus ultimately stepped in to prevent this from happening in his assault in the Fang and destruction of the labs and wolf priest conducting the work. However in conference after the battle, Bjorn tells the new great wolf that if he had known he would have destroyed it himself as it was not as Russ intended and wyrd and stuff.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Brother Ramses

[Filius]

 

 

 

 

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

Russ was alive and with the Wolves when the Wolf Brothers were created and ultimately failed.

 

The second attempt, called the Tempering, was highlighted in the book, Battle of the Fang, which was an attempt to have Wolves with all the ferocity, but no fear of the Curse of the Wulfen. The stated goal would have been an empire of Wolves rivaling the Ultras to encircle the Eye of Terror.

 

Magnus ultimately stepped in to prevent this from happening in his assault in the Fang and destruction of the labs and wolf priest conducting the work. However in conference after the battle, Bjorn tells the new great wolf that if he had known he would have destroyed it himself as it was not as Russ intended and wyrd and stuff.

 

Thanks, that's interesting because it also opens doors in several directions, as so often in 40k. :)

[Valerian]

 

 

 

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

It wasn't the Spce Wolves but the High Lords that decided not to make more Successor Chapters from the Wolves' geneseed. At least that's how the Studio has always presented it in codexes. As far as I know, Chapters have no say in what the Imperium decides to do with new Foundings.

[Sun Reaver]

 

 

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

It wasn't the Spce Wolves but the High Lords that decided not to make more Successor Chapters from the Wolves' geneseed. At least that's how the Studio has always presented it in codexes. As far as I know, Chapters have no say in what the Imperium decides to do with new Foundings.

 

 

That is correct. Only High Lords can decree new Foundings and more often than not, more stable geneseed(UM) is used so the process is easier and reliable. 

 

In terms of the Wolfspear (successor Primaris chapter), I am pretty sure the SW are on board with it. The SW are never specifically mentioned in the book unless Bjarni mentions them. Cawl tells RG that 94% of the existing chapters have accepted the Primaris marines. 

 

I believe the SW themselves have been reinforced by Primaris marines as RG, Felix, and Cawl mention that numerous Primaris marines of all geneseeds have been sent back to their parent/successor chapter to aid in bringing them back to full strength. Each gene line produced thousands of Primaris marines with Guilliman's line having the most due to the fact that most chapters are of his gene stock. Logically, that would mean that many Primaris marines of Russ' line would have gone back to reinforce their chapter. Plus, the SW were pretty beat up before the start of the Indomitus Crusade, I am positive they accepted reinforcements. 

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited June 9, 2017 by Sun Reaver

[Guest]

Except the SWs left and his order came from Guilliman. If there was a new founding I would expect Grimnar to be the one to give the order to for a successor chapter.

 

Making a successor chapter when the SWs are at their weakest makes even less sense, to further that to leave a successor on a planet that could be wiped out in a moment that has no Fenrisians on board to restock their own ranks. It is an idea only a fool would think was a good idea. In a moment The Eye could wipe Fenris out as Cadia has fallen, and the Pit of Raukos first planet in its path is where the Wolfspear are.

 

6% of chapters could leave dozens of chapters opposing the Primaris. Notably the DA being suspicious of Cawl/Guilliman, the BA attempting to hide the Black Rage/Red Thirst, and SW and their unity and traditions. These three are also pseudo- or non-codex compliant and are not the biggest fans of Guilliman.