Imperium of Darkness, SW and Primaris Fluff

[Filius]

 

 

 

Ahmm … didn't Russ give in to avoid a second schisma and allowed the Creation of the Wolf Brothers?

 

And weren't they intended to be the first off-shoot Chapter created from the Space Wolves as part of a grand plan to create a force termed The Sons of Russ, a whole lot if successor Chapters?

 

And wasn't the decision to not further research on the gene-seed by wolf priests with the goal to be able to create Successor-Chapters made by Arvek Hren Kjarlskar and Bjørn, and not by Russ himself?

 

And wasn't this decision made, because of the degeneration problem of the successor chapter, and not out of fundamental opposition against the Codex?

Doesn't change the fact that Russ did oppose it, all it showed was that Russ was one of the smartest Primarchs, willing to swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand (he did this in Leman Russ: The Great Wolf as well, where he publicly apologized to the Lion for a mistake by Wolves legionnaires, even though the Dangels nearly botched the whole campaign, just to save time and keep the fight moving forward).

Ahm … yeah … what I wanted to say (but didn't say, because I'm not too sure within the Wolves Fluff): If I remember / understand correctly, the Wolves, not Russ, stopped the Plan to create Successor Chapter because and only because of the degeneration of the Wolf Brothers. Now that this problem seems to have been solved, some great Wolf might remember the example Russ gabe and swallow his pride for the better of the situation at hand … and don't just rage around about the Primaris.

It wasn't the Spce Wolves but the High Lords that decided not to make more Successor Chapters from the Wolves' geneseed. At least that's how the Studio has always presented it in codexes. As far as I know, Chapters have no say in what the Imperium decides to do with new Foundings.

 

 

Ah. That's right, sorry … which makes things even more complicated.

 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

6% of chapters could leave dozens of chapters opposing the Primaris. Notably the DA being suspicious of Cawl/Guilliman, the BA attempting to hide the Black Rage/Red Thirst, and SW and their unity and traditions. These three are also pseudo- or non-codex compliant and are not the biggest fans of Guilliman.

 

As far as I know (haven't read the book) the Blood Angels are nearly wiped out and hardly have a choice when it comes to opposing the Primaris … and I'm pretty sure they even wouldn't if they were at full strength, because every hope for a cure for the Black Rage is … well, Hope for the Blood Angels and even more or Successor Chapters like the Flesh Tearers.

[Kelborn]

Thank you, Caldersson, for your summary!

 

Now, we know at least a bit more about facts and don't have to rely only on rumors.

 

Is Kaleal a Blood Angel or from which Legion does he derive?

 

All those tiny bits do sound like a civil war within the Imperium being very likely.

 

- RG & his UM sons

- Lion & his DA sons (MAYBE even the SW and other suspicious chapters)

- Cawl & Traitor / (hopefully no) Lost Legion Primaris and a coming DarkMech faction

- Lords of Terra & Ecclisiarchy (and most likely the miserable remains of the former Imperium)

 

IG & and other sub-factions are spread across those four.

 

Combined with the constant threats of Xenos and Chaos alike, the galaxy would be really *cuss*ed up...again.

[Hellrender]

Also.. It could just be that the aspirants that cawl implanted with sw geneseed are actually fenrisians.

 

Think about it. We know they were in a pod for 10k years and we know that thode that became primaris were aspirants (so recruits pre implantation process) during the horus heresy.

 

So there is nothing preventing cawl from having gathered fenrisian aspirants just because it was proven during that era that fenrisians were better receivers for the canis helix. If i was a crazy scientist and experimentating, i would limit the amount of possibilities of things avle to go wrong.

 

That said, if they are fenrisians, and considering the loses suffered during wrath of magnus, i do not see why tje space wolves would not accept primaris wolves in their chapter to better kick traitor butts.

[Guest]

[quote name="Filius" post="4777244" timestamp="1496985353"

*snip*

6% of chapters could leave dozens of chapters opposing the Primaris. Notably the DA being suspicious of Cawl/Guilliman, the BA attempting to hide the Black Rage/Red Thirst, and SW and their unity and traditions. These three are also pseudo- or non-codex compliant and are not the biggest fans of Guilliman.

 

As far as I know (haven't read the book) the Blood Angels are nearly wiped out and hardly have a choice when it comes to opposing the Primaris … and I'm pretty sure they even wouldn't if they were at full strength, because every hope for a cure for the Black Rage is … well, Hope for the Blood Angels and even more or Successor Chapters like the Flesh Tearers.

 

If you are talking about "Devastation of Baal" book, that is unreleased and is 100% rumor at this time. We had "photos of the book Wrath of Magnus destroying Fenris" which turned out fake. At this time we must wait.

[Guest]

Thank you, Caldersson, for your summary!

 

Now, we know at least a bit more about facts and don't have to rely only on rumors.

 

Is Kaleal a Blood Angel or from which Legion does he derive?

 

All those tiny bits do sound like a civil war within the Imperium being very likely.

 

- RG & his UM sons

- Lion & his DA sons (MAYBE even the SW and other suspicious chapters)

- Cawl & Traitor / (hopefully no) Lost Legion Primaris and a coming DarkMech faction

- Lords of Terra & Ecclisiarchy (and most likely the miserable remains of the former Imperium)

 

IG & and other sub-factions are spread across those four.

 

Combined with the constant threats of Xenos and Chaos alike, the galaxy would be really *cuss*ed up...again.

Kaleal is a DA, he refered to as The Lion or Son of The Lion.

[Guest]

Also.. It could just be that the aspirants that cawl implanted with sw geneseed are actually fenrisians.

Think about it. We know they were in a pod for 10k years and we know that thode that became primaris were aspirants (so recruits pre implantation process) during the horus heresy.

So there is nothing preventing cawl from having gathered fenrisian aspirants just because it was proven during that era that fenrisians were better receivers for the canis helix. If i was a crazy scientist and experimentating, i would limit the amount of possibilities of things avle to go wrong.

That said, if they are fenrisians, and considering the loses suffered during wrath of magnus, i do not see why tje space wolves would not accept primaris wolves in their chapter to better kick traitor butts.

Bjarni is 100% Fenrisian, in the book it says how UM have 10x as many Primaris and create 10x Primaris Chapters and that other chapters get 1 and replace some lost chapters.

 

Its not about the SW accepting the Primaris, I am sure we would. It is that Guilliman made a successor chapter when we did not want or know about it. It is enforcing his new codex (yes he does write a new unreleased one in the book) on chapters that do not want it.

 

As Bjarni says: ‘Broken into pieces you mean,’ said Bjarni. ‘I do not want to be broken into pieces.’

[Filius]

 

*snip*

 

If you are talking about "Devastation of Baal" book, that is unreleased and is 100% rumor at this time. We had "photos of the book Wrath of Magnus destroying Fenris" which turned out fake. At this time we must wait.

 

Yes, I did refer to the Text from the Fate of Baal Thread, which doesn't really look like a whole book but more like something from the Core-Book or one of the Indices. But your're right,  we'll see that in a bit more than a week …

[Hellrender]

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine. 

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

[Jackalwolf]

 

keep in mind with the great rift. Our companies lost in the warp, or in time may re-emerge. not withstanding the rest of the 13th co returning home. IF that happens we may yet be legion strength

 

 

 

That's the whole theme I'm building my 40k wolves around. True scaled 13th company coming back from the rift without the Wulfen curse, since when Bulveye meets Ragnar he's clearly not a wolf, so I assume there are more that didn't became Wulfen.

 

Just hope 40k lore follows suit and gives us a good comeback of the Wolf Brothers and Russ.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Grieux

[Kelborn]

@Caldersson: Thanks. Got a question regarding time occurrence.

 

When does Dark Imperium take place? Right after GS and throughout the Indomitus Crusade? Or more at the very end of said crusade?

 

Could there be the slight chance of RG forbidding Cawl to not use traitor geneseed at the beginning of the book / Crusade but Cawl ignoring it and making use of them at the very end of the Crusade?

[Guest]

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine. 

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

Where does cawl get his geneseed from? As noted before even Cawl still requires Fenrisians to make SWs, where does he get a Fenrisian who are ruled and managed by the SW's.

 

If Cawl is given free access to these what stops Guilliman from making a 2nd successor chapter.. a 3rd.. a 100th? Soon the SW are just a shade of the over ruling SW successors who live under Guillimans thumb and codex, which goes against our gene-father.

 

Yes if the primaris will be accepted into the SWs but what as I said before its not about them coming to us, its about successor chapter being made and without our knowledge or permission. If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

High Lords of Terra didnt authorize the making of the Primaris Marines, this was all been done by Guillan. He has over ruled the High Lords and broke promises of the 500 planets of Ultramar that allowed them to rule themselves. This is foreshadowing that Guilliman will force his codex. It is even showed in the book how Guilliman is enforcing unity and uniformity among all the imperium. Non-Ultramar IG wearing Ultramar uniforms instead of their own, the 500 planets being forces back into Imperial Secundus, the want to eliminate any variations in gene-stock (especially SW and BA), etc etc.

[Guest]

@Caldersson: Thanks. Got a question regarding time occurrence.

 

When does Dark Imperium take place? Right after GS and throughout the Indomitus Crusade? Or more at the very end of said crusade?

 

Could there be the slight chance of RG forbidding Cawl to not use traitor geneseed at the beginning of the book / Crusade but Cawl ignoring it and making use of them at the very end of the Crusade?

The Indominus Crusade ends ~112 years after Guillimans re-awakening and about half way through the book. Guilliman bans the use of making the Traitor Legion Gene-seed after the end of the Indominus Crusade. Guilliman does not believe Crawl will listen and its sorta suggested he already bas experimented by the way the AI explains. The crusade ends at the planet infront of a huge rift opening call the Pit of Rauknos (spelling) and the location of the Wolfspears. After that starts the Ultramarines vs Death Guard.

[Hellrender]

 

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine. 

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

Where does cawl get his geneseed from? As noted before even Cawl still requires Fenrisians to make SWs, where does he get a Fenrisian who are ruled and managed by the SW's.

 

If Cawl is given free access to these what stops Guilliman from making a 2nd successor chapter.. a 3rd.. a 100th? Soon the SW are just a shade of the over ruling SW successors who live under Guillimans thumb and codex, which goes against our gene-father.

 

Yes if the primaris will be accepted into the SWs but what as I said before its not about them coming to us, its about successor chapter being made and without our knowledge or permission. If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

High Lords of Terra didnt authorize the making of the Primaris Marines, this was all been done by Guillan. He has over ruled the High Lords and broke promises of the 500 planets of Ultramar that allowed them to rule themselves. This is foreshadowing that Guilliman will force his codex. It is even showed in the book how Guilliman is enforcing unity and uniformity among all the imperium. Non-Ultramar IG wearing Ultramar uniforms instead of their own, the 500 planets being forces back into Imperial Secundus, the want to eliminate any variations in gene-stock (especially SW and BA), etc etc.

 

 

Not sure if we are talking about the same problem here.

 

In my opinion, successors have no influence on the uniqueness of Space Wolves as a chapter. there can be 50, but that doesn't mean that the Space Wolves as a chapter change. 

 

But i dont see the problem with that?

[Valerian]

Except the SWs left and his order came from Guilliman. If there was a new founding I would expect Grimnar to be the one to give the order to for a successor chapter.

 

 

As mentioned earlier, Chapters have no say in Foundings.  It definitely would not be Grimnar's call to make such an order.

 

 

 It is that Guilliman made a successor chapter when we did not want or know about it. It is enforcing his new codex (yes he does write a new unreleased one in the book) on chapters that do not want it.

 

 

Yeah, he gets to do that.  Right now, he's in charge of the Imperium, with the Emperor's blessing.  As far as I understand he, he has fired the High Lords, and it used to be the High Lords that decided when to initiate Foundings, and what gene-seed to use for the new Chapters in those Foundings.  The First Founding Chapters from whence that gene stock comes have no say and nothing to do with it.  And further, if Lord Commander Guilliman wants to ensure those new Chapters use his new revised version of the Codex for organization, then he's fully within his rights to do that, too.  

 

 

 If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

The answer to that has been hinted at in several publications over the years.  Here's the bit from the 5e codex, page 9, 

 

"The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter.  Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen."

Edited June 9, 2017 by Valerian

[Valerian]

 

 

  The crusade ends at the planet in front of a huge rift opening call the Pit of Rauknos (spelling) and the location of the Wolfspears. 

 

I'd say that looks to be a pretty smart move.  Just as Fenris is positioned close to the Eye, and the Space Wolves help guard the Imperium form incursions from it, the Wolfspears are now similarly strategically positioned to help guard the Imperium from incursions from the Pit of Rauknos.  Who better for such a vital task than more Sons of Russ?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Caldersson, thanks for laying these fluff excerpts out. Nicely done. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

So they Grey Sheilds are Primaris marines from all the chapters?

 

Although they consist mainly of Ultramarines?

 

Sorry for the question, just wasn't sure what I was reading.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Valerian: Guilliman has replaced half the High Lords and hundreds of minor lords

[Guest]

So they Grey Sheilds are Primaris marines from all the chapters?

 

Although they consist mainly of Ultramarines?

 

Sorry for the question, just wasn't sure what I was reading.

Yes a temporary legion that was divided at the end of the crusade.

[Lord Ragnarok]

 

Its not about the SW accepting the Primaris, I am sure we would. It is that Guilliman made a successor chapter when we did not want or know about it. It is enforcing his new codex (yes he does write a new unreleased one in the book) on chapters that do not want it.

 

 

Not to worry...It's space wolves. The Wolfspear will leave with Codex copies of tactics, strategies, preferred equipment. These pages will be used for blood oaths, spit wads, toilet paper and all the wolf strategies, preferred equipment, and tactics will be memorized, recorded in rich grey-matter in the fires of battle, to be passed to later generations with a cuff to ear, under stern visage or hearty laughter. 

 

At least that's how I'll embellish the fluff of the Wolfspear...

[Kelborn]

Are there any hints of a possible second wave of Cawl's Primaris?

 

Or are those 10 UM & 8 (one per First Founding chapter) others all we currently got, besides the reinforcements for certain chapters?

[Valerian]

@Valerian: Guilliman has replaced half the High Lords and hundreds of minor lords

 

Yeah, I thought it was something like that.  The important part is that, until any other Primarchs show up, he's in charge of the Imperium of Mankind on behalf of his father.  

 

 

So, to switch focus just a bit, I've been wondering several things since we've gotten this feedback on the contents of Dark Imperium (thanks, Caldersson, by the way for providing those snippets).  Where will we be in the timeline of the setting when 8th edition drops?  I assumed a few weeks back that we'd be just kicking off the Indomitus Crusade, and starting the counter-offensive.  It made sense following the attacks in the Fenris sector and everything that happened in the Gathering Storm, and with Abaddon's Black Crusade that things were well set-up for entry into 8th edition, and possibly the "Wolftime" and the return of Russ, and other Primarchs.  However, with the ending of this book, we're now 112 years in the future, and the crusade has ended.  Mission accomplished, and everybody has gone home for tea and medals.  So, it seems that the crisis that had been teed up was resolved during the edition change, instead of being the focus of our games in that setting in the new edition. 

 

Also, 112 years is a pretty significant amount of time, even to Space Marines, especially with most of the Chapters actively involved in the campaign.   So, what else has changed?  Logan Grimnar was already a very old man for a Space Wolf, and Ulrik even older than him - have they both survived the century?  Have all of the Wolf Lords survived?  Is Ragnar still hot-blooded like a fresh Blood Claw at his ripe age of 150 or so?  

 

I don't mind them moving the timeline forward, but if they're going to move it, they can't just add Primaris Marines while leaving everything else the same.  

 

Thoughts?

 

 

v

[Hellrender]

I agree. I was thinking about this too. Ragnar was a hot blooded and very young wolf lord at the end of 41st.. Now that we are well on our way in the 42nd i find all that should be tempered somewhat.

 

Also.. What happened to the space wolves after the wrathbof magnus story line? Werent there 1 or more wolf lords that died? What does bjorn think of the primaris and guilliman.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, agreed. Way too much time. Every faction would probably have had some highs and lows in that timeframe. Perhaps they plan on filling that void with novels?

[Kelborn]

Wasn't it sais that they have problems with the exact date?

 

That we might still be in M41?

 

Are the 112 years fixed or assumed?

 

Whatever the case, I agree that the setting abd the characters HAVE to be updated as well.