Imperium of Darkness, SW and Primaris Fluff

[Valerian]

Yeah, I read that they don't really know what the exact current date is, but they would know that 112 years had passed in the execution of the campaign, so the time change has occurred, even if we don't know the "true" date.

[Arkangilos]

I got something totally different from the last thing in the OP. What I got was that Guilliman does NOT want to enforce the codex anymore, and sees that doing so was a mistake, and that he now wants to rectify that mistake but cannot because they wouldn't let him, so he created a new army to bypass that.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Wispy]

I got something totally different from the last thing in the OP. What I got was that Guilliman does NOT want to enforce the codex anymore, and sees that doing so was a mistake, and that he now wants to rectify that mistake but cannot because they wouldn't let him, so he created a new army to bypass that.

 

this sounds more in character to me. could you expand on this? I'd like to hear it from someone who has less bias on this, as there's this bent among many forumers here who want to make RG out to be a villain. it's annoying and makes it hard to disentangle the bias from actual information.

 

enforcing the codex would be the last thing on his mind. if he wanted to enforce the codex, he'd be folding primaris into existing formations that could easily integrate instead of making up new ones.

[Kelborn]

Facts are (for most of the time) influenced by the person, who delivers them.

 

Thus, I agree with Wispy in that another pov on those quotes might be illuminating. :)

[Guest]

To answer questions:

 

8th editions appears be after Indominus Crusade based on how it is Guilliman vs Mortarion which is after the crusade.

 

No details on other chapters really Calgar is still there. This book didnt focus on anyone else except Ultramarines and Primaris.

 

Egil Ironwolf died during Warzone Fenris, Egils successor and Sven Bloodhowl died during Cadia, in fact the whole company of both did. No known successors.

 

There is a whole chapter how there is multiple date formats and even multiple ways to use those dates. so guilliman makes a whole administratum that collects the empires history. The ecclesiarchy opposes this and multiple people have gone "missing" when trying to achieve his goal.

[Guest]

 

I got something totally different from the last thing in the OP. What I got was that Guilliman does NOT want to enforce the codex anymore, and sees that doing so was a mistake, and that he now wants to rectify that mistake but cannot because they wouldn't let him, so he created a new army to bypass that.

 

 

this sounds more in character to me. could you expand on this? I'd like to hear it from someone who has less bias on this, as there's this bent among many forumers here who want to make RG out to be a villain. it's annoying and makes it hard to disentangle the bias from actual information.

 

enforcing the codex would be the last thing on his mind. if he wanted to enforce the codex, he'd be folding primaris into existing formations that could easily integrate instead of making up new ones.

I assume you are talking about the one with Kalael?

 

There is two quotes that may help you. I am on phone so disregard color for now.

 

(Guilliman): Now I have concluded my revisions of the Codex Astar­tes, I have begun work upon a new book. This book I shall call the Codex Imperialis. In it I shall set down the principles of good governance long denied our species. Compiling an accurate history is only the start of the process.’

 

MY THOUGHTS: There is a new codex so yes the codex will be there and will probably include the Primaris. At no point did Guilliman say the codex was wrong in the book and I cant find any info that says he says it was wrong or right, its just updated. So assume as you want if he think the codex was wrong or right.

 

(The previous paragraph before my last quote in OP)

 

Felix nodded. ‘The Greyshields have served their purpose. The last few formations of the Unnumbered Sons will be broken up, wherever they are. All of us are to be assigned to other Chapters.’

 

MY THOUGHTS: I should have included this. Hell I wish I could post the whole chapter 15. So the codex is being enforced on all new chapters. The greyshields were a means of a way to end the crusade quickly and now they are broken into chapters. felix goes on to sayshow they will all be broke into 1000 man battle groups and be assigned into new chapter or reinforcing older chapters.

[Guest pandion40]

I've also read the novel and I came away with a different interpretation. But I also went into it not disliking Guilliman and not wanting a civil war. So that is my bias going in.

 

My impression is that Guilliman is walking a knife edge trying to change and improve the imperium without pissing off anyone unless he has to. He's trying not to be a dictator. So he's set about improving the imperium in the way only Guilliman could in my opinion. He's a master administrator. He hates the current imperium but as it says in the book his overriding quality is pragmatism, he's accepting a lot of things he hates but it would cause to many problems to change. He also acknowledged he made many mistakes after the heresy. He's not infallible so a large scale civil war is possible, but I don't think that's the direction we're going any time soon.

 

He is not going to inforce the codex on the wolves. For a start he's already alllowed the dark angels to stay divergent plus he's a very pragmatic person, enforcing the codex on the wolves would cause him massive problems and gain him almost nothing. Plus he didn't try to enforce the codex on them after the heresy. I also doubt the wolves would be pissed he's started a successor chapter without their permission. It's not their place to give permission in the first place, they wouldn't expect to be consulted. I'll be interested in what happens to the successor, will they stay codex or drift to a space wolf organisation. I don't see Guilliman caring about that either. He's got other problems.

Edited June 10, 2017 by pandion40

[Guest]

I will agre hes not attempting to start a civil war. My point is that his way of doing this is cracking the imperium forcing a civil war.

 

A quote

 

A few are braver and insist the ancient treaties cannot be revoked, even by you, my lord, and are determined to retain their independence.’

‘They are wrong,’ said Guilliman.

Ventris watched a small wheeled transport speed across the plaza towards the construction line, throwing up a plume of settled dust that drifted back down as it passed. ‘They are… disquieted by the fate of some of their peers.’

‘Only those who rule poorly have anything to fear,’ said Guilliman.

‘It is, naturally, the more autocratic rulers who oppose your rescinding of their independence.’

‘Then they only delay the inevitable,’ said Guilliman. ‘They will fall into line and ask politely for mercy, or they will be executed.’

 

Things like this is what cause civil wars.

 

I never said he was enforcing the codex on the wolves, and it irkes me that i have to repeat this so many times and makes me swear, he is enforcing it on the successor chapters. Something that russ, whom gene-seed they used, said not to do. Plus where are they getting the Fenrisians to make replacement for these chapters? Where did they take the geneseed from. Normally a portion of troops are donated by the parent company. This time a whole chapter is made without any parent company donating lead or troops.

[Wispy]

Grimnar is going to move the stars to establish brotherhood with the Wolfspear. The length he's gone for the 13th Company will tel you that much.

 

A second perspective: bet against any theory that involves nudging fans to reject Primaris.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I've also read the novel and I came away with a different interpretation. But I also went into it not disliking Guilliman and not wanting a civil war. So that is my bias going in.

 

My impression is that Guilliman is walking a knife edge trying to change and improve the imperium without pissing off anyone unless he has to. He's trying not to be a dictator. So he's set about improving the imperium in the way only Guilliman could in my opinion. He's a master administrator. He hates the current imperium but as it says in the book his overriding quality is pragmatism, he's accepting a lot of things he hates but it would cause to many problems to change. He also acknowledged he made many mistakes after the heresy. He's not infallible so a large scale civil war is possible, but I don't think that's the direction we're going any time soon.

 

He is not going to inforce the codex on the wolves. For a start he's already alllowed the dark angels to stay divergent plus he's a very pragmatic person, enforcing the codex on the wolves would cause him massive problems and gain him almost nothing. Plus he didn't try to enforce the codex on them after the heresy. I also doubt the wolves would be pissed he's started a successor chapter without their permission. It's not their place to give permission in the first place, they wouldn't expect to be consulted. I'll be interested in what happens to the successor, will they stay codex or drift to a space wolf organisation. I don't see Guilliman caring about that either. He's got other problems.

This is the Guilliman I had in my head per previous fluff readings and my own interpretation. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Lord Ragnarok

[Guest pandion40]

As I said he's walking a knife edge, you think he'll fall I do not. I think there will be small scale battles in the Terran side of the imperium, at the system or even multiple system level but nothing major. The other side of the rift will be another story, it'll probably devolve into multiple empires.

 

I don't recall him saying he was forcing the codex on all the successor's in fact all his new primaris marines already broke that codex and his new codex is unfinished and I got the impression that was a codex about good governing not organising the astarties.

 

Where did you get that information about what russ said about the successors, all the info I read says he refused to change his wolves but said nothing about successors. Indeed there was only one formed in a kind of half hearted placating attempt. Not saying your wrong, I read a lot of fluff but I'm a BA fan and haven't read any SW codex for a long time, plus I'm not fully up to date with heresy novels.

 

Anyway I'd maintain Guilliman has more than enough to worry about and is not going to do anything if the Wolfspear follow the space wolves organisation, he may force them to stay at about 1000 warriors, but that's the limit of what he may do in my opinion.

 

As to the gene seed he probably got it from the tithe all chapters submit to the mechanicus for testing. This is where the gene seed for successors normally comes from. Altering it to make primaris marines is dodgy but using it to create new chapters is well within his rights.

 

My impression is that the fenriesians were gathered just after the heresy and kept on ice. As to where new recruits will come from I've no idea, I know non fenriesians are unstable as SW. Did they explain how they made Terran space wolves.

 

I also doubt guilliman, the space wolves or even a returned russ would start a civil war over this, not with the imperium in this state, the SW and Russ like to play up the barbarian image but both are also loyal and highly intelligent.

[Lord Ragnarok]

If Russ returns the galaxy will be in a very dire state and petty things like chapter organization will be the furthest thing from anyone's thoughts. 

[Guest]

As I said he's walking a knife edge, you think he'll fall I do not. I think there will be small scale battles in the Terran side of the imperium, at the system or even multiple system level but nothing major. The other side of the rift will be another story, it'll probably devolve into multiple empires.

 

I don't recall him saying he was forcing the codex on all the successor's in fact all his new primaris marines already broke that codex and his new codex is unfinished and I got the impression that was a codex about good governing not organising the astarties.

 

Where did you get that information about what russ said about the successors, all the info I read says he refused to change his wolves but said nothing about successors. Indeed there was only one formed in a kind of half hearted placating attempt. Not saying your wrong, I read a lot of fluff but I'm a BA fan and haven't read any SW codex for a long time, plus I'm not fully up to date with heresy novels.

 

Anyway I'd maintain Guilliman has more than enough to worry about and is not going to do anything if the Wolfspear follow the space wolves organisation, he may force them to stay at about 1000 warriors, but that's the limit of what he may do in my opinion.

 

As to the gene seed he probably got it from the tithe all chapters submit to the mechanicus for testing. This is where the gene seed for successors normally comes from. Altering it to make primaris marines is dodgy but using it to create new chapters is well within his rights.

 

My impression is that the fenriesians were gathered just after the heresy and kept on ice. As to where new recruits will come from I've no idea, I know non fenriesians are unstable as SW. Did they explain how they made Terran space wolves.

 

I also doubt guilliman, the space wolves or even a returned russ would start a civil war over this, not with the imperium in this state, the SW and Russ like to play up the barbarian image but both are also loyal and highly intelligent.

First his new codex is finished. It is for the Astartes. There is another codex for governing being made. They are 2 seperate codexs. This was in the quote i added above.

 

Russ did not reject the second founding (I would like to see where I said this) he rejected the codex.

 

Uaing the tithe would be against the rules IIRC. As the chapter still controls the tithe and how it is used. I dont have info on this its just a fuzzy memory.

 

The current primaris are SW initiates from a long time ago. The issue is where do they get future fenrisians.

 

I doubt the SM would start a war. The issue is the planetary govener and the cult and the admech. While yes SM are made to follow orders of a primarchs these othdr factions are not. Also a SM will always follow the orders of their gene-father than another primarch. So if Guilliman said "hey BA stop using death mask" or something else ordered by Sangy, then they would follow Sangies orders. So russ stating not to follow the codex is their default order.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine.

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

Where does cawl get his geneseed from? As noted before even Cawl still requires Fenrisians to make SWs, where does he get a Fenrisian who are ruled and managed by the SW's.

 

If Cawl is given free access to these what stops Guilliman from making a 2nd successor chapter.. a 3rd.. a 100th? Soon the SW are just a shade of the over ruling SW successors who live under Guillimans thumb and codex, which goes against our gene-father.

 

Yes if the primaris will be accepted into the SWs but what as I said before its not about them coming to us, its about successor chapter being made and without our knowledge or permission. If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

High Lords of Terra didnt authorize the making of the Primaris Marines, this was all been done by Guillan. He has over ruled the High Lords and broke promises of the 500 planets of Ultramar that allowed them to rule themselves. This is foreshadowing that Guilliman will force his codex. It is even showed in the book how Guilliman is enforcing unity and uniformity among all the imperium. Non-Ultramar IG wearing Ultramar uniforms instead of their own, the 500 planets being forces back into Imperial Secundus, the want to eliminate any variations in gene-stock (especially SW and BA), etc etc.

Not sure if we are talking about the same problem here.

 

In my opinion, successors have no influence on the uniqueness of Space Wolves as a chapter. there can be 50, but that doesn't mean that the Space Wolves as a chapter change.

 

But i dont see the problem with that?

You seem to be under the impression that somehow the successor chapters to the SW will be full of GH, BC, Wolf Guard, etc, etc, when in fact they will be full of Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers. That is not a SW successor but just another Primaris UM successor painted grey.

[Hellrender]

Yeh, but so? That still does not change anything for the space wolves who will still be full of grey hunters, blood claws and long fangs. And as a successor of which we do not know the livery yet, we do not know if said successors will be grey either. After all the mortifactors are successors from the ultrmarines, but not only have vastly different livery, they also have huge cultural and doctrinal differences. Even with that as a successor (and many more) the ultramarines are still ultramarines.

 

And im going to model my primaris to have the vibe of space wolves, as they will be in the actual space wolves chapter. So grey, fur, basicly whatever my skills allow me to do. Its going to be fun..

 

 

Also @calderson. In the quote you wrotr above about the codex i only interpretate that the codex imperialis is on its way, which is about governing, but nothing about a new and updated codex astartes nor that guillman is forcing the codex on new successor chapters. Just that he formed them.

 

I also agree with whomever said that logan grimnae will move the stars to get establish a brotherhood with the wolfspear. If only to help them secure means to fight the curse of the wulfen and prevent them following the footsteps of the wolf brothers.

[Lord Blackwood]

Logan went out of his way to find and recover a Wolfbrother , not because the wolfbrother had any use but because of the ties of brotherhood to the chapter , hes going to go out of his way to form a brotherhood with the wolfspear , and I  would be shocked if he is not looking at this   as a means to  do what they couldnt before when successors were impossible. 

[Wispy]

 

 

 

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine.

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

Where does cawl get his geneseed from? As noted before even Cawl still requires Fenrisians to make SWs, where does he get a Fenrisian who are ruled and managed by the SW's.

 

If Cawl is given free access to these what stops Guilliman from making a 2nd successor chapter.. a 3rd.. a 100th? Soon the SW are just a shade of the over ruling SW successors who live under Guillimans thumb and codex, which goes against our gene-father.

 

Yes if the primaris will be accepted into the SWs but what as I said before its not about them coming to us, its about successor chapter being made and without our knowledge or permission. If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

High Lords of Terra didnt authorize the making of the Primaris Marines, this was all been done by Guillan. He has over ruled the High Lords and broke promises of the 500 planets of Ultramar that allowed them to rule themselves. This is foreshadowing that Guilliman will force his codex. It is even showed in the book how Guilliman is enforcing unity and uniformity among all the imperium. Non-Ultramar IG wearing Ultramar uniforms instead of their own, the 500 planets being forces back into Imperial Secundus, the want to eliminate any variations in gene-stock (especially SW and BA), etc etc.

Not sure if we are talking about the same problem here.

 

In my opinion, successors have no influence on the uniqueness of Space Wolves as a chapter. there can be 50, but that doesn't mean that the Space Wolves as a chapter change.

 

But i dont see the problem with that?

You seem to be under the impression that somehow the successor chapters to the SW will be full of GH, BC, Wolf Guard, etc, etc, when in fact they will be full of Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers. That is not a SW successor but just another Primaris UM successor painted grey.

Only to someone hellbent on hating primaris thinks the names on the labels is what matters.

 

Fact is we dont know what a space wolves spin to primaris will look like yet. we already know primaris space wolves use grey hunter/blood claw/long fang markings for their battle line/close assault/heavy support distinguishings.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Wispy

[Guest]

Logan went out of his way to find and recover a Wolfbrother , not because the wolfbrother had any use but because of the ties of brotherhood to the chapter , hes going to go out of his way to form a brotherhood with the wolfspear , and I  would be shocked if he is not looking at this   as a means to  do what they couldnt before when successors were impossible.

 

I hope you are right brother. I hope Logan teaches or recovers the wolfspear. I care not if they are Primaris or Adeptus. I care thaf they only be wolves and follow Russ.

[Wispy]

Had another thought: Cawl getting diverted Space Wolves aspirants like Bjarni from Fenris implies that Leman Russ was aware and supporting of the Primaris project. Because face it: Rooby and and the Mechanicum don't get raw Fenrisians without the Wolf King knowing. If Russ said no and they wanted to do it anyways, they would have just used any old human (Terran VI legion style).

 

This could coincide with the failure of the Wolf Brothers chapter, which would Leman Russ's motivation for supporting the project (what with wulfenism limiting SW viability).

Edited June 10, 2017 by Wispy

[Guest pandion40]

One interesting thing is there is no mention of turning the old astarties into the primaris, unless it's in the last two chapters I haven't read yet. We know it can be done but it isn't mentioned. It talks multiple times about the potential for resentment between the old and new, once was a primaris criticising guilliman in his head for his treatment of the older marines. Another was Guilliman setting out his plans for the new ultamar, it included provisions to prevent the growth of that resentment. But it didn't mention converting any of the old.

 

I believed before this novel that the primaris ancients were probably old marines converted to primaris to provide some experience, but one we saw in the novel was just a standard primaris.

 

I think there is an artificial separation between the old and new enforced by GW because they introduced the primaris as new units instead of upgrades of the old. This hurts the fluff as such rigid separation is unrealistic especially after over 100 years. There would be primaris tactical squads of new or enhanced old marines by now in my opinion. But that may hurt sales of the new units so I think GW is enforcing this artificial devide.

 

It will be interesting how this develops in the more divergent chapters as proper codex com out. To be honest I think their just going to staple the primaris units onto the new BA, SW and DA codex, with minimal to no blending of concepts between the different types. No primaris wolfen or death company. Maybe I'm being pessimistic.

Edited June 10, 2017 by pandion40

[Frater Cornelius]

I feel like we have two extremes colliding. On the one side we have the Injustice Superman, a dictator bent on order, and on the other one we have the highly anti-authorative Wolves. I do not think anyone is in the right. With all his planning, Guilliman could've approached it more delicately. Yes, he may be the most level-headed of all Primarchs, but that does not change that he is arrogant and has little regard anything that hinders order and efficiency.

But then again, Wolves are stubborn beyond reason. They are the anti-thesis to RG. Sometimes it is better to yield and comply, but that seems to be a last resort with the Wolves (if at all). Sometimes it is better to swallow pride for the good of all.

 

I do not think anyone can claim a moral highground in this debate. However, I can safely say that my opinion of RG has fallen considerably. Welcome to the human race. Common sense optional :D

[Wispy]

One interesting thing is there is no mention of turning the old astarties into the primaris, unless it's in the last two chapters I haven't read yet. We know it can be done but it isn't mentioned. It talks multiple times about the potential for resentment between the old and new, once was a primaris criticising guilliman in his head for his treatment of the older marines. Another was Guilliman setting out his plans for the new ultamar, it included provisions to prevent the growth of that resentment. But it didn't mention converting any of the old.

 

I believed before this novel that the primaris ancients were probably old marines converted to primaris to provide some experience, but one we saw in the novel was just a standard primaris.

 

I think there is an artificial separation between the old and new enforced by GW because they introduced the primaris as new units instead of upgrades of the old. This hurts the fluff as such rigid separation is unrealistic especially after over 100 years. There would be primaris tactical squads of new or enhanced old marines by now in my opinion. But that may hurt sales of the new units so I think GW is enforcing this artificial devide.

 

It will be interesting how this develops in the more divergent chapters as proper codex com out. To be honest I think their just going to staple the primaris units onto the new BA, SW and DA codex, with minimal to no blending of concepts between the different types. No primaris wolfen or death company. Maybe I'm being pessimistic.

 

i have seen hint that the primaris conversion is highly experimental in the setting. GW probably wants to introduce primaris first before it introduces upgraded characters.

[Valerian]

 

 

i have seen hint that the primaris conversion is highly experimental in the setting. GW probably wants to introduce primaris first before it introduces upgraded characters.

 

And there isn't much point introducing them in the setting if they don't have the models ready.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

 

But if the Wolf Spear is a successor chapter, how is guilliman enforcing his codex on the Space Wolves? What does it matter if a first founding chapter knows of a successor chapter made from their geneseed. It's the High Lords of Terra that normally decide upon such things. It doesn't happen, that some Ultramarine chapter master says one day, we need more chapters with Ultramarine geneseed, let's create the Howling Griffons.

 

And if Primaris join the space wolves, then i doubt they will follow the codex for long. As soon they enter the great companies, they will follow that structure and doctrine.

 

Whatever happens to the Wolf Spear is really rather unimportant to the Space Wolves structure and uniqueness. Just like it is unimportant what happens to the Mortifactors and the uniqueness of the Ultramarines.

Where does cawl get his geneseed from? As noted before even Cawl still requires Fenrisians to make SWs, where does he get a Fenrisian who are ruled and managed by the SW's.

 

If Cawl is given free access to these what stops Guilliman from making a 2nd successor chapter.. a 3rd.. a 100th? Soon the SW are just a shade of the over ruling SW successors who live under Guillimans thumb and codex, which goes against our gene-father.

 

Yes if the primaris will be accepted into the SWs but what as I said before its not about them coming to us, its about successor chapter being made and without our knowledge or permission. If it only took the Highlords why werent more made before with our gene tithe and without our permission.

 

High Lords of Terra didnt authorize the making of the Primaris Marines, this was all been done by Guillan. He has over ruled the High Lords and broke promises of the 500 planets of Ultramar that allowed them to rule themselves. This is foreshadowing that Guilliman will force his codex. It is even showed in the book how Guilliman is enforcing unity and uniformity among all the imperium. Non-Ultramar IG wearing Ultramar uniforms instead of their own, the 500 planets being forces back into Imperial Secundus, the want to eliminate any variations in gene-stock (especially SW and BA), etc etc.

Not sure if we are talking about the same problem here.

 

In my opinion, successors have no influence on the uniqueness of Space Wolves as a chapter. there can be 50, but that doesn't mean that the Space Wolves as a chapter change.

 

But i dont see the problem with that?

You seem to be under the impression that somehow the successor chapters to the SW will be full of GH, BC, Wolf Guard, etc, etc, when in fact they will be full of Inceptors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers. That is not a SW successor but just another Primaris UM successor painted grey.

Only to someone hellbent on hating primaris thinks the names on the labels is what matters.

 

Fact is we dont know what a space wolves spin to primaris will look like yet. we already know primaris space wolves use grey hunter/blood claw/long fang markings for their battle line/close assault/heavy support distinguishings.

 

You and others seem intent on continually misinterpreting what I post.

 

It doesn't matter what color or what markings Primaris SW have and it doesn't matter if they even have our geneseed, their very unit structures and roles do not ft within the SW style of warfare or identity.  

 

The SW geneseed, per the fluff, says that it enhances senses, increases reflexes, hardens the skin, and creates the lupine features.  The rules for SW reflect this in Rage, Counter-Attack, and Acute Senses along with the SW unit options for wargear reflect this "identity" that the SW have had since the Heresy of being an assault/counter-assault mid-range army.

 

Now where do Intercessor, Hellblasters, or Inceptors fit into this style of warfare and identity with their unit sizes and wargear options.  Explain to me how a 5 man squad with 30" ranged weapons mesh with our special rules and identity of a close combat/mid range assault army?  I mean even our Long Fangs have chainswords with a history of having come up through the ranks of fighting in close combat.  The only rumored unit so far that appears to mesh completely with the SW in both geneseed and identity are the Reivers with their stealthy close combat killiness.  Which would have been awesome as all hell had the Primaris SW that RG made only been trained as Reivers.

 

That is my whole point that continues to be channeled into this idea that I hate Primaris.  I love the models, I love the rules, but despise how GW has failed to provide believable lore on them integrating into the unique existing chapters when they do not integate into said chapters by unit design.  To me they only are believable as integrating into UM.  I also despise the visual diarrhea of the size difference between the Primaris and standard, which is an personal taste issue not a lore issue which can be fixed on my side of the table by converting all to be Primaris sized.  Of course this is only if GW can actually smooth out this integration issue which they have failed to do in my opinion.  That in turn would make my list look something more like the following;

 

Wolves:

 

HQ

Elites

Troops

Fast

Heavy

 

"Allied" Primaris UM

 

Insert whatever Primaris UM unit I feel the Wolves list is lacking.

 

This goes back to idea that the Wolves are in need of reinforcements and get them from RG in the form of Primaris UM units seconded to them.

[Karack Blackstone]

By all that I know and all I have been able to read thus far, for lack of a better term, Guilliman needs more insight into both creative and critical thinking, at this point.

 

One.does not stamp livery onto uniforms of foreign units, nor say to troops, "wear these uniforms and forget your ways," without needlessly riling and rankling neeves of those dismissed by action as inferior because their ways are different.

 

Brotherhood amongst the Astartes is forged from knowing one brother is true to himself, and another does not tell him or me* (in setting) to be false.

 

That Guilliman does not know this as a person tells me he has failed as a Primarch: my way or die does not defend humanity, standing beside one's brothers and fighting true to myself in all ways does that.

 

Not forcing loyalty and breaking trust.