Vanguard Veteran Weapon Loadouts 8th Edition

[Noxnoctis22]

Let's start with this one...

 

Thunder Hammer/Power Fist & Storm Shield

 

This combo just doesn't seem to make sense now. In 7th you'd take this combo for challenges, the SS would allow the model to live longer enough to strike back with it's TH or PF to hopefully hurt the big guy he's facing.

 

Now with 8th and always being able to select who takes a wound first you are going to tank wounds on the 3++ save from the SS, most likely causing that model to die first. So why would you stack an expensive weapon on him as well then?

 

Also with there being no "specialist weapon" rule in 8th, a TH or PF will get the same amount of attacks when paired with a Bolt Pistol, SS or otherwise.

 

Am I missing something here with my thought process? Anything to add?

 

I'd like to continue talking about other Vanguard Veteran weapon loadouts for 8th that we feel will excel.

[Mr. Poe]

Seems like the way to go will be to take the storm shields with chainswords to allocate wounds to...assuming you even take storm shields any more. 

[MajorNese]

You're correct, with 8th edition, chainsword + storm shield seems the way to go for ablative wounds. They die first, they stay cheap. Even may add a few more without any upgrades, as you can always switch between AP0 wounds on non-shield dude and AP-X on shield dude, keeping the cost down further. Vanguard with jump packs are just 18ppm (compared to 16ppm assault marines), a few more guys won't hurt (outside of morale maybe).

 

Am I missing something here with my thought process? Anything to add?

 

I'd like to continue talking about other Vanguard Veteran weapon loadouts for 8th that we feel will excel.

Power fist and thunder hammer are identical in points (at least for non-characters), and have an almost identical profile. Only difference is, the hammer always does 3 wounds, the fist does D3. If you can, take a hammer instead of a fist.

[Noxnoctis22]

 

Power fist and thunder hammer are identical in points (at least for non-characters), and have an almost identical profile. Only difference is, the hammer always does 3 wounds, the fist does D3. If you can, take a hammer instead of a fist.

 

I just made this point in a text to a buddy. I was going to add that to the post as we moved forward. TH > PF, for now...

 

Dual LCs make even more sense now with the PF/LC combo basically dead (overpriced for what you get if you take it).

[Kua]

I’d try:

A few SS+CS/BP for high pen hits, a few BP+CS for low pen hits, and the rest with the real weapons. These can be either double plasma pistol or nasty CC stuff.

[Damo1701]

I've taken an executive decision not to re-arm or re-equip any of my models.

 

Aside from being incredibly annoying, I'm hoping to still play some games in 7th edition, so my loadout will make more sense.

 

Saying that, I always went with "Cheap and Effective" in 7th, with 2 guys with dual claws, a Thunderhammer/shield combo for vehicles, Power Sword and Bolt Pistol for the economy, and the sergeant with LC/PF because I liked the combo.

 

It looks like I may end up playing more Power Level based games, over the nit-picky points games, as it should be easier and quicker to write army lists, and it allows my lists to remain fairly even and representative of what they did before.

 

I've liked using 5-man squads for my Raven Guard during 7th, and feel that, with the stupidity of the morale system now, 5-man squads are pretty much immune to battleshock.  They are going to be either there, or dead.

 

Regarding the Vanguard, I do have mine with Jump Packs, which has always proved useful in the past, and hopefully they, along with my assault marines and a bike squad, will form a fast-moving high-threat force while my back-field elements are doing their jobs of taking out high-wound-count models.

[Andrés Pacheco]

2 x 10 VVs with double plasma pistols dropping with Shrike.

 

Overcharge the lot and you'd put the hurt on any and every thing in sight (even a knight or a baneblade would be rocking from that)

 

And it looks awesome, because flying space cowboy ninjas are cool now apparently :)

[Claws and Effect]

Going fluffy.

 

5x twin claws to go with Shrike.

 

He needs his command squad.

[Andrés Pacheco]

^^

 

And a third unit of these guys because awesome

[Race Bannon]

I skimmed the leaked images but gave up on them.  So, if anyone knows, can the Combat Veteran squad get JP?  Or are the only JP options VV and Assault Squads?

[SyNidus]

I skimmed the leaked images but gave up on them. So, if anyone knows, can the Combat Veteran squad get JP? Or are the only JP options VV and Assault Squads?

Only the VV/ASM squads can get jump packs.

[Race Bannon]

There is comfort in that actually.

 

:tu:

[H311fi5h]

Let's do some math!

 

One VV with Jump Pack attacking:

 

vs T4 3+ 1W (Marine)

Chainsword 0.33 wounds -> 1.83 damage per 100 points

Power Sword 0.56 -> 2.55

Power Axe 0.59  -> 2.56

Power Maul 0.44  -> 2.00

Single Lightning Claw 0.67  -> 2.48

Double Lightning Claws 1  -> 3.23

Thunder Hammer 0.69  -> 1.82

 

vs T3 5+ (Guardsman)

Chainsword 0.89  -> 4.94

Power Sword 0.89  -> 4.05

Power Axe 0.89  -> 3.87

Power Maul 0.93  -> 4.23

Single Lightning Claw 1.19  -> 4.41

Double Lightning Claws 1.78  -> 5.74

Thunder Hammer 0.83  -> 2.18

 

vs T4 2+ 2W (Terminator)

Chainsword 0.17  -> 0.94

Power Sword 0.44  -> 2.00

Power Axe 0.44  -> 1.91

Power Maul 0.30  -> 1,36

Single Lightning Claw 0.5  -> 1.85

Double Lightning Claws 0.75  -> 2.42

Thunder Hammer 1.11  -> 2.92

 

vs T5 4+ 2W (Ork Warbiker)

Chainsword 0.33  -> 1.83

Power Sword 0.44  -> 2.00

Power Axe 0.55  -> 2.39

Power Maul 0.59  -> 2.68

Single Lightning Claw 0.62  -> 2.30

Double Lightning Claws 0.93  -> 3.00

Thunder Hammer 1.33  -> 3.50

 

vs T7 3+ (Rhino, Chimera etc)

Chainsword 0.22  -> 1.22

Power Sword 0.37  -> 1.68

Power Axe 0.30  -> 1.30

Power Maul 0.22  -> 1.00

Single Lightning Claw 0.49  -> 1.81

Double Lightning Claws 0.74  -> 2.39

Thunder Hammer 1.67  -> 4.39

 

vs T8 3+ (Baneblade, Leman Russ, Wraith Knight)

Chainsword 0.11  -> 0.61

Power Sword 0.19  -> 0.86

Power Axe 0.3  ->  1.30

Power Maul 0.22  -> 1.00

Single Lightning Claw 0.27  -> 1.00

Double Lightning Claws 0.41  -> 1.32

Thunder Hammer 1.25  -> 3.29

 

 

So what can we observe? 

Thunder Hammers are amazing against multi-wound targets, but drop behind Chainsword efficiency against single wound targets. No surprise there. I would probably try to specialize since VV with Jump Packs can choose their enemies most of the time.

 

Double Lightning Claws win against single wound targets. However they use both hand so you lose the pistol/shield option.

It's a bit difficult to calculate the exact value of a pistol compared to a close combat weapon since you will probably use the pistol less often, but it's hard to say how often exactly.

Assuming you use the pistol and close combat weapon equally (best case), we get this:

 

Bolt Pistol & Lightning Claw vs MEQ: 0.67 + 0.11 = 0.78. That is 2.89 damage per 100 points. Still way below 3.23 for double LC.

Bolt Pistol & Lightning Claw vs GEQ: 1.19 + 0.30 = 1.49. 5.50 vs 5.74. Pistol still not worth it.

 

Plasma Pistol & Lightning Claw vs MEQ: 0.67 + 0.37 = 1.04. 3.06 vs 3.23. Closer but still worse.

Plasma Pistol & Lightning Claw vs GEQ: 1.19 + 0.56 = 1.75. 4.59 vs 5.74. Nope, not worth it.

 

So even under ideal circumstances a pistol cannot beat the double Lightning Claws. They are absolute king vs. single wound targets. However Plasma Pistols are pretty good if you take a one-handed CC weapon and go for high value targets (T4 4+ an better).

 

 

tl:dr

vs single wound enemies take double Lightning Claws, they are absolutely amazing. 

vs vehicles, monsters and other multi wound targets like Terminators, Bikers, Primaris etc. Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol is the ideal loadout.

Edited June 10, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Noxnoctis22]

Thanks for the math and analysis.

 

I'm definitely going to rock a 5-man 2x LC squad, RG after all.

 

The TH/Plasma Pistol is a nice combo, not too pricey for what you get out of it. Might throw so SS in there too to tank those heavy hitters a squad like that may face.

[duz_]

So now I've got my fancy new RG storm shields on the way I am trying to decide load out.

Originally I was thinking BP / PP + SS, however I'm now starting to wonder if Chainsword + SS might be an option too? They get the +1 attack, they aren't really a shooting unit, plus from what I've heard you don't often get a chance to shoot your pistol in CC anyways. 

[Mr. Poe]

I'd take the CS / SS combo. Pistol with SS sound good in theory but usually the SS guy is the one you are taking your saves on so he's usually the first to die. Seems like a shame to lose a PP like that. 

[H311fi5h]

I'd go with a unit of 10 all armed with double LC. Deep Strike 9", use a Librarian with Veil of Time to make sure they get their charge, and defend yourself by killing more enemies first.

Alternatively, hide them out of sight for a counter-assault. If you're standing in the open no amount of Storm Shields will save you. With 1 wound and 3+ it's bolt guns, lasguns, and pulse rifles that you have to be afraid of.

For the TH/PP units you could consider some SS/CS meat shields I suppose. But realistically, your best defense with VV is not getting shot at, and killing everything in CC before they strike back.

[Mr. Poe]

Not getting shot is obviously the goal but it's usually unavoidable. Even with the reroll to charge you will fail those charges most of the time. 

 

Even assuming you do make it into CC being able to dump the power weapon attacks on the SS is not a bad deal. And you will get hit back even if you got the charged. There seems to be a lot of ways to interrupt the activation sequence. The 2 CP counter-offensive stratagem comes to mind.  

[H311fi5h]

That's the issue with VV. You really don't want to fight anything you can't kill in one round of combat. Even just a mob of 30 ork boyz will cut you to pieces. But with jump packs you can stay in LOS cover and still have a high threat range. And you can pick your fights more often than not. Which is why I would focus fully on offense, doing as much damage as possible with the twin LC's in one round (and choose them as your first fighting unit). Once they lose momentum you're gonna have a problem either way.

For being able to hold the line and stay in a prolonged fight I'd look into other units, maybe Terminators with a nearby Apothecary.

[mertbl]

A unit of grav and plasma pistols might be fun for laughs.

 

I'm going to stick with my 7th ed list right now. I almost have them painted so I'm kinda attached. Fists, lightning claws and storm shields. The load out might be ineffective but it's only like 3 points more in 8th than it was in 7th.

[GreyCrow]

This edition and the wound allocation mechanics is totally great for Vanguard with mixed loadouts !

 

Still keeping the triple Claw Pairs and the 2 TH/SS for 5 guys, it's a very flexible squad for melee support!

 

Gunslinging Vets are a serious proposition now though!

[Claws and Effect]

My loadout isn't changing much.

 

Sarge with relic blade/shield, PF/shield, axe/shield, 2 dual claws.

 

I'm also doing a couple more twin claws guys to either add to the squad or swap in.

[KGatch113]

Has anyone gotten any experience with loadouts yet? I just found about 25 guys I can customize to go with the 30-40 guys with power weapons (lolz)

[Mr. Poe]

I have found that 2 x LC with Shrike nearby is brutal. Really really brutal. I'm modelling the sergeants of my squads with TH/SS for a little more punch vs. armor but haven't tried it out yet. 

[duz_]

I started working on my VV's last night, managed to finish their legs, torso and jump packs.

Next step load outs! :D

Having thought about it and re-reading the great weapon profile stats H3llfish did above I think I've decided upon

2x SSheild + PSword

2x Pfist + BPistol (since theres no +1 for PF + LC)

1x SSheild + THammer

 

Yes I know that the numbers and points for PF vs TH make PF the better option for non-character models. However I suspect that will change at some point, as given the change in profiles D:3 vs D:D3 the PFist should be cheaper. So I'm gonna go that way, worse case scenario that's an easy job for a hobby knife to fix ;)

Also I don't feel like magentising these and I'm more than happy to buy another box of VV's ;)

 

These guys will be joining my existing VV squad of 4x Dual LC's + TH/SS Sgt, I can either mix and match and have 2 squads, or run 1 large one.

I will also be using my new "RG" storm shields from Plokoone :)