Long Fangs in 8th

[Hear da Lamentation]

In 5th edition I loved my long fangs. But 6th and 7th taught me differently. I distinctly remember the end of my LF. It was when my main opponent started using Flyrants or a Hell Chicken. They got vapourised turn 1 every game.

 

So ... in 8th .. with scatter proof deep strike and assault same turn ... are they really viable again?

 

I understand target saturation but they are such a big target ...

 

What does the Fang think?

 

HDL

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I think a source of lascannons is essential in a competitive list to handle monstrous creatures and super heavies. Whether those lascannons come from long fangs or predators is still up for debate. The "To Hit" bonus of the long fangs is pretty nice though and I think you can somewhat mitigate deep strike through deployment.

[Yoyo ninja]

My first game will contain fangs and a pred to see what performs best. I think being able to Pod fangs to an advantage point on the board with very little negatives for the turn they come in is a real bonus. I have mentioned in another thread that I love the idea of two units of fangs loaded up with multi meltas podding in your opponents face and let them reek havoc. Sure they will probably disappear quickly if completely unsupported, but if you have another couple of units podding in or charging across the table, I think your opponent will have to make some serious choices.

[Hear da Lamentation]

That's the thing isn't it. You have to have other very strong targets in their face. Personally I don't think the multi melta option is the way to go, probably better with termies and Combi meltas for that.

 

But they may well have a back field, long range role.

 

Lots of points though ...

[MeatGrinder]

Mobile heavy weapons is huge. Drop podding fangs with multimeltas will be insane. Even at 9" away you're still within half range.

 

Also being able to add a wolf guard with cyclone will be pretty good, both for eating damage with his invul and 2 wounds and pumping more shots out.

[Garreck]

I think deploying them in a razorback makes some sense. The razorback represents better value as a delivery system than drop pods in terms of overall utility, and would mitigate the deepstrike threat.

 

Move and shoot with your razorback in coordination with the rest of your army, preferably towards some position of advantage that you can disembark at turn 2. Turn 2 pop out and ruin your first target, turn 3 make whatever movement necessary to improve your vantage point (up one level in a structure for instance) and fire again. The penalty for movement is greatly reduced plus we get some manner of reroll, so moving and shooting just makes sense.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I think a source of lascannons is essential in a competitive list to handle monstrous creatures and super heavies. Whether those lascannons come from long fangs or predators is still up for debate. The "To Hit" bonus of the long fangs is pretty nice though and I think you can somewhat mitigate deep strike through deployment.

 

I think Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas are going to have a greater impact IMO than Lascannons. Now that we no longer require Logan for a Long Fangs bomb and since we can have 2 units of LFs in the same pod I'm really considering loading one up with 1x4 MM and 1x4 PC. If you really need to put the hurting on something -1BS can be mitigated a little bit via command point re-rolls. 

 

Garreck, why do Long Fangs need to operate in a back field defensive role? Drop Pods give a lot more offensive power to LFs than they previously had. 

[Hear da Lamentation]

Back field for me because otherwise they'll get shot and assaulted to oblivion the round after they turn up and that's a lot of points to lose for one round of shooting,

 

That's my feeling at the moment ....

 

HDL

[Yoyo ninja]

The way or read the rules on Pod assault, and all deep strike type deployment in general, you can choose when your pods come in.

Another potential for a pod full of fangs could be holding them back till turn two. Have them turn up just before your charge and soften up heavy targets.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Back field for me because otherwise they'll get shot and assaulted to oblivion the round after they turn up and that's a lot of points to lose for one round of shooting,

 

That's my feeling at the moment ....

 

HDL

I'm pretty sure I remember you responding to my thread about Drop Pods. I do agree that by themselves LFs are too much of a threat to be ignored if they are dropped by themselves. However if they are dropped in with a bunch of other threats I wouldn't be surprised to see them make it through a turn. The key is to have them come in with assault units as well... then assault whatever is threatening the LFs so they can't be shot. Terminators would go a long way to support Pod'd LFs as well. 

[Garreck]

Garreck, why do Long Fangs need to operate in a back field defensive role? Drop Pods give a lot more offensive power to LFs than they previously had. 

 

Oh, I don't believe Long Fangs need to languish in the backfield. I'm proposing that razorbacks are a better delivery system than drop pods because of their superior utility for cost.  If your longfangs are riding in a razorback for a turn, the deepstrike threat to them is mitigated, and you can move them to a position of advantage somewhere mid-field and have them shooting turn two.  Meanwhile, the razorback itself provides way better firepower and game-lasting utility over the drop pod that arrives and just sits there plinking at things with a storm bolter.  And oh by the way, a razorback with, say, a twin linked assault cannon (Heavy 12, strength 6, AP -1) actually weighs in less than a drop pod.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Garreck, why do Long Fangs need to operate in a back field defensive role? Drop Pods give a lot more offensive power to LFs than they previously had. 

 

Oh, I don't believe Long Fangs need to languish in the backfield. I'm proposing that razorbacks are a better delivery system than drop pods because of their superior utility for cost.  If your longfangs are riding in a razorback for a turn, the deepstrike threat to them is mitigated, and you can move them to a position of advantage somewhere mid-field and have them shooting turn two.  Meanwhile, the razorback itself provides way better firepower and game-lasting utility over the drop pod that arrives and just sits there plinking at things with a storm bolter.  And oh by the way, a razorback with, say, a twin linked assault cannon (Heavy 12, strength 6, AP -1) actually weighs in less than a drop pod.

 

 

Oh no, trust me, I am not pleased at all about the price hike to my Drop Pods :(

 

Sadly, I feel like this edition isn't going to give much benefit to ML Long Fangs in comparison to some of the other weapons like Lascannons and Multi-Meltas. Krak missiles changing to -2 AP was a really really bad move on GWs part. I hate how these past 2 editions have made me want to remodel so many of my units. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

One of the things I'm going to experiment on is different deepstriking Long Fang loadouts, in particular Heavy Bolter and Plasmas. See how effective they are against hordes or even MEQ. for once, let the Long Fangs distract the enemy while the GH and BCs rush forward or claim objectives.

 

A bit unusual fluff wise though, as they're supposed to be valued enough to wield heavy weapons in the back to support their brothers, not be the alpha strike themselves. But oh well, it's a new edition, both fluffwise and crunchwise.

[Stancer]

I believe you are far overestimating the usefulness of a drop pod on the opening turns now. They still abide by the requirement to be placed >9" away from any enemy models.

 

So imagine  a circle 18" in diameter around every one of your opponents models during deployment. Without much effort, even the smallest of forces can be spread to deny you any drop podding/teleporting into their deployment zone. If facing guard or orks, dont expect to be deepstriking ANYTHING onto your opponents side. I can COMPLETELY cover  a 1x6ft strip of deployment zone with a single 50 man guard conscript unit. oh and guess what, any characters anywhere in among those conscripts buff the entire unit. (yes really).

This just leaves you to pod into the mid field where your fangs will be rained on in the enemy shooting phase and deleted. As another posted stated, kitted out Long fangs are too many points and too valuable a unit to blow as a suicide unit, which is effectively what podding them will be. I'm in agreement that its better to have them in a razorback pushing 12" up into midfield or at the back as long range support. Remember they will also be denying a 9" deep strike radius around themselves in the backfield plus be in some cover.

 

DEFINITELY Magnetise your long fangs! one squad fits all occasions....

 

 

 

[Ulrin]

Mobile heavy weapons is huge. Drop podding fangs with multimeltas will be insane. Even at 9" away you're still within half range.

 

Also being able to add a wolf guard with cyclone will be pretty good, both for eating damage with his invul and 2 wounds and pumping more shots out.

Terminators can't go in pods anymore, can they? Personally a bit annoyed we have the option of sprinkling terminators into squads, but it severely limiting their delivery methods now that pods are out.

 

With the cost of pods, the limit on deep strike amount, and the 'can't deepstrike here' bubbles your opponent can create, I think I'm also partial to using Fangs in Razorbacks. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Looks like the Terminator Pack Leaders will only be feasible if using a Storm Wolf or Land Raider as delivery system for either Grey Hunters or Blood Claws. A bit costly but it's an option.

 

On the other hand, with the big increase in costs of transports, more armies may be footslogging, so for us to footslog ourselves won't be so bad, especially if we use the terminator to tank. But as I've asked in another thread, can you still put the terminator in front and use his superior armour save and invuln for tanking duty?

[Yoyo ninja]

You don't need to put him in front to tank, you can put any wounds on who ever you like in the unit. Only problem is that once a model starts taking wounds, it has to keep taking wounds till it runs out. You can't spread wounds about like we used to by repositioning models in a unit.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

You don't need to put him in front to tank, you can put any wounds on who ever you like in the unit. Only problem is that once a model starts taking wounds, it has to keep taking wounds till it runs out. You can't spread wounds about like we used to by repositioning models in a unit.

Fortunately anything you'd have to "keep shooting" will get increasingly worse the more wounds it loses. So if it isn't out right killed after one volley I think it'll still turn out as a success.

 

One of the things I'm going to experiment on is different deepstriking Long Fang loadouts, in particular Heavy Bolter and Plasmas. See how effective they are against hordes or even MEQ. for once, let the Long Fangs distract the enemy while the GH and BCs rush forward or claim objectives.

 

A bit unusual fluff wise though, as they're supposed to be valued enough to wield heavy weapons in the back to support their brothers, not be the alpha strike themselves. But oh well, it's a new edition, both fluffwise and crunchwise.

I was considering the Heavy Bolter vs the Plasma Cannon and the Plasma Cannon comes out on top every time.

[Toasterfree]

there is 0 point to run las cannons at all on marines in 8th. missiles are the same cost, and when firing krak 1 less AP and the still usual 1 less S. But the ability to take out horde armies with it make the the go to weapon

[Stancer]

there is 0 point to run las cannons at all on marines in 8th. missiles are the same cost, and when firing krak 1 less AP and the still usual 1 less S. But the ability to take out horde armies with it make the the go to weapon

 

I would say its the complete opposite. More than ever, the missile launcher is the "Jack of all trades, master of none"

 

The reason we took ML's on long fangs in edition 5-7 was because they were cheaper and were Str8 AP3. Thats all gone.

For anti horde, the heavy bolter is now cheaper and more reliable and viable choice and the plasma cannon both fulfils anti- armour and heavy infantry threat.

 

Now that an ML is the same cost as a lascannon, hmmm... lascannon every time. Although, compare a long fang squad to a predator annihilator spec:

5 Long fags, 4x Lascannons  175pts 5W T4 3+

Predator, 4x Lascannons 202pts 11W T7 3+

 

The Predator is the more robust and better value

[Hellrender]

But a predator is more vulnerable to said squad of long fangs ;)

 

Long fangs can hide on higher floors in buildings and better utilize cover.

 

Predators dont do any of that.

[ORKILL]

Bjorn and Longfangs FTW. I'm running 2 packs of 3 LC 3 ML, Pack Leader with a combi-flamer, and WGPL TDA with Missiles. LFs receive the +1 bonus to hit and Bjorn allows them re-roll of one to hit. If they get charged Bjorn steps in to assist. also give Bjorn the Twin LC.

[Toasterfree]

you either get d6 shots or 1 shot. with a las cannon you get 1 shot. a unit of 5 will kill 5 models. missles can kill A LOT MORE. they are still better. horde armies are going to come back like crazy and if you are stocked up on las cannons you are going to miss a lot of punch and ability to take them out unless you stock up on storm botlers (now that they are rapid fire) flamers, auto and assault cannons and the like. You are missing out on another opportunity to take out and thin out hordes. ive already seen reports of orks over whelming people who have built mostly las cannons. its not the opposite, its still the same.

[Stancer]

I agree that with ML you get the additional tool in the box to frag horde armies but how reliably? The randomness of rolling for shots is a worry. plus guard will still be saving on 5+, gaunts and boyz on 6+. that's before their potential +1 save for cover.

 

Long fangs are there for hard hitting ranged punch. anti horde is where the rest of your army comes into play.

 

in the thread discussing thunderwolves in 8th, it has already been argued that their role has changed to an anti infantry unit

 

Consider a land raider crusader. its an infantry mulching machine. With extra storm bolter, within 12" it pumps out 28 bolter shots and 12 twin AC shots and then it unloads your claws, hunters or wulfen with all their shooting and assault.

Plus a few razorbacks with twin AC  in your list and your golden

[Toasterfree]

same could be done with long fangs. you take ML on them, give them the now uber expensive vehicles (btw you are going to see less of these) then you can mulch anything. over a large sample of games you are going to average out 3 or 4 shots per missile. that's enough to chunk out lots of models on a horde. yes, thunderwolves are no longer the kill everything that they used to be, but they still are very good. same with wulfen. now you are tossing around infinite point ideas, and I can still circle back to the advantages of missile launches over las cannons.