H311fi5h Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 So as you probably know by now in 8th the army finishing deployment first gets first turn. This is pretty significant for the Astra Militarum, because we will have the higher number of units against most armies. I have spied a little on the army lists posted in other subforums, and they tend to be around 8-15 units for 1500-2000 points. So my first instinct was to simply accept the fact that AM will never go first, and build my list around that. I would always bring a Brigade, and maybe even one or two addition detachments. The 2000 point list that I've prepared for my first game of 8th features 31 units! The idea is I can deploy cheap mortar squads and deep strike blocking infantry until my opponent is done with his full deployment, and only then start rolling out the significant parts of my army. This way I could optimize deployment for going second, with bubble wrap everywhere, and the big guns in optimal positions. But now I'm thinking, could you make a list for AM that reliably goes first to get an additional shooting phase? The list would revolve around transports for all the little units, to get below 10 "packages". The Chimera and Valkyrie hold 12 men, so that is a Commissar, CC, and full squad, or multiple SWS, CS etc. You could still have the numbers by playing 2 or 3 large 50 men conscript blobs, while everything else starts in transports. And of course there is the Stormlord, which could hold all the heavy weapons. Here is just a quick example for a list with only 8 deployment steps at 2000 points, giving you a good chance to get first turn (unless seized) +++ New Roster (WH40k 8th) [1997 Pts] +++++ Battalion (Astra Militarum) +++ Troops +Conscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, LasgunConscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, LasgunConscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, Lasgun+ Elites +Commissar: Plasma Pistol, Power SwordCommissar: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword+ HQ +Company Commander: Frag Grenade, Plasma Pistol, Power SwordCompany Commander: Frag Grenade, Plasma Pistol, Power SwordCompany Commander: Frag Grenade, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword+ Dedicated Transport +Chimera: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm BolterChimera: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm BolterChimera: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile, Storm Bolter++ Vanguard (Astra Militarum) +++ Elites +Command Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunSpecial Weapons Squad: 3x Flamer, Frag Grenade, 3x LasgunSpecial Weapons Squad: 3x Flamer, Frag Grenade, 3x LasgunSpecial Weapons Squad: 3x Flamer, Frag Grenade, 3x Lasgun+ HQ +Lord Commissar: Plasma Pistol, Power FistTank Commander: Heavy Stubber, Hunter-Killer Missile, Lascannon, Punisher Gatling CannonHeavy Bolter Sponsons: 2x Heavy Bolter+ Heavy Support +Leman Russ DemolishersLeman Russ DM: Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Stubber, LascannonPlasma Cannon Sponsons: 2x Plasma CannonLeman Russ DM: Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Stubber, LascannonPlasma Cannon Sponsons: 2x Plasma Cannon It's not supposed to be a well thought out list or anything, just a quick example showing how much stuff you can squeeze into such a list. If you own a Stormlord, things get even better with tons of Mortar and Lascannon teams shooting from the back. If this works, it could be devastating for armies that can do first turn charges, such as Tyranids. In addition, your opponent might just assume he will go first seeing your 180+ models, but will look really dumb when he realizes (hopefully too late) that he isn't. What do you guys think? Which is the better option? Tons of units to stretch out deployment assuming you will always go second, or trying to squeeze things down to get the extra shooting? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I hadn't read this yet and I don't like the mechanic, a "real life" concern shouldn't impact the game. When I'm setting up my army - Guard or not - I don't want it to be a race. I want to enjoy the game not feel compelled to rush. Should you stall for time if you want second turn? Seems rather odd. Looks to me a case of organising with your opponent, I think I'd prefer to simply roll off as before so I'll see what my regular group says. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
H311fi5h Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 I'm not really sure we're talking about the same thing. The Mission rules for 8th state that players alternate deploying one unit at a time, and the player setting up his last unit first gets to choose who goes first. So with a normal AM list with 20+ units, you will never go first against Space Marines, or any other somewhat elite army. If you want a chance at first turn, you'll have to go sub 10 units. Some armies may be as low as 6 or 7 (a transport holding multiple units counts as one deployment step for this purpose). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beams Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I think you each deploy one unit at a time, switching off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
H311fi5h Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 An even more compressed list with a Stormlord, down to 6 units on deployment. The CC's, Commissars and all the Heavy Weapon Squads start in the Stormlord. Exactly 40 models. The 6 CS's go into the two Chimeras. Only the 3 Conscript blobs and the 3 vehicles have to be deployed. This should beat even elite armies. +++ New Roster (WH40k 8th) [2000 Pts] +++++ Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Astra Militarum) +++ Lord of War +Stormlord: Adamnatium Tracks, 2x Heavy Stubber, Twin Heavy Bolter, Vulcan Mega BolterSponson Pair: 2x Lascannon, 2x Twin Heavy BolterSponson Pair: 2x Lascannon, 2x Twin Heavy Bolter++ Battalion (Astra Militarum) +++ Troops +Conscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, LasgunConscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, LasgunConscripts: 30x Additional Conscripts, Frag Grenade, Lasgun+ Elites +Command Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma GunCommand Squad: Frag Grenade, 4x Plasma Gun+ HQ +Company Commander: Chainsword, Frag Grenade, LaspistolCompany Commander: Chainsword, Frag Grenade, Laspistol+ Dedicated Transport +Chimera: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Storm BolterChimera: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter++ Spearhead (Astra Militarum) +++ Elites +Commissar: Bolt Pistol+ HQ +Lord Commissar: Bolt Pistol, Power Sword+ Heavy Support +Heavy Weapons Squad: Frag Grenade, 3x Lascannon, LasgunHeavy Weapons Squad: Frag Grenade, 3x Lascannon, LasgunHeavy Weapons Squad: 3x Autocannon, Frag Grenade, LasgunHeavy Weapons Squad: Frag Grenade, Lasgun, 3x MortarHeavy Weapons Squad: Frag Grenade, Lasgun, 3x MortarHeavy Weapons Squad: Frag Grenade, Lasgun, 3x Mortar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 That makes more sense, does it include embarked units? Horde armies had enough trouble in 7th so I'm not keen on suffering for it in 8th too but we'll have to see how it goes. Maybe you can take advantage of getting to place a few of your units at once without a "counter", but seems small consolation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
H311fi5h Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 When you set up a transport you declare which units start embarked, so that is only one deployment step, no matter how many units are inside. Note that you also have to set up each unit one at a time if you keep it in "deep strike" reserve. Being able to manipulate this may become a relevant tactic. But of course you can also run the opposite strategy, preparing to go second, bringing a lot of unimportant canon fodder units to stretch out deployment so you see all of your enemy's army before you start setting up the main parts of your army (which has the side effect of generating more CP's). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Proof will be in the pudding, but it'll definitely be something to consider when list building. Perhaps going all out on units is a clever counter, you're going to lose out anyway so may as well go the whole hog :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorakitai Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 It's quite possible, in fact quite probable, that an infantry guard army will have more characters or more infantry squads alone than most armies it might face have units. That should make it pretty easy to deploy nothing of importance until an adversary is fully deployed. Sure, you'll never get first turn, but the ability to almost fully counter deploy is a significant advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Very well put. I've always been in the mindset that Imperial guard win the game in the deployment phase prior to the game even starting. This thinking more comes from 3rd edition when the only time guard moved was the last turn of the game to claim objectives. It will be interesting to see if we can weather the first turn assaults that will be prevalent by multiple factions now. Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4777711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothical Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Transports really are the key, or planning around going second (risky in the age for first-turn charges but the reward is on-table firepower turn 1). Both strategies can work so it really will be down to how you feel most comfortable playing. You can of course go bonkers crazy and take 2 Baneblades, 1 Stormlord and put the rest of your points into infantry and mount them in the Stormlord. The tanks will be doing most of the work and you've already spent over 1700 points so 40 transport slots for screening infantry should be plenty; you can always take 2 Stormlords and 1 Baneblade if you want more troops available. Should be able to out-deploy anything in the game, but it is gimmicky (and probably not the best list either - Knights will tear it apart if they get through the firepower and Turn 1 Drop-Pod/Deepstrike/Infiltrate etc. could mess up your day). ++Edit++ It's quite possible, in fact quite probable, that an infantry guard army will have more characters or more infantry squads alone than most armies it might face have units. That should make it pretty easy to deploy nothing of importance until an adversary is fully deployed. Sure, you'll never get first turn, but the ability to almost fully counter deploy is a significant advantage. In addition to this great advice, bear in mind that you can deploy anything, in any order. This means that you can put single 10-man Infantry Squads along the front of your deployment zone as skirmishers and jamming units whilst your opponent is forced to deploy the meat of their list, meaning that not only do you develop your defence in depth that is important for avoiding crushing first-turn charges, but you also gain the counter-deployment with your heavy weapons/vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334497-getting-first-turn/#findComment-4778112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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