8th Edition Arsenal

[Firepower]

So this seemed a bit too specific and complex to just lay out in the 8th edition hype threads already existing, so here's a new thread.  

 

For the sake of simplicity and focus, I'm keeping the options limited to infantry toys.

 

How do weapons stack up against each other in this new edition-

 

If a hammer and a fist are the same price, why take a fist?  

 

Is a fist the best choice over a power weapon?

 

What're the ideal power weapons?  Is there a stand out choice, or are they all situational?

 

What're the best special weapons?  Is there one that does everything well but masters at nothing?  I see a lot of plasma floating around in lists.  Is grav still a must-have?  Flamers?  So many options!

 

What're the best heavy weapons all around, or for specific tasks, i.e. crowd control or anti-armor?

 

Are there weapons that used to be a must which are now rather 'meh,' and are there old 'meh' toys that sit on top of the heap now?  Power fists by popular opinion seem to fit the latter category.

 

Are bolters useful now that we can shoot and charge?  Where do you put them?

 

And of course, let's all remember that 'best' is still opinion, but numbers and experience and such add weight to those opinions

Edited June 9, 2017 by Firepower

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

IIRC from other threads, the non-hammer/fist power weapons are all pretty much equal (differences being several decimal points) and only outshine one another in very specific circumstances. A heavy bolter in a tac squad is not as effective as either a MM or Lascannon, and assault weapons should either be melta or plasma and if you have access to re-roll aura, plas pistol, plas gun, plas cannon on overcharge is the best option.

[Marshal Arthur]

Most people seem to believe the axe is the best power weapon choice due to its strength boost and the way strength vs. toughness works. I think if one is using Helbrecht the sword is the best option for units in his bubble. You essentially get an AP-3 weapon hitting at strength 5. While you'd get strength 6 attacks with the axe and Helbrecht most infantry targets are toughness 4 or 3 so it really only helps marginally against toughness 3 targets, and vehicles seem to hover around toughness 7 and 8 so strength 5 and 6 both wound on 3s. As for everything else I have no clue.

[BitsHammer]

Hammers are the best (and most expensive) weapon for melee in terms of damage output, but if you want to save points then the regular ones are worth looking at.

 

Characters spend more for Hammers so fists might be a better option there for sake of cost.

 

As for the normal power weapons it depends what you're using them in conjunction with. A choppy unit of Sword Brethren (using Company Vets) next to Helbrecht do well with Swords as they're S5 and -3AP, but if you're not hanging out next to him then Axes look good as the wider wounding on 3+ helps offset the armour save,

 

Grav still looks good against MEQ, TEQ and vehicles in terms of damage, but S5 means it won't wound higher toughness as well. Plasma is a better all rounder than it used to be and if you can reroll 1s you have a much smaller chance of dying to overheating Overcharge shots.

 

Melta is weaker at inflicting wounds but does more consistent damage when it wounds.

 

Heavy Bolters and Grav Cannons both look like they can do crowd control well depending on how close you exoect to be (36" vs 24" range). Plasma Cannons look better at targetting big things for multiple hits, or for targetting TEQs.

 

Bolters are more useful, but chainswords give us extra attacks, hence I'm personally mixing both into my squads.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

[...]A heavy bolter in a tac squad is not as effective as either a MM or Lascannon, [...]

 

That is incorrect if you are shooting at multiple one wound models. Damage in 40k won't spill over like it does in AoS and one can sadly still kill witches and xenos only once. So a Hvy Bolter has its place in crowd control for volume of fire.

 

I think melta in general lost a lot of its value, considering its price and short range compared to lascannons. Grav is far more niche, being S5 and thus unreliable against vehicles and monsters with T6+.

Flamers will still be king for short range units with bad BS or bubblewrap units like guardsmen.

My goto will be Plasma. The choice in modes allows for it to be a portable missile launcher at risk, volume of fire is okay and ap is always nice. Also works against targets in cover these days, as that only improves the save. Which the ap negates. Dead witch :D

 

For melee weapons, yes, fists are almost always better that power weapons. But the latter are a steal in points if memory serves. I will mathhammer these things once i hold the actual thing in my hand, did a short version on the power weapons (wounds per hit varied between 0.29 and 0.33, depending on weapon/target, iirc)

 

Finally for heavy weapons choice will depend on the use of the squad. When on the move, guns might be too expensive outside the occasional heavy bolter. Thanks to splitfire devastators might actually round out whatever your list is lackng in firepower. Maybe even one of each :D Again, i will mathhammer these things once i got the book.

[BitsHammer]

I feel like Grav might have a place against hordes since it's four shots at S5 and -3AP for the trade off of being 12" shorter range than the Heavy Bolter. Extra shot and anything with a 4+ or worse dies on taking a wound. It won't impress against tanks, but that,s what Lascannons and Missile Launchers are for.

[Firepower]

How do lightning claws do?  Easy to overlook those when talking about Fists/Hammers/Power weapons.  They skirt the edges between expensive and economic when taken as a pair.  Do you get an extra attack for taking them as a pair?

 

On special weapons, I largely lean towards the flamer, because it's cheap and I still don't look at Crusader Squads as shooty units in need of properly 'powerful' guns.  It may surprise you all that I'm a rather stubborn soul like that...

 

What heavy weapons would you take in a squad intended for up close stabby whacky smashy jobs?  Is it worth losing a power weapon to include a multi-melta for that pre-charge liquefying pew pew?

 

Also, combi-weapons for units like Veterans?  What sort of situation would you stick them on a Crusader Squad's Sword Brother?  The same question goes for special pistols, and whether they're worth the price now.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Firepower

[BitsHammer]

Lightning claws take the weaknesses of Swords and Axes (S: User, -2AP) but get rerolls to wound. Taking a pair gives you an extra attack.

 

Personally I am leaning towards a Heavy Bolter as the economical support weapon, but if you have a little more wiggle room Grav Cannons run 28pts each and for the range Templars run in are a straight upgrade against most things you'd charge Templars at.

 

Sternguard can run up to 10 models with all combis, or half combis and half special issue bolters for the best set ups. Or 10 Special Issue Bolters for putting out a lot of -2AP Bolter shots with a max range of 30". Combis are more about what you fit than whatthe internet says is good. Plasma is the all rounder option though and is freaking amazing compared to before. Basically standard plasma shots we've always had for no overheating, or you can bump to S8 and 2 DMG at the risk of yourguys. Basically it doesn't put out a massive amound of damage, nor does it have insanely high number of shots, but it can wound most thing in the game. Plus it's cheaper than melta.

 

Crackin armour basically comes down to lascannons, missile launchers or the Vindicator since they have a high strength paired with solid amount of damage.

 

And Plasma pistols are basically 12" range, 1 shot plasma guns. They are an amazing way to spend 7 points.

[Gendo]

As someone mentioned in another thread, due to the range of Meltas and more so Flamers dedicated squads are pretty much on a suicide mission and you better have the first round of shooting.

 

Won't field Flamers because I already have Chainswords aimed at the same target "audience" and because of range they won't be able to find a target before i charge in.

 

At 4pts each I rather take a couple of Swords/Axes just in case, also a Plasma Pistol at 7pts,  Fists/Hammers only if my target it's Elites or Vehicles. 

 

That leaves me with Lascannons, not as many shots but i can sit back and possibly fire on multiple turns, in the form of a LasPredator or a Las squad with las razorback with the added benefit of the bolters in case someone wants to get close and pop it. 

 

For that purpose IG (fluffy option) has cheap Lascannons, a squad of 3 it's 72 points, shooting twice. 

They have BS4+ but with a Company Commander at 30pts they get 2 orders each turn, ideally reroll any 1s for hits and wounds.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Gendo

[Firepower]

Hm a Sword Brother leading Crusader Squads with a mix and match, like P Pistol and an Axe/Maul/Sword or maybe a Lightning Claw?  Cheaper than a Fist or Hammer, but how do they stack up against one another?  Getting dangerously close to Mathhammer time here :teehee:

 

Or would it be better to eschew pistols in favor of combis?  Much of this comes down to points it seems.  By dropping the price pretty much across the board on the infantry arsenal, these choices get much harder. 

[Kontakt]

As someone mentioned in another thread, due to the range of Meltas and more so Flamers dedicated squads are pretty much on a suicide mission and you better have the first round of shooting.

 

Won't field Flamers because I already have Chainswords aimed at the same target "audience" and because of range they won't be able to find a target before i charge in.

 

At 4pts each I rather take a couple of Swords/Axes just in case, also a Plasma Pistol at 7pts,  Fists/Hammers only if my target it's Elites or Vehicles. 

 

That leaves me with Lascannons, not as many shots but i can sit back and possibly fire on multiple turns, in the form of a LasPredator or a Las squad with las razorback with the added benefit of the bolters in case someone wants to get close and pop it. 

 

For that purpose IG (fluffy option) has cheap Lascannons, a squad of 3 it's 72 points, shooting twice. 

They have BS4+ but with a Company Commander at 30pts they get 2 orders each turn, ideally reroll any 1s for hits and wounds.

I do believe you can only give 1 order to each squad per turn.

[Gendo]

 

As someone mentioned in another thread, due to the range of Meltas and more so Flamers dedicated squads are pretty much on a suicide mission and you better have the first round of shooting.

 

Won't field Flamers because I already have Chainswords aimed at the same target "audience" and because of range they won't be able to find a target before i charge in.

 

At 4pts each I rather take a couple of Swords/Axes just in case, also a Plasma Pistol at 7pts,  Fists/Hammers only if my target it's Elites or Vehicles. 

 

That leaves me with Lascannons, not as many shots but i can sit back and possibly fire on multiple turns, in the form of a LasPredator or a Las squad with las razorback with the added benefit of the bolters in case someone wants to get close and pop it. 

 

For that purpose IG (fluffy option) has cheap Lascannons, a squad of 3 it's 72 points, shooting twice. 

They have BS4+ but with a Company Commander at 30pts they get 2 orders each turn, ideally reroll any 1s for hits and wounds.

I do believe you can only give 1 order to each squad per turn.

 

 

Company commander has the Senior Officer rule: May use the voice of command ability twice in each of your turns.

Going to take two squads, 12 shots rerolling.

[Gendo]

Talking about weapons, just noticed the Company Vets entry which would seem like the perfect excuse to field the Sword Brethren kit and with the EC make them a beast hunter unit.

 

How would you guys equip them? Going after tough stuff are claws useful?

[BitsHammer]

Talking about weapons, just noticed the Company Vets entry which would seem like the perfect excuse to field the Sword Brethren kit and with the EC make them a beast hunter unit.

 

How would you guys equip them? Going after tough stuff are claws useful?

Claws are S User but reroll sounds, so potentially. Personally to keep costs down I've been looking at bikers with axes and swords for a foot unit next to Helbrecht.

 

Giving the EC one...I would likely mix and match to keep some cheaper for the inevitable casualties (since they can interceot the Ec's wounds) while not overspending on the unit while gearing them up for heavier stuff. Likely something like 2 Axes, 2 pair of Lighting Claws and a Thunder Hammer and put them and the EC in a Razorback for extra fire support.

[Gendo]

 

Talking about weapons, just noticed the Company Vets entry which would seem like the perfect excuse to field the Sword Brethren kit and with the EC make them a beast hunter unit.

 

How would you guys equip them? Going after tough stuff are claws useful?

Claws are S User but reroll sounds, so potentially. Personally to keep costs down I've been looking at bikers with axes and swords for a foot unit next to Helbrecht.

 

Giving the EC one...I would likely mix and match to keep some cheaper for the inevitable casualties (since they can interceot the Ec's wounds) while not overspending on the unit while gearing them up for heavier stuff. Likely something like 2 Axes, 2 pair of Lighting Claws and a Thunder Hammer and put them and the EC in a Razorback for extra fire support.

 

 

Is the shield worth it at 5pts?

[BitsHammer]

Onnbikes I'd say for sure since they have 2 wounds and the bikes bolters for shooting. For a foot unit I'd probably mix between combis and shields.

 

Just a thought here, but a full sized unit of Sternguard with Stormbolters get 20 shots at full range and 40 shots at half range. Only 10 points more to the unit's cost but with no AP.

 

Basicall if you need to bury things in just pure Dakka that might be the best way to do it.

[Honda]

WARNING: Laying my ignorance out on the table for all to see.

 

Q: If instead of going strict points, you choose power levels, do all these decisions become irrelevant because you just take what you want?

 

When I first heard about the "power level" option, that seemed like a quick way to not worry about how many bolter mags Initiate Jones is carrying and focus more on what their effect will be?

[Lysere]

WARNING: Laying my ignorance out on the table for all to see.

 

Q: If instead of going strict points, you choose power levels, do all these decisions become irrelevant because you just take what you want?

 

When I first heard about the "power level" option, that seemed like a quick way to not worry about how many bolter mags Initiate Jones is carrying and focus more on what their effect will be?

You only ignore the cost of what options you'd take. You still need to think about the tactical relevance of those options.

 

Personally I'll probably stick to the same basic set up I've used in 7th for power weapons on my crusader squads. The character will take whatever he wants: sword, fist, storm bolter, etc. The initiates will stick to axes and mauls due to the better wounding roll.

 

Haven't really thought about heavy weapons too much.

[Acebaur]

I think the melta has dropped from the auto take it once was in our crusader squads to something that would be more for a dedicated monster/tank hunter unit such as with a MM. 

 

Why is everyone down on the flamer's range? You do realize that the old template was about 8 inches as well right? The new version has many advantages over the old one as well. If you have only a guy or two in range or only one model you were shooting at, the old one was only going to hit once. Now you get up to 6 all the way to to the 8 inch mark. The only downside is that you might roll a one. 

 

I think plasma has taken a top spot in usefulness after years of being relegated to a back seat. Also I finally have something to do with all those plasma pistols bits :lol:

 

Grav is still really good, but more situational and less useful against really tough tanks(though still wounding on a 5+)

 

I don't think sternguard are the way to field combi's anymore simply because you have to trade the special bolter to get it. If you want lots of combi's I'd say go with company vets for a few reasons. One they are the same price as Sternguard and have the same stats. They can also catch a bullet for a nearby character if need be as well. But they can also take a combi and a chainsword, something Sternguard cannot do so they'll be good at shooting and close combat. Quite a versatile unit. Only downside is they are capped at 5 guys. 

[Honda]

You only ignore the cost of what options you'd take. You still need to think about the tactical relevance of those options.

 

 

Agree and I apologize if I gave that impression. What I was trying to express was, "A pewerfist is for punching things, so is a hammer. Therefore, if I am paying for a squad' and it's overall capabilities, then it won't matter to me which one of those I take. If I want one, I'll take it.

 

Same with power axe/sword/claw/whatever.

 

To give some context, our group plays primarily at the Apoc level. In Apoc, what is in your individual squads isn't as important as what you do with them. Yes, you should know what their capabilities are (e.g. heavy weapons shoot farther), but the exact capabilities of one weapon system  (e.g. +1 S or +2 S) don't have as significant an impact as whether or not all your crusader squads have a powerfist. I.e.

 

So for example, if all my crusader squads have powerfists, (referenceing 7th ed), then I am less concerned about a Wraithlord stomping all my squads and in fact I just might take him down. If I didn't have the powerfists, then I wouldn't want to get in that situation.

 

So, I am thinking/wondering, if we use power levels, can we excuse ourselves from the minutiae of swords vs. axes because we're playing at a different scale than when a player is setting up and tuning a list for a tournament where sometimes every point is important.

 

That is what I am trying to determine.

[Acebaur]

I get what you are saying Honda, but in some cases like power weapons and PF/TH they cost the same hence the discussion.

 

In the case of the PF vs TH, basically if you can take a TH instead, it is a straight upgrade over a PF.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Pewerfist, is that one of those powerfists with a gun attached? So it can go pew pew in between squish squish.

[BitsHammer]

Pewerfist, is that one of those powerfists with a gun attached? So it can go pew pew in between squish squish.

Yup. It's the one that the new Primaris Grav Captain has. :P

[Lysere]

@Honda

 

Like Acebaur said the costs are mostly the same, the only times the ignoring of points will really matter is if someone had an option for a relic blade or similar weapons that are straight upgrades over all other similar options.

 

The hammer only costs more on characters, and even then not by much.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Lysere

[Gendo]

Is a Knight Crusader worth the points as a mostly lone heavy fire choice in a 2000pts assault list?

 

Comes with:

 

Avenger Gatling Cannon:  36" - Heavy12 - S6 - AP-2 - D2

Thermal Cannon:              36" - HeavyD3 - S9 - AP-4 - Dd6

Heavy Stubber:                 36" - Heavy3 Boltgun

Heavy Flamer:                   You know

 

For 512pts with the interesting pod option of: 

 

Stormspear Rocket Pod    48" - Heavy3 - S8 - AP-2 - Dd6 (75pts)

IronStorm Missile Pod       72" - HeavyD6 - S5 - AP-1 - D2 (targets no visible units, 16pts)