Brother Sgt Kartr Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 It now costs ~%206 more than it used to, has insignificant to the point of non-existent firepower, no firing points and can't deploy its cargo after moving. So while it's significantly more survivable, it doesn't actually do anything that justifies it costing more than a combat squad. So why is it so Damn expensive? Any ideas on how to make them work, or just wait till Chapter Approved fixes their price? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 In addition to being a transport, you could run a squad of stragglers over with em. I am currently making a list based on what I have on me right now, and that includes one Rhino/Razorback and a Land Raider/Crusader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Not only can they get your squad into combat unmolested (something the old Rhino really wasn't very good at for a variety of reasons), they can even charge into combat with the squad and boost their combat prowess. That's why the price went up - because Rhinos are no-longer a free kill for the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Balance. I trademarked the idea ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Rhinos on their own are fairly weak and not really worth 7wpts. Take 3 and add a couple Dreadnoughts and Terminators and boom - we got a party. Take just 2 Dreadnoughts and a Contemptor (because it moves 9" and is a Venerable in stats) and 3 Rhinos. That's 56 wounds. Not counting for target priority, line of sight, making saves and the Contemptor's invulnerable, how many lascannons do you think are needed to wipe them all out? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 The protection that it offers your elite forces is invaluable. Just watched a bat rep where it took nearly and entire 2000 point tyranid psychic and shooting phase to bring a Tau Transport down to 1 wound in one round. If that fire had lit up the units inside they would have been obliterated. Transports are not something you are going to want to spam in 8th ed with the exception of assault based armies. I honestly do not see the use of using a Rhino with a tactical squad unless you're using it just to get to and claim an objective. If that is the case you can then run the Rhino into combat with the opponent's army and tie them down a bit. Transports are all about mobility and survivability. If you want damage you need to look at something a bit larger than a Rhino, like Predators or Land Raiders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 I don't this it's just about balance within the rules. I think it's also about adjusting how armies look on the table. And honestly I'm okay with that. They game is going back to being more infantry-(small base)-centric. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Sgt Kartr Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 The protection that it offers your elite forces is invaluable. Just watched a bat rep where it took nearly and entire 2000 point tyranid psychic and shooting phase to bring a Tau Transport down to 1 wound in one round. If that fire had lit up the units inside they would have been obliterated. Transports are not something you are going to want to spam in 8th ed with the exception of assault based armies. I honestly do not see the use of using a Rhino with a tactical squad unless you're using it just to get to and claim an objective. If that is the case you can then run the Rhino into combat with the opponent's army and tie them down a bit. Transports are all about mobility and survivability. If you want damage you need to look at something a bit larger than a Rhino, like Predators or Land Raiders. Hmmmm so you're saying use them more defensively. If you're facing an assault army, bunker up so your infantry doesn't get shot turn 1 and then jump out turn 2 to shoot and charge. Or if you're facing a gunline, move up, weather a turn of shooting and deploy in their faces, and pray your Rhino doesn't get charged so you can't deploy. Still not sure if it's worth all those points without the ability to deploy after moving, but maybe it's not as overcosted as it first appears. I don't this it's just about balance within the rules. I think it's also about adjusting how armies look on the table. And honestly I'm okay with that. They game is going back to being more infantry-(small base)-centric.What do you mean it's going back to small base infantry? It's Monster Vehicle Ball. Infantry dies easily, infantry has to take leadership tests and likely lose more models, vehicles/monsters are incredibly tough and combat ones are incredibly points efficient. Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons 100 points Heavy 12 S6 Ap -1, T7, 11 wounds and 3+. Its firepower doesn't degrade until it has taken 5+ wounds and even then it retains the same number of shots, just loses a point of BS. A squad of 10 Marines has one less wound, is only T4, 2 fewer shots at 24", lower Strength and no AP, and every wound they take reduces their firepower. Oh and they cost 130 points. A Predator Annhilator out classes Devastators in a similar fashion. T7-8?, 11ish wounds, 3+ save, 4 lascannons, 202 points. Devastors with a similar amount of wounds, and lascannons has a lower toughness and costs almost 30 points more. Dreadnoughts are powerful now, Land Raiders are incredibly powerful (and expensive), it's the age of vehicles and monsters, not infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Sgt Kartr Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 Rhinos on their own are fairly weak and not really worth 7wpts. Take 3 and add a couple Dreadnoughts and Terminators and boom - we got a party. Take just 2 Dreadnoughts and a Contemptor (because it moves 9" and is a Venerable in stats) and 3 Rhinos. That's 56 wounds. Not counting for target priority, line of sight, making saves and the Contemptor's invulnerable, how many lascannons do you think are needed to wipe them all out? Why shoot the Rhinos? They can't hurt you. They're only one model when contesting objectives. They're not a threat. Not only can they get your squad into combat unmolested (something the old Rhino really wasn't very good at for a variety of reasons), they can even charge into combat with the squad and boost their combat prowess. That's why the price went up - because Rhinos are no-longer a free kill for the enemy. They're no longer a free kill but I'm not sure they get your Marines into combat. You can't disembark if the transport moved. So all the enemy has to do is lock the Rhino in combat and the Marines will never be able to deploy. Or if they're fast, just run away and your Marines will be out of position when they disembark. In addition to being a transport, you could run a squad of stragglers over with em. I am currently making a list based on what I have on me right now, and that includes one Rhino/Razorback and a Land Raider/Crusader. Run a squad of stragglers over with 3 attacks that hits on a 6+? You're not even gonna run over a Pathfinder with that attack profile. Honestly the only effective use I see for the Rhino is as a "tangler". Use its speed and survivability to lock an enemy unit in combat. Then on your next turn have it fall back so your guns can shoot the enemy squad. Effective, maybe worth 72 points, but not the purpose the Rhino is supposed to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Put a Techmarine in each one and plow them straight into your opponent's forces. You now have a vehicle that can keep enemies from shooting that will be a pain to kill as the Technarine can repair it every turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4778987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Not only can they get your squad into combat unmolested (something the old Rhino really wasn't very good at for a variety of reasons), they can even charge into combat with the squad and boost their combat prowess. That's why the price went up - because Rhinos are no-longer a free kill for the enemy. They're no longer a free kill but I'm not sure they get your Marines into combat. You can't disembark if the transport moved. So all the enemy has to do is lock the Rhino in combat and the Marines will never be able to deploy. Or if they're fast, just run away and your Marines will be out of position when they disembark. Not sure if the rules say something about it anywhere but unless I'm mistaken you don't have to be out of combat to disembark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyberos the Red Wake Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 I feel like the point is for their transport capacity. RBs are better if you want a tank with tons of wounds that can shoot a gun, but has less capacity still, right? Land Raiders are some of the best marine vehicles but are expensive. Therefore, that leaves the Rhino. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Sgt Kartr Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 Put a Techmarine in each one and plow them straight into your opponent's forces. You now have a vehicle that can keep enemies from shooting that will be a pain to kill as the Technarine can repair it every turn. Can you do that from inside the Rhino? Since commander auras don't work from inside and you can't shoot out, I just figured you wouldn't be able to do the Techmarine ability from inside. Not only can they get your squad into combat unmolested (something the old Rhino really wasn't very good at for a variety of reasons), they can even charge into combat with the squad and boost their combat prowess. That's why the price went up - because Rhinos are no-longer a free kill for the enemy. They're no longer a free kill but I'm not sure they get your Marines into combat. You can't disembark if the transport moved. So all the enemy has to do is lock the Rhino in combat and the Marines will never be able to deploy. Or if they're fast, just run away and your Marines will be out of position when they disembark. Not sure if the rules say something about it anywhere but unless I'm mistaken you don't have to be out of combat to disembark. Oh really? That changes things considerably if true! Charge the Rhino in, dismount, have the Rhino fall back, then shoot and charge with the Marines. At the very least you don't have to worry about getting locked in your box while waiting a turn to dismount. I feel like the point is for their transport capacity. RBs are better if you want a tank with tons of wounds that can shoot a gun, but has less capacity still, right? Land Raiders are some of the best marine vehicles but are expensive. Therefore, that leaves the Rhino. The role of transports is to get their cargo to where it is needed safely. I don't doubt that the Rhino will keep the Marine cargo safe, I just doubt its ability to get them there when they're needed. Being forced to dismount the turn after you move means the battle could easily move on while the squad is waiting to dismount. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 If a Techmarine can't fix the vehicle he is riding in, that would be beyond stupid. "Hey, something is broken behind the panel I'm sitting right next to.....let me get out of the tank to fix it." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Not only can they get your squad into combat unmolested (something the old Rhino really wasn't very good at for a variety of reasons), they can even charge into combat with the squad and boost their combat prowess. That's why the price went up - because Rhinos are no-longer a free kill for the enemy. They're no longer a free kill but I'm not sure they get your Marines into combat. You can't disembark if the transport moved. So all the enemy has to do is lock the Rhino in combat and the Marines will never be able to deploy. Or if they're fast, just run away and your Marines will be out of position when they disembark. Not sure if the rules say something about it anywhere but unless I'm mistaken you don't have to be out of combat to disembark. Oh really? That changes things considerably if true! Charge the Rhino in, dismount, have the Rhino fall back, then shoot and charge with the Marines. At the very least you don't have to worry about getting locked in your box while waiting a turn to dismount. This is a perfectly legal, and viable tactic!! Considering the vehicles can charge, and you can charge out of them, you're looking at a solid option. I just think Tacticals are more underwhelming now than ever before given the strength buffs of everything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 The protection that it offers your elite forces is invaluable. Just watched a bat rep where it took nearly and entire 2000 point tyranid psychic and shooting phase to bring a Tau Transport down to 1 wound in one round. If that fire had lit up the units inside they would have been obliterated. Transports are not something you are going to want to spam in 8th ed with the exception of assault based armies. I honestly do not see the use of using a Rhino with a tactical squad unless you're using it just to get to and claim an objective. If that is the case you can then run the Rhino into combat with the opponent's army and tie them down a bit. Transports are all about mobility and survivability. If you want damage you need to look at something a bit larger than a Rhino, like Predators or Land Raiders. Hmmmm so you're saying use them more defensively. If you're facing an assault army, bunker up so your infantry doesn't get shot turn 1 and then jump out turn 2 to shoot and charge. Or if you're facing a gunline, move up, weather a turn of shooting and deploy in their faces, and pray your Rhino doesn't get charged so you can't deploy. Still not sure if it's worth all those points without the ability to deploy after moving, but maybe it's not as overcosted as it first appears. I don't this it's just about balance within the rules. I think it's also about adjusting how armies look on the table. And honestly I'm okay with that. They game is going back to being more infantry-(small base)-centric.What do you mean it's going back to small base infantry? It's Monster Vehicle Ball. Infantry dies easily, infantry has to take leadership tests and likely lose more models, vehicles/monsters are incredibly tough and combat ones are incredibly points efficient. Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons 100 points Heavy 12 S6 Ap -1, T7, 11 wounds and 3+. Its firepower doesn't degrade until it has taken 5+ wounds and even then it retains the same number of shots, just loses a point of BS. A squad of 10 Marines has one less wound, is only T4, 2 fewer shots at 24", lower Strength and no AP, and every wound they take reduces their firepower. Oh and they cost 130 points. A Predator Annhilator out classes Devastators in a similar fashion. T7-8?, 11ish wounds, 3+ save, 4 lascannons, 202 points. Devastors with a similar amount of wounds, and lascannons has a lower toughness and costs almost 30 points more. Dreadnoughts are powerful now, Land Raiders are incredibly powerful (and expensive), it's the age of vehicles and monsters, not infantry. The Razorback can lose 6 wounds from one lascannon shot. The Marines can lose one. Look at the number of weapons that do multi damage, now back to me. Now back to the number of weapons that do multi damage, now back to your razorback. Edit: Infantry can also take cover, those devastators will have a 2+ half the time, while cover will be a luxury for vehicles. Finally, those infantry can double as assault troops quite nicely, and even two of them will take an objective from a lone vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 It looks like the Rhino will be useful to those who want to use one. But the "Rhino Rush" is a doctrine of the past. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 It now costs ~%206 more than it used to, has insignificant to the point of non-existent firepower, no firing points and can't deploy its cargo after moving.Emphasis mine. What in the Emperor's name happened to the rooftop hatch? The one that two passengers could shoot out from? Why, pray Emperor, was that hatch removed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4779968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewChristlieb Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 More on that why the heck can I literally OPEN the entire TOP of my tank, but it still doesn't even have an option of becoming opentop. :D Really every model in a Rhino should be able to shoot out. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Now I think the choice to have open too doors was a cool modeling decision with well-intended rules. Over time, those rules have become clunky and bothersome enough that GW decided to get rid of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 If a Techmarine can't fix the vehicle he is riding in, that would be beyond stupid. "Hey, something is broken behind the panel I'm sitting right next to.....let me get out of the tank to fix it." Seeing battle damage is outside, it would be really even weirder if he could do it from inside. "That bolter shot jammed track between two wheels? No problem, I'll kick the side and magically repair it through two armor plates and engine block separating me from it!" More on that why the heck can I literally OPEN the entire TOP of my tank, but it still doesn't even have an option of becoming opentop. Really every model in a Rhino should be able to shoot out. People always had problems visualizing 10 marines fitting inside the rhino, yet you postulate they should be able to fit in a hatch. Ok. Speaking of said hatch, it always puzzled me how these 2 marines even used it. Is there a set of stilts somewhere inside the vehicle or did they form human pyramid standing on the other 8 members of their squad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Speaking of said hatch, it always puzzled me how these 2 marines even used it. Is there a set of stilts somewhere inside the vehicle or did they form human pyramid standing on the other 8 members of their squad? Look inside the Rhino, and you'll see benches to seat the Marines. I presume the shooters just stand on the benches, after everyone else moves to the side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Personally I'm glad they got rid of shooting out of vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Look inside the Rhino, and you'll see benches to seat the Marines. I presume the shooters just stand on the benches, after everyone else moves to the side. I did. Look yourself: Not only the benches are far too low still, you'd need to stand at 45 degree angle to actually reach the opening... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4780749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Raven Guard Rhino? The post is approved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334529-what-happened-to-the-rhino/#findComment-4781669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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