Tactics: Elite vs Swarm Lists

[Aothaine]

I've checked into a few 8th ed bat reps and I'm starting to notice a trend. Elite armies are really difficult to achieve victories with now. Armies that can put so many bodies on the field that the elite armies just cannot handle them is going to be a pretty big issue I think. I have drawn up a few different swarm lists and non-swarm lists and have compared the firepower of these lists against each other. 

 

A good example is a Green Tide list.

 

At 2000 points you can field the following Ork list.

186 Orks

Warboss

Wierdboy x2

Boyz x 150

Tankbustas x30

Painboys x3

 

The list has 6 Big shootas, 39 Missle Launchas and 3 bomb squigs

 

I've run through the numbers over and over and I cannot see how an all-primaris list or even a space marine list can put out enough fire power to prevent their lines being completely over run.

 

How do you all think that 8th ed elite armies, of which space marines are now as they should be, can face off against swarms armies like this, Astra Militarium, Tyranids etc...?

 

Edit: I ask this because I am planning on having an all Primaris army and possibly some other elite lists as well. Not trying to be like "Ohhh look at me and my unbeatable list!" I am just having problems thinking of ways to build an all-comers list that has the tools to work against hordes and elite lists.

 

Is it possible to have a Heavy Support marine squad with four heavy flamers? Also, would that even be a good idea to do that over four las-cannons?

Edited June 10, 2017 by Aothaine

[Montford]

I think my Sisters of Battle would match up pretty well. They are halfway between an Elite and a Swarm with BS 3+, and with a mechanic of enabling units such as  Heavy Bolter and Stormbolter squads (Retributor and Diminion respectively) of firing twice per turn. That would be bery handy against Orks. Also the Repentia have proved to me to be very useful in 8th so that's a good melee choice. I am looking forward to seeing how Orks are in 8th as my friends Jason and Chad love to use them.

 

I think that you do have a point about Elite armies: I crushed a Blood Angel player yesterday, and he had some big point single models fielded: Dante, Mephisto, that Librarian Dreadnought they have, fully kitted Land Raider and an Imperial Knight (don't remember which version but he said it cost 470 points). When he hit me he hurt me but I had at least twice, probably more, volume of fire.

 

Mind you don't discount Space Marines in general. If the SM player doesn't marry himself to a lot of big cost units, and say only invests in one high point cost unit or  leader, he/she should be able to field a lot of guns. Its an interesting thought, and I'm going to play around with the numbers and see what I can come up with for my Red Templars.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Montford981

[Jacques Corbin]

The best with with hordes tends to be artillery when dealing with hordes. Maybe invest in Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds, maybe even some Stormtalons.

 

For Flamers, consider the Ironclad Dreadnought. You can take 2 Heavy Flamers, and Ironclad Assault Launchers, which (I am hoping) count as defensive grenades (if that is still a thing). Even if all my parenthetical are untrue in 8th, this beast now has more wounds and a bunch of attacks and no horde wants to run into one.

[H311fi5h]

What about going the complete opposite strategy?

Take extreme elite units, super low model and unit count with as much armor, wounds, and damage output in is little space as possible. Now the mass of low power shots won't find efficient targets, while the enemy's anti vehicle/monster weapons get overwhelmed. In close combat the enemy will be unable to get all his models within range, wasting a ton of attacks. By deploying everything into a small area, and keeping half the army in deep strike reserve, many of the enemy's units will be out of position to do anything, yet deep strike, teleport homers and jump packs still allow you to secure objectives.

In addition, a small elite army will always finish deployment first, getting first turn advantage.

 

You would go with Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, Primaris, Characters, Imperial Knights, or equivalent units for other armies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Soooo. . . you're saying I should build that all-Dreadnought army I've always wanted.

[Cryptix]

As a Tyranid Player, I can tell you the one thing my Hordes fear are A)High toughness with lots of wounds (about a Knight) and B)Twin linked weapons with lots of shots. If it's really a problem, just take a Spearhead detachment on the side with 3 2 man Centurion units with heavy Bolters and hurricane Bolters and a Captain to reroll ones.

 

The other thing that counters them hard are deepstriking elements that can put out lots of wounds and take out their Warrior synapse. This is Tyranid specific though, so it won't work on Poxwalkers or boys. But still, a pure horde army doesn't work - they only get scary when they later on the buffs, so take out the buffers. Thraka, Painboys, Typhus, LoC, etc.

[H311fi5h]

A Dreadnought with tripple Heavy Flamer is 163 points. Sounds toasty 

[Doghouse]

I think it'll be worth waiting and seeing what the Repulsor and Redemptor have to offer.

 

The indexes strike me as being a compilation of what models are available at launch rather than this is what you get. It could be that Intercessor squads get upgrades like flamers once the proper codex hits or even the option to add more models.

 

It just strikes me as odd otherwise that the basic squads are so inflexible in tactical options. Right now this feels like this is what you get in the starter set so we need to put out rules but the good stuff is coming later with the proper codex.

[Aothaine]

A Dreadnought with tripple Heavy Flamer is 163 points. Sounds toasty 

 

Yeah, but keep in mind that a good swarm army is going to be able to do swarm you in shots and melee. The melee Boyz can have four attacks at str 4 each with the boss having 4 at str 6 with a big choppa. That is if the dreadnought(s) survive the 39 missles a turn heading into them.

 

As a Tyranid Player, I can tell you the one thing my Hordes fear are A)High toughness with lots of wounds (about a Knight) and B)Twin linked weapons with lots of shots. If it's really a problem, just take a Spearhead detachment on the side with 3 2 man Centurion units with heavy Bolters and hurricane Bolters and a Captain to reroll ones.

 

The other thing that counters them hard are deepstriking elements that can put out lots of wounds and take out their Warrior synapse. This is Tyranid specific though, so it won't work on Poxwalkers or boys. But still, a pure horde army doesn't work - they only get scary when they later on the buffs, so take out the buffers. Thraka, Painboys, Typhus, LoC, etc.

 

Yep! Targeting synapse against Tyranids is super important. But most synapse is really hard to kill. Especially if you take the bugs that create the clouds, Malanthropes?

 

 

What about going the complete opposite strategy?

Take extreme elite units, super low model and unit count with as much armor, wounds, and damage output in is little space as possible. Now the mass of low power shots won't find efficient targets, while the enemy's anti vehicle/monster weapons get overwhelmed. In close combat the enemy will be unable to get all his models within range, wasting a ton of attacks. By deploying everything into a small area, and keeping half the army in deep strike reserve, many of the enemy's units will be out of position to do anything, yet deep strike, teleport homers and jump packs still allow you to secure objectives.

In addition, a small elite army will always finish deployment first, getting first turn advantage.

 

You would go with Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, Primaris, Characters, Imperial Knights, or equivalent units for other armies.

 

The problem that small elite armies will have against this list is the same as the Dreadnought idea. Rokkit Launchas are str 8 -2save 3dmg for each wound. Sure the boyz hit on a 5+ but you have 39 shots a turn. MY the time that elite army gets into melee they are going to be bloodied. Don't forget that there are still over 70 shootas that shoot twice at str 4. In relation to the list above. 

 

The best with with hordes tends to be artillery when dealing with hordes. Maybe invest in Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds, maybe even some Stormtalons.

 

For Flamers, consider the Ironclad Dreadnought. You can take 2 Heavy Flamers, and Ironclad Assault Launchers, which (I am hoping) count as defensive grenades (if that is still a thing). Even if all my parenthetical are untrue in 8th, this beast now has more wounds and a bunch of attacks and no horde wants to run into one.

 

I agree here that flamers and artillery are good against hordes. But when you invest in these options will they pay off against the elite armies you face? I'm not trying to be rude I'm just looking for optimization of my lists.

[H311fi5h]

 

What about going the complete opposite strategy?

Take extreme elite units, super low model and unit count with as much armor, wounds, and damage output in is little space as possible. Now the mass of low power shots won't find efficient targets, while the enemy's anti vehicle/monster weapons get overwhelmed. In close combat the enemy will be unable to get all his models within range, wasting a ton of attacks. By deploying everything into a small area, and keeping half the army in deep strike reserve, many of the enemy's units will be out of position to do anything, yet deep strike, teleport homers and jump packs still allow you to secure objectives.

In addition, a small elite army will always finish deployment first, getting first turn advantage.

 

You would go with Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, Primaris, Characters, Imperial Knights, or equivalent units for other armies.

 

The problem that small elite armies will have against this list is the same as the Dreadnought idea. Rokkit Launchas are str 8 -2save 3dmg for each wound. Sure the boyz hit on a 5+ but you have 39 shots a turn. MY the time that elite army gets into melee they are going to be bloodied. Don't forget that there are still over 70 shootas that shoot twice at str 4. In relation to the list above. 

 

 

That's why I proposed to attempt to overwhelm the anti-tank firepower. If ALL units in my army are super tough, heavily armored multi wound models, there aren't enough Rokkits to deal with all of them. Sure, sluggas and choppas can still hurt, but they are significantly less effective, if you don't have ANY units with MEQ and below stats.

Just as important, an elite army will go first 5 out of 6 times against a horde. So you could focus all the shooting on taking out as many of the dangerous guns as possible.

 

I have yet to play my first game of 8th, so this is all just theory crafting. But purely from a mathematical perspective, limiting the target range you are presenting to your enemy to either super tough low count multi-wound, or numerous single wound models looks like a good tactic.

Edited June 10, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Cryptix]

.

 

 

As a Tyranid Player, I can tell you the one thing my Hordes fear are A)High toughness with lots of wounds (about a Knight) and B)Twin linked weapons with lots of shots. If it's really a problem, just take a Spearhead detachment on the side with 3 2 man Centurion units with heavy Bolters and hurricane Bolters and a Captain to reroll ones.

 

The other thing that counters them hard are deepstriking elements that can put out lots of wounds and take out their Warrior synapse. This is Tyranid specific though, so it won't work on Poxwalkers or boys. But still, a pure horde army doesn't work - they only get scary when they later on the buffs, so take out the buffers. Thraka, Painboys, Typhus, LoC, etc.

Yep! Targeting synapse against Tyranids is super important. But most synapse is really hard to kill. Especially if you take the bugs that create the clouds, Malanthropes?

 

Venomthropes currently - Malantgroprs are in the FW books. And their aura doesn't affect the big synapse creatures - only Warriors, Shrikes, Tyranid Primes, and Broodlords.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

That's why I proposed to attempt to overwhelm the anti-tank firepower. If ALL units in my army are super tough, heavily armored multi wound models, there aren't enough Rokkits to deal with all of them. Sure, sluggas and choppas can still hurt, but they are significantly less effective, if you don't have ANY units with MEQ and below stats.

Just as important, an elite army will go first 5 out of 6 times against a horde. So you could focus all the shooting on taking out as many of the dangerous guns as possible.

 

I have yet to play my first game of 8th, so this is all just theory crafting. But purely from a mathematical perspective, limiting the target range you are presenting to your enemy to either super tough low count multi-wound, or numerous single wound models looks like a good tactic.

 

 

I'll have to run some numbers when I get home to look into this more. My first thought on the matter though would be that you are just increasing the amount of fire going into those targets. Going first will help for sure. Target priority is also going to be incredibly important. I'll have a look at a fiew different things. Artillery, Terminator Armor, Flamers, Dreadnoughts, and a few other options.

 

I'll post my findings here once I finish the testing.

[the jeske]

Now some people may think this is an a-hole move, but if someone fires multiple rokkits at a multi wound model unit. Remember to make him roll each roll separate. witht he way wound allocation works in 7th. as stuff kills full models so rolls of 2-3 can get wasted if a model already lost a wound. Also terrain is important walls etc are no longer passable, one also can't move models through other models so a swarm of 200 dudes may have problems moving.

[Quixus]

The best with with hordes tends to be artillery when dealing with hordes. Maybe invest in Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds, maybe even some Stormtalons.

 

For Flamers, consider the Ironclad Dreadnought. You can take 2 Heavy Flamers, and Ironclad Assault Launchers, which (I am hoping) count as defensive grenades (if that is still a thing). Even if all my parenthetical are untrue in 8th, this beast now has more wounds and a bunch of attacks and no horde wants to run into one.

Am I missing somehting? I thought that formerly template and blast weapons only did d6 hits. This will hardly put a dent into a green tide.

[Aothaine]

Now some people may think this is an a-hole move, but if someone fires multiple rokkits at a multi wound model unit. Remember to make him roll each roll separate. witht he way wound allocation works in 7th. as stuff kills full models so rolls of 2-3 can get wasted if a model already lost a wound. Also terrain is important walls etc are no longer passable, one also can't move models through other models so a swarm of 200 dudes may have problems moving.

 

Moving will be a bit tricky. But you start with the entire force as close to your opponent as you can and just move up the board. You won't really need to advance and the entire army moves the same speed. Terrain will def cause some issues.

 

 

The best with with hordes tends to be artillery when dealing with hordes. Maybe invest in Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds, maybe even some Stormtalons.

 

For Flamers, consider the Ironclad Dreadnought. You can take 2 Heavy Flamers, and Ironclad Assault Launchers, which (I am hoping) count as defensive grenades (if that is still a thing). Even if all my parenthetical are untrue in 8th, this beast now has more wounds and a bunch of attacks and no horde wants to run into one.

Am I missing somehting? I thought that formerly template and blast weapons only did d6 hits. This will hardly put a dent into a green tide.

 

 

You are correct. I have my doubts about flamers and blast weapons having much effect on swarms right now too. But I'll test it out.

 

Venomthropes currently - Malantgroprs are in the FW books. And their aura doesn't affect the big synapse creatures - only Warriors, Shrikes, Tyranid Primes, and Broodlords.

 

Ahhh thank you!

[Cleon]

Template and blast are in general a little underwhelming, but in the Ork list above a Thunderfire (or two) targeting the tankbusters will be removing Rokkits at one hell of a rate. Combine that with the 'heavy' army and he's quickly resorting to ttying to down dreads with shootas.

[Blindhamster]

i think inceptors will be very useful for an all primaris army, they cost a bit about the same as 5 devastators with 4 heavy bolters in a drop pod, but unlike the latter, they continue to be maneuverable when they come down, are tougher, have more shots, and arent completely terrible in CC (still not amazing, but if used right could still be useful).

likewise, based on the background for them (gravis armour, dual flamers (or heavy flamers, unsure) and cyclone missile launchers could make Aggressors very good vs hordes too due to weight of fire they can lay down (i also bet they'll be 3 wounds 3+ save toughness 5, vs the terminators 2 wounds 2+ save and toughness 4).

Whilst we dont know the rules for redemptors and repulsors, it seems clear they come with a lot of dakka.

 

 

also keep in mind that the relatively cheap primaris lieutenants let models within 6" reroll 1s to wound, and the captain lets them reroll 1s to hit. They'll take some getting used to but those are likely to be pretty efficient force multipliers if positioned correctly.

[H311fi5h]

 

Am I missing somehting? I thought that formerly template and blast weapons only did d6 hits. This will hardly put a dent into a green tide.

 

 

Yes, D6. However, since they have 8" range (which is just the tip of the template) the effective range has increased. In overwatch, you will also do D6 hits, instead of D3. Twin linked weapons now get double shot. So that Dreadnought build I've mentioned above can do 3D6 S5 AP-1 hits per shooting attack. That is 7 dead Orks. Do that in your shooting phase, and then do it again in the enemy's turn, we're at 14 dead Orks. A hurricane bolter in rapid fire range will 3.33 Orks. That's not bad, but significantly worse than twin heavy flamers with 4.66. On the other hand hurricane bolters can reach further.

 

Looking at other options:

Devastator with Heavy Bolter: 5.80 wounds per 100 points

Tactical Marine with Boltgun: 2.14/4.28

Tactical with Flamer: 6.63

Centurion Devastator with Heavy Bolters and Hurricane: 3.00/4.87/6.74

Inceptor: 3.56

Whirlwind Castellan: 2.25

Dakka Razorback (Twin assault + SB): 5.23/5.77/6.32

Tripple HF Dread: 4.29

ThunderFire Cannon (including cost for Techmarine): 4.63

 

For comparison:

Dakka Russ (Punisher, 3xHB): 4.86

Tripple HB HWT: 8.33

Tripple Mortar: 8.10

 

Devastators with Heavy Bolters look decent. Centurions need to get close to be effective. Spamming Razorbacks looks actually really good. Whirlwinds suck ballz.

Flamers are a bit hard to compare. They are super effective when they shoot, but the range is an issue. On the other hand you can get overwatch hits. I would simply add flamers and heavy flamers wherever it doesn't hurt. So if you want to play a Dreadnought anyway, always give him the HF.

Nothing the Space Marines have comes anywhere near the Astra Militarum weapons teams, but they are super squishy. Adding 9-15 Mortar teams (that's 81-135 points) might be something to consider for any army of the Imperium though. They cost nothing, don't need LOS, have 48" range, and can block your deployment zone from deep striking. They are just criminally good right now.

 

 

i think inceptors will be very useful for an all primaris army, they cost a bit about the same as 5 devastators with 4 heavy bolters in a drop pod, but unlike the latter, they continue to be maneuverable when they come down, are tougher, have more shots, and arent completely terrible in CC (still not amazing, but if used right could still be useful).

 

 

Inceptors kinda suck purely looking at damage/points. However the fly keyword could be really valuable, falling back and still shooting. And of course they are more mobile in general. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Trevak Dal]

Until I get Jump shoot jump back with my Tau I'm effectively out of the game and have a very large impressive collection of paper weights.

 

I get it back (2d6" move in charge phase) and my ability to fight and control the Battle space comes back again.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[Lysere]

One of the advantages of an elite army is their ability to kill targets quickly, you may have 30 tank bustas, but they can be focused down quite quickly from range before they get to do much, and once in combat the elite units will be safe from the horde of shots.

 

Elite armies need to prioritise targets in order to work against hordes effectively and it shouldn't be too hard.

 

I really need to finish putting my thunderfire cannon together since hordes are coming back with a vengence.

[Aothaine]

Template and blast are in general a little underwhelming, but in the Ork list above a Thunderfire (or two) targeting the tankbusters will be removing Rokkits at one hell of a rate. Combine that with the 'heavy' army and he's quickly resorting to ttying to down dreads with shootas.

 

I completely understand that lists wills have counters. I'm trying to find out how to build an elite all-comers list. How effective are the TFCs against other elite armies? If they are good all around will they become and auto-include in any space marine list?

 

What happens when you go against a Tyranid list that charges you on the first turn with flying monsters? Just watched it happen in a bat rep last night against a Tau list.

[Lysere]

 

 

Template and blast are in general a little underwhelming, but in the Ork list above a Thunderfire (or two) targeting the tankbusters will be removing Rokkits at one hell of a rate. Combine that with the 'heavy' army and he's quickly resorting to ttying to down dreads with shootas.

I completely understand that lists wills have counters. I'm trying to find out how to build an elite all-comers list. How effective are the TFCs against other elite armies? If they are good all around will they become and auto-include in any space marine list?

 

What happens when you go against a Tyranid list that charges you on the first turn with flying monsters? Just watched it happen in a bat rep last night against a Tau list.

Bubble wrap is key, as are abilities to allow you to disengage and counter charge.

 

Thunder fires seem good against infantry but I've yet to play any games of 8th so we shall see.

[Cleon]

 

Template and blast are in general a little underwhelming, but in the Ork list above a Thunderfire (or two) targeting the tankbusters will be removing Rokkits at one hell of a rate. Combine that with the 'heavy' army and he's quickly resorting to ttying to down dreads with shootas.

 

I completely understand that lists wills have counters. I'm trying to find out how to build an elite all-comers list. How effective are the TFCs against other elite armies? If they are good all around will they become and auto-include in any space marine list?

 

What happens when you go against a Tyranid list that charges you on the first turn with flying monsters? Just watched it happen in a bat rep last night against a Tau list.

 

Well, as a Blood Angels player, I can only watch Thunderfire cannons with envy from afar, but the change to being able to do the same number of hits to a small elite unit as you would to a horde thanks to d6 rolls instead of templates makes me feel they're cheap enough to always have a place in the toolkit.

 

For the Tyranid example you may just have to accept losing the cannon, but keeping a counter charge unit nearby turns it into bait - if they want to silence it, thay have to sacrifice one of the fliers. If on the other hand you genuinely expect to face both a pure green tide and an all FNC Tyranid swarm then I'd suggest dropping the thought of all rounders, choosing a gimmick of your own and joining the crazy game of rock paper scissors. 

[Brother Aiwass]

I think the BA shouldn't complain lacking anti-horde, they have (or had?) a lot of it!

[Aothaine]

 

 

Template and blast are in general a little underwhelming, but in the Ork list above a Thunderfire (or two) targeting the tankbusters will be removing Rokkits at one hell of a rate. Combine that with the 'heavy' army and he's quickly resorting to ttying to down dreads with shootas.

 

I completely understand that lists wills have counters. I'm trying to find out how to build an elite all-comers list. How effective are the TFCs against other elite armies? If they are good all around will they become and auto-include in any space marine list?

 

What happens when you go against a Tyranid list that charges you on the first turn with flying monsters? Just watched it happen in a bat rep last night against a Tau list.

 

Well, as a Blood Angels player, I can only watch Thunderfire cannons with envy from afar, but the change to being able to do the same number of hits to a small elite unit as you would to a horde thanks to d6 rolls instead of templates makes me feel they're cheap enough to always have a place in the toolkit.

 

For the Tyranid example you may just have to accept losing the cannon, but keeping a counter charge unit nearby turns it into bait - if they want to silence it, thay have to sacrifice one of the fliers. If on the other hand you genuinely expect to face both a pure green tide and an all FNC Tyranid swarm then I'd suggest dropping the thought of all rounders, choosing a gimmick of your own and joining the crazy game of rock paper scissors. 

 

 

Yeah it appears I might need to. Shame really. I'll keep working on it but as far as Pure Primaris goes, while they are beautiful I just can't see them working very well as an all comers list.

 

 

I think the BA shouldn't complain lacking anti-horde, they have (or had?) a lot of it!

 

Need to stay on topic please.