Tactics: Elite vs Swarm Lists

[Lysere]

Assault cannon, Str 6, AP -1 6 shots, Heavy so assuming move, hits on 4+

 

versus Orks, Wounds on a 3, no save, 12 points of kills

versus Tactical Marines, wounds on a 3, 4+ save, 13 points of kills

 

Again, hurts the elites harder than the Hordes. The issue isn't you can't hurt hordes, the issue is the anti horde weapons hurt elites pretty much as hard, the anti elite weapons don't hurt hordes, therefore hordes+numbers have no adequate counter.

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

 

Also lets not pretend getting massive numbers of hits against hordes ever happened in any serious scene because everyone would keep them as spread out as possible meaning at best you usually would only get a couple hits unless you had a really lucky scatter. Flamers also get their full hits regardless of position which again, with how most people stayed spread out will usually leave you with the same or more hits, and now you get better overwatch on top of that.

[Runefyre]

 

Assault cannon, Str 6, AP -1 6 shots, Heavy so assuming move, hits on 4+

 

versus Orks, Wounds on a 3, no save, 12 points of kills

versus Tactical Marines, wounds on a 3, 4+ save, 13 points of kills

 

Again, hurts the elites harder than the Hordes. The issue isn't you can't hurt hordes, the issue is the anti horde weapons hurt elites pretty much as hard, the anti elite weapons don't hurt hordes, therefore hordes+numbers have no adequate counter.

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

Have you seen me roll my 2+ armory saves?

[Aothaine]

I would like to point out that I was mainly concerned about this for competitive matched play. In this instance you are not going to be able to tailor your list as you like when you see the horde list. I have stated that building a counter to a specific list is easy. I'm trying to find a way to build an all-comers list for 8th ed competitive play. Sure I could just build a list to roast elite lists or just roast hordes but I can't guarantee that the match-ups will be in my favor.

 

Flamers are actually a really good horde deterrent if you can take enough of them. For example, Taui crisis suits can take three per model. It is expensive but you take a unit of 5 of those suits and that is 15d6 auto hits on a unit with very high mobility and very tough to kill with the drone support they have in 8th ed. The Ork list I posted there is just for example. Tyranids might have been a better test due to them having power psychic/shoot/fight phases with their monsters and swarms. But it is too late for that.

 

Assault cannons are nice. But expensive to spam and do run into the issue that you are having to take more vehicles. Vehicles are really expensive in 8th ed and I don't feel that spamming them just for assault cannons is a wise move. 

[GreyCrow]

Twin Assault Canons are a good bet.

 

Anyone saying they now suck against hordes is just a liar carving for attention. Only worthy of the pain gauntlet for absolution.

[H311fi5h]

 

Assault cannons are nice. But expensive to spam and do run into the issue that you are having to take more vehicles. Vehicles are really expensive in 8th ed and I don't feel that spamming them just for assault cannons is a wise move. 

 

A Razorback is 102 points with AC and SB.

A Devastator Squad is 105 points with 4 HB.

 

The Razorback has double the wounds, almost double the toughness, double the mobility, slightly more firepower, and it can transport people. The only disadvantage I can see is that you can't put it into a building. I'd say Razorbacks are pretty spammable.

 

 

If your concern is not being able to fight elite armies, the AC razorback is still 78% effective compare to the Las variant, and 68% compared to an all-las Predator when shooting at T8 3+ (adjusted for points). I don't think you hurt your armies flexibility by bringing 4 or 5.

[Ishagu]

You can't spam a Razorback without first taking another unit.

You have to bring them in as dedicated transports to existing squads you've purchased. Factor in that cost as well.

 

On the other hand, 10 Tactical Marines with a Combi Plasma, Plasma and Grav Cannon are 186 points. That's bodies, screening and decent mid range firepower.

[Catechin]

Taking other units for razorbacks isn't really difficult, though.  Remember that you can take one for every unit you take in the "normal" detachments.  That means each HQ, each heavy support, each unit.  It's not difficult to get 3+ transport slots from HQ units alone.  Heck, you could have 2 HQs, 3 land raiders, and 5 razorbacks at like 1850 no problem.  Stupid, but you could.

 

Looking at tactical squads, they're not bad, but or 193 points you can get a 5-man squad with double plasma or a grav cannon and a twin assault cannon razorback.  More wounds, more firepower, and more mobility.

 

Slightly unrelated, but a 10-man tactical squad with double special + heavy is the same cost as a 5-man tac with double special and a 5-man devastator with heavy while splitting up the squads gives you more melee attacks from the extra sergeant and the signum ability.  Looking at devastators I think is one of the better ways to get access to anti-horde.  A spearhead detachment with a captain, 3 5-man devastator squads with heavy bolters, and 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons is just under 700 points for a stupid amount of firepower.  Signum + captain negates a lot of the minuses for moving with heavy weapons as well.

[Ishagu]

We'll need screening units and Rhinos/Razors don't really fill that roll.

 

Also, as they are a single model things like Las Cannons are deadlier against them. 2 Las Cannons can only kill 2 Marines, but there's a chance they'll cripple or destroy a Rhino for example. It's bs and movement is badly affected as it takes damage.

 

Also big units that can be spread out are easier to keep in Aura ranges. Worth thinking about.

[Catechin]

We'll need screening units and Rhinos/Razors don't really fill that roll.

 

Yes and no, although that's somewhere I'm having some issues coming up with something great.  I feel like the 5-man scout squads mentioned here would work well, or to give a nod to tactical squads, 5-man combat squads of bolter marines would work as well.  The other option, of course, is to relocate your army and mech helps with that.

[Captain Idaho]

Get numbers on the board. No Space Marines player should leave home without 40 boots on the ground in basic troops alone.

 

Taking counter charge elements looks to be important too. Let the Orks charge up the table taking fire, then punish the Ork player with a solid counter assault that dissolves at least one mob on the charge.

 

That's a lot of Orks but use their numbers to your advantage. Refuse a flank and hit a single side of the table with the majority of your firepower. Place some bait the other side perhaps so it encourages the Ork player to spread out.

 

It won't be easy but it is unlikely to be impossible.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Thinking it's time for this topic to find its true home in the Tactica area =][=

[H311fi5h]

You can't spam a Razorback without first taking another unit.

You have to bring them in as dedicated transports to existing squads you've purchased. Factor in that cost as well.

 

On the other hand, 10 Tactical Marines with a Combi Plasma, Plasma and Grav Cannon are 186 points. That's bodies, screening and decent mid range firepower.

 

You're gonna take at least 5 units in your army anyway. Even if you're playing an all-Terminator or all-tank army you can still bring 5 Razorbacks. The rules don't require you do have anything that fits inside. So, no they don't produce any extra cost at all.

 

Let's just compare you squad with the AC Razorback for fun:

Against T8 3+ your squad will do 1.67/1.27 damage per 100 points with/without overcharged plasma at 12-24". In rapid fire with overcharge it's 2.69 stationary, 2.50 moving.

The AC Razorback sits at 1.4.

 

Let's go against Ork Boyz:

Razorback: 6.32

Your squad: 4.00 in rapid fire range. 2.47 outside.

 

So the tactical squad barely wins in terms of firepower against a tough target outside of 12", and loses horribly against horde targets. In rapid fire range the tacticals are pretty amazing against tough targets, but how do you get there without a transport?

The tacticals are also less mobile, and much less resilient.

Of course you can split fire now, getting the ideal target for every weapon against a mixed army. But at the same time the Razorbacks won't be fighting in a vacuum either, and will be able to engage softer targets while Predators take care of the big stuff when fighting a mixed list. I think it's very hard to beat the AC Razorback in terms of point efficiency.

 

When it comes to screening, I really wouldn't want to have a 186 point squad stuck in combat with some Orks or Hormagaunts. Take 5 men scout squads for 55 points to do that job. They also add pretty point efficient firepower with boltguns.

 

But why don't you take the best of both worlds?

5 men squads with double plasma for getting close, or plasma+grav for a more defensive approach, with a Razorback as dedicated transport.

 

edit: fixed some numbers

Edited June 11, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Ishagu]

I just think people are overestimated the Razorback. Firstly if it moves it's missing half the shots. Once you've taken a bit of damage you'll be hitting on 6s a lot of the time.

 

If you want point efficient anti infantry grab yourself a few Eversor Assasins :-)

[Catechin]

I just think people are overestimated the Razorback. Firstly if it moves it's missing half the shots. Once you've taken a bit of damage you'll be hitting on 6s a lot of the time.

 

You have to lose 5 T7 3+ wounds before you drop in BS; that's a significant amount of non anti-tank firepower required to do that.  Compare that to 5 marines with a combi-grav or a pair of specials which would instead be a dead squad.   The tradeoff, of course, is the razorback is more vulnerable to anti-tank weapons.  It's kind of a coin flip, in all honesty.  All the drops in BS that wounds do is try to keep a vehicle in line with the drop in firepower an infantry squad faces as it loses models.

 

And it is a significant amount of firepower.  12 S6 AP-1 shots vs 2-4 S7 AP-3 and 3-6 S4 AP-.  Even with a minus to BS it's doing a lot of damage.

 

That said, I don't think razorbacks are auto include, and marine/scout spam is likely viable, I just like the idea of and how razorbacks play.

[Ishagu]

I wouldn't have a problem either way, I own a lot of them and all varieties of turrets so I'm easy.

I'm just not convinced that they are the new hotness, although no doubt are heavily improved.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Guys, there are more than one response to each situation. Each time we'll try to find THE optimal scénario, someone Will come up with a situation where it doesn't work.

 

Razorbacks are good in a list that plans on tactically dealing with the enemy through firepower then moving up the field as the casualties start to pile.

 

For an aggressive board control, then you need more bodies.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree.

 

Also consider the game is about objectives. Aggressive Board control should be the way to win especially if your opponent's army is flooding the objectives.

[GreyCrow]

It is now indeed, more than over. A healthy amount of troopers is going to be mandatory for matched play now.

 

Which I both like and dislike. It really kills the more unusual lists that we could see end of v7, but is more inline with the fluff.

 

Guess I'm just tried by the Tacticals :P

[utilityzero]

That ork list he posited deals 12 wounds a turn to vehicles on average a turn and does 3 damage a wound. Thats possibly 3 of your razors in a turn.

 

The OP said he is not only concerned with killing orks and 'nids, he's worried about how he deals with a baneblade or a triple baneblade list. The orks, even with their crappy shooting can kill a baneblade a turn. 5 twin AC razors doesn't even cripple one.

 

What do marine players put on the table that can be competitive against both a hoard of orks and a super heavy company?

[GreyCrow]

Super Heavy Company will pretty much have to table you to win without objectives. You only need to have 5 Marines to beat the objective scoring capacity of a Super Heavy Company :P

 

Against hordes, it's slightly different. It's not so much about killing than it is about delaying while you capture objectives.

 

Using superior mobility and concentrated firepower to focus fire at the right time at the right moment.

[Captain Idaho]

People are thinking in terms of previous editions where everyone only considered a single weapon system or unit to combat everything.

 

If you need to take on a Baneblade, hit them with Lascannons and autocannons. The same army can also have some anti infantry weapons and assault units.

 

Remember, even Rhinos have Storm Bolters for killing Orks ;)

 

If people are looking for a magic weapon or unit that does everything like Grav Centurions, then they're likely gling to lose a lot of games.

[GreyCrow]

@Captain, do you mean people will need to use their brain DURING GAMES ?? :O

[Xenith]

I don't understand how this is any different to the past several editions in which someone could take a horde army?

 

For those mobs of 30 orks, kill 15 from a unit and they lose another d6 due to battle shock. kill 19 from the unit and the rest auto die from shock.

 

Snipers to kill the characters.

 

A stormraven with ass cans, typhoon and hurricanes puts out average 43 shots per turn at 12" before you think about the missiles.

 

A crusader, hurricanes, asscan, melta, storm bolter gets you 41 shots.

 

Storm hawk is about 21 or so shots.

 

How does that 186 or army fare against the elite army of land raiders?

 

What's more is that your elite army will have first turn 86% of the time, so you can pick your battles.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Xenith

[Aothaine]

Looked through the index again and I'm seeing only a few units that might be able to handle their poop against hordes. I have included the best, I feel, for handling swarms below.

 

Devastator Squad

Missile Launcher x4

- Frag: Heavy 2d6 S4/AF0/D1

- Krak: Heavy 2 S8/as heck-2/Dd6

Razorback

Twin Assault Cannon

- Heavy 12 S6/as heck-1/D1

 

This squad costs 275

 

I really like the versatility of this load out just keep in mind all these weapons are heavy so you want to get into position and sit. Obviously like everyone is saying you can use multiple Razorbacks. Hell you might even consider just running four of these squads. It would cost you 1100 points but you should be able to fill out three troops and two HQs for 900 I would think. Maybe? Still, if anything gets into melee with this unit it is toast.

 

 

I was checking other armies for their ability and found that you can equip a T'au suit with three flamers. The numbers get pretty crazy when you get five of them in a unit with the fly ability and drone to soak wounds. 

 

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (5 Crisis Suits) - 425 points

- Flamers x15

- MV4 Shield Drone x10

 

This unit gets crazy! They can move 8", advance if necessary, auto hit with 15d6 flamer attacks. Be sure to make it if you are assaulting them that they are within 8" forcing you to either back up to assault or assault within the 8" and take 15d6 auto hit over watch hits. Then if you survive that they attack with 2 attacks each at S5 and have 10 Drones with 4++ saves that they can assign wounds to if you get past their T5. On their turn if they are in melee, they have fly and hop out and wash you with flames again or move to the next unit.

 

Edit:

For educational purposes with Orks. 

Mob Rule: States that a unit that has this ability can either use the number of models in their unit as their leadership or the leadership characteristic of any friendly Ork unit within 6".  Causing extra wounds on these guys from leadership tests is going to be difficult.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Aothaine

[Cleon]

 

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

 

Also lets not pretend getting massive numbers of hits against hordes ever happened in any serious scene because everyone would keep them as spread out as possible meaning at best you usually would only get a couple hits unless you had a really lucky scatter. 

 

Firstly, I'm afraid you've missed my point - a str 4 ap - weapon with a fixed number of hits is equally effective against an Ork as it is a Marine, yes the marine will save half of the time, but the Ork can bring a friend for the same points, so you need to kill two Orks to be as effective against Orks as you are against Marines.

 

Secondly, IF you are seriously telling me that you play on battlefields that have so little terrain that a horde of 150+ Orks can, In an edition where casualties came off from the front, spread out and still be effective (not having to bunch up to make forward progress against the casualty removal, not having to filter through terrain choke points, not trying to force shootas into 18" range), then you are playing such a different game to me that I wouldn't expect to share experiences.