Tactics: Elite vs Swarm Lists

[Lysere]

 

 

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

 

Also lets not pretend getting massive numbers of hits against hordes ever happened in any serious scene because everyone would keep them as spread out as possible meaning at best you usually would only get a couple hits unless you had a really lucky scatter.

Firstly, I'm afraid you've missed my point - a str 4 ap - weapon with a fixed number of hits is equally effective against an Ork as it is a Marine, yes the marine will save half of the time, but the Ork can bring a friend for the same points, so you need to kill two Orks to be as effective against Orks as you are against Marines.

 

Secondly, IF you are seriously telling me that you play on battlefields that have so little terrain that a horde of 150+ Orks can, In an edition where casualties came off from the front, spread out and still be effective (not having to bunch up to make forward progress against the casualty removal, not having to filter through terrain choke points, not trying to force shootas into 18" range), then you are playing such a different game to me that I wouldn't expect to share experiences.

Well 7th edition killed off most of the horde players we had so outside of the odd player you'd never see enough models to have that issue. We play with lots of terrain but again there were never enough models in one spot to usually make it an issue except for against one player. Only true hordes will see their vulnerability to flamers reduced in 8th.

 

Also against marines and orks if you get six wounds you will kill two marines on average, at the same time you will five orks. (Unless they somehow gained a 5+ When I wasn't looking.) While that doesn't seem like much it'll add up the more flamers you use, which is made even worse when you add in heavy flamers which will straight up ignore the orks save while marines still have a 50% chance of saving.

 

Also normal marines don't really count as an elite. They may in the fluff but 3+ armor with 1w isn't exactly an impressive statline. I'd consider things like terminators to be elites and they'd shrug off flamers just fine.

[Brother Sgt Kartr]

 

 

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

 

Also lets not pretend getting massive numbers of hits against hordes ever happened in any serious scene because everyone would keep them as spread out as possible meaning at best you usually would only get a couple hits unless you had a really lucky scatter.

Firstly, I'm afraid you've missed my point - a str 4 ap - weapon with a fixed number of hits is equally effective against an Ork as it is a Marine, yes the marine will save half of the time, but the Ork can bring a friend for the same points, so you need to kill two Orks to be as effective against Orks as you are against Marines.

 

Secondly, IF you are seriously telling me that you play on battlefields that have so little terrain that a horde of 150+ Orks can, In an edition where casualties came off from the front, spread out and still be effective (not having to bunch up to make forward progress against the casualty removal, not having to filter through terrain choke points, not trying to force shootas into 18" range), then you are playing such a different game to me that I wouldn't expect to share experiences.

Casualties don't come off the front, they come off wherever the controlling player wants them to. You expecting to be charged? Take them from the front to increase the enemies charge range. Trying to charge? Take them off the back so you don't lose distance. Don't want to lose that heavy/special weapon? Take from the side.

[Lysere]

 

 

 

Flamers and such are still better against hordes than elites because elites actually have a decent save most of the time, with little to no ap modifier a flamer will kill most horde models it hits, but will only rarely kill an elite, assuming you wound them in the first place.

 

Also lets not pretend getting massive numbers of hits against hordes ever happened in any serious scene because everyone would keep them as spread out as possible meaning at best you usually would only get a couple hits unless you had a really lucky scatter.

Firstly, I'm afraid you've missed my point - a str 4 ap - weapon with a fixed number of hits is equally effective against an Ork as it is a Marine, yes the marine will save half of the time, but the Ork can bring a friend for the same points, so you need to kill two Orks to be as effective against Orks as you are against Marines.

 

Secondly, IF you are seriously telling me that you play on battlefields that have so little terrain that a horde of 150+ Orks can, In an edition where casualties came off from the front, spread out and still be effective (not having to bunch up to make forward progress against the casualty removal, not having to filter through terrain choke points, not trying to force shootas into 18" range), then you are playing such a different game to me that I wouldn't expect to share experiences.

Casualties don't come off the front, they come off wherever the controlling player wants them to. You expecting to be charged? Take them from the front to increase the enemies charge range. Trying to charge? Take them off the back so you don't lose distance. Don't want to lose that heavy/special weapon? Take from the side.

His comment was in reference to 7th edition not 8th.

 

Honestly the change back to owning player getting to pick where to pull models from is the biggest advantage horde armies gained at least in my mind. That wall of heavy flamers isn't going to stop that charge unless you kill everything.

[Quixus]

Honestly the change back to owning player getting to pick where to pull models from is the biggest advantage horde armies gained at least in my mind. That wall of heavy flamers isn't going to stop that charge unless you kill everything.

Which kind of invalidates the purpose of overwatch. Just more throwing dice around for no purpose. The game would be quicker if they just removed overwatch (and improve regular shooting a bit if they really think CC armies are too powerful)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Honestly the change back to owning player getting to pick where to pull models from is the biggest advantage horde armies gained at least in my mind. That wall of heavy flamers isn't going to stop that charge unless you kill everything.

Which kind of invalidates the purpose of overwatch. Just more throwing dice around for no purpose. The game would be quicker if they just removed overwatch (and improve regular shooting a bit if they really think CC armies are too powerful)

 

 

Errr. . . other than reducing the amount of attacks that hit you before you get to strike in the Fight Phase?

[Quixus]

 

 

Honestly the change back to owning player getting to pick where to pull models from is the biggest advantage horde armies gained at least in my mind. That wall of heavy flamers isn't going to stop that charge unless you kill everything.

Which kind of invalidates the purpose of overwatch. Just more throwing dice around for no purpose. The game would be quicker if they just removed overwatch (and improve regular shooting a bit if they really think CC armies are too powerful)

 

 

Errr. . . other than reducing the amount of attacks that hit you before you get to strike in the Fight Phase?

 

19 or 18 Berzerkers charging a Tau unit instead of 20 won't make much of a difference. The Berzerkers not making the charge however means another round of shooting against them.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

 

 

Honestly the change back to owning player getting to pick where to pull models from is the biggest advantage horde armies gained at least in my mind. That wall of heavy flamers isn't going to stop that charge unless you kill everything.

Which kind of invalidates the purpose of overwatch. Just more throwing dice around for no purpose. The game would be quicker if they just removed overwatch (and improve regular shooting a bit if they really think CC armies are too powerful)

 

 

Errr. . . other than reducing the amount of attacks that hit you before you get to strike in the Fight Phase?

 

19 or 18 Berzerkers charging a Tau unit instead of 20 won't make much of a difference. The Berzerkers not making the charge however means another round of shooting against them.

 

If you waited to fire those zerkers until the overwatch step you deserve to be butchered. Is not like tau didn't have enough firepower to wipe pretty much everything.

 

Fire warrior - Ehr, Commander, those berzerkers are approaching at an alarming speed. Shall we open fire?

Tau Commander - Nah, just wait until the last second, that will take'em off guard.

 

Two seconds later...

 

[Confused screaming]

[Quixus]

Sure, if they just sit around doing nothing, but it could just as well that the shot at another dangerous unit. The thing is in 7th edition overwatch was another chance to stop a charge now it isn't (unless you wipe the unit out).

[Catechin]

So, a loadout I was thinking of: company veterans on bikes are only 3pts/model more than standard bikers but come with an extra attack and can take combi-weapons by replacing their chainsword.  However, they can also replace their bolt pistols with items from the melee weapon list, thus being able to retain their chainsword anyways.  So, for 235 points, you get 15 bolters, 5 flamers, and 16 CC attacks on 5 2W T5 bikers.

 

In comparison, for 227 points with regular bikers, you can get 6 bodies with 13 bolters, 3 flamers, and 10 CC attacks.  Or, with inceptors, you would get 3 bodies with 6 HBs (equivalent to, what, 18-ish bolters?).  The veteran biker sergeant is also a great model to put a thunder hammer on if you want a bit more melee presence given his 3 base attacks.

 

While I'm unsure of the usefulness of only having one or two flamers in a unit, at 3+ I'm seeing them start to hit a critical mass where they can actually do significant damage.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Catechin

[Aothaine]

So, a loadout I was thinking of: company veterans on bikes are only 3pts/model more than standard bikers but come with an extra attack and can take combi-weapons by replacing their chainsword.  However, they can also replace their bolt pistols with items from the melee weapon list, thus being able to retain their chainsword anyways.  So, for 235 points, you get 15 bolters, 5 flamers, and 16 CC attacks on 5 2W T5 bikers.

 

In comparison, for 227 points with regular bikers, you can get 6 bodies with 13 bolters, 3 flamers, and 10 CC attacks.  Or, with inceptors, you would get 3 bodies with 6 HBs (equivalent to, what, 18-ish bolters?).  The veteran biker sergeant is also a great model to put a thunder hammer on if you want a bit more melee presence given his 3 base attacks.

 

While I'm unsure of the usefulness of only having one or two flamers in a unit, at 3+ I'm seeing them start to hit a critical mass where they can actually do significant damage.

 

Totally agree with the flamers. You want them on fast units that can have a lot of them. The Tau unit I posted earlier uses 15 flamers. It is crazy because on average it wipes 10 space marines per shooting phase.

 

 

Thank you for sharing those biker units. I'll be using them for sure!

[Captain Idaho]

Sure, if they just sit around doing nothing, but it could just as well that the shot at another dangerous unit. The thing is in 7th edition overwatch was another chance to stop a charge now it isn't (unless you wipe the unit out).

You're talking in absolutes in this subject though. Sure, 20 Khorne Berzerkers aren't going to fear losing a handful of models on Overwatch, but in a game that flows and ebbs, 6 Berzerkers might not be so happy to lose 2 models.

 

Overwatch is powerful and takes its toll on armies, for free.

 

Regardless, this is getting off point.

 

Elite vs Hordes is also something we need to break down into 2. Hordes that want to eat you and hordes that want to shoot you.

 

I have some ideas on this. Dare I say it, but a balanced, traditional Marine list might be rge way forward. Armies that can do a bit of everything. GW's great reform indeed!

 

Hitting the opponent with fire on the way in, followed by a solid counter assault means you can combat the fighty Hordes, whilst that same army can use the counter assault elements to put pressure on the shooty Hordes with supporting fire giving you a return early game.

[Aothaine]

 

Sure, if they just sit around doing nothing, but it could just as well that the shot at another dangerous unit. The thing is in 7th edition overwatch was another chance to stop a charge now it isn't (unless you wipe the unit out).

You're talking in absolutes in this subject though. Sure, 20 Khorne Berzerkers aren't going to fear losing a handful of models on Overwatch, but in a game that flows and ebbs, 6 Berzerkers might not be so happy to lose 2 models.

 

Overwatch is powerful and takes its toll on armies, for free.

 

Regardless, this is getting off point.

 

Elite vs Hordes is also something we need to break down into 2. Hordes that want to eat you and hordes that want to shoot you.

 

I have some ideas on this. Dare I say it, but a balanced, traditional Marine list might be rge way forward. Armies that can do a bit of everything. GW's great reform indeed!

 

Hitting the opponent with fire on the way in, followed by a solid counter assault means you can combat the fighty Hordes, whilst that same army can use the counter assault elements to put pressure on the shooty Hordes with supporting fire giving you a return early game.

 

 

This is something that I am still trying to get used to and agree with as well. A good all-comers elite list is going to need elements of shooting and charging and it might be necessary to design the list to setup fire bases and protect those rather than full out assaulting the hordes. There is a good devastator squad, imho, that I posted a few pages back that uses missile launchers to help with both anti-horde and vehicles. 

 

I'm currently working on a list that incorporates the veteran biker unit above with the devastator squads being 10 man and splitting into 5 man squads, with the 5 man squads going into the razorbacks to move up field a bit and create a buffer for the heavy support teams which have plenty of range to sit back a bit and fire. Using the 5 man devs without heavy weapons to soak charges and have the veteran bikers counter-charge. 

 

I'll get the list up when I can but I'm still worried about horde lists. I understand that asking an elite army to be able to handle them entirely is a bit silly but at least having a path to victory in every situation would be nice. I'm not looking for a landslide victory you know?

 

I am pretty sold on the Razorbacks though. They're quite hardy and with the twin assault cannons can put out some decent fire as well as transport my combat squads around to try and claim objectives and help prevent charges, etc. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Aothaine

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Buy a Fire Raptor.

 

They arent relic, so no limits on them.

 

They vomit 30+ s5 minimum shots per shooting phase.

[Aothaine]

Just watched a bat rep using Grey Knight Terminators vs Necrons. The Grey Knights won 13 - 1 in kill points and ended with The Grey Knights nearly tabling the Necron forces. Things might not be as bleak as they seem. Then again, it was Grey Knights. I have run some numbers with a unit of 30 Boyz crashing into a 8 man unit of Custodes. Oddly enough the Custodes come out on top. Now this makes me happy as I have chosen to run Custodes in 8th it does not ease my concern for the new primaris marines.

 

Something else I noticed is that Apothecaries are really strong when supporting units with a 2+/5++ save. Watching that T5 model with a 2+/5++ rise back up with one more wound is brutal. 

[Prot]

On this topic I appear to be a fan of a unit no one else seems to like... I'm using 1-2 typhoon speeders. This is in my all comers list. And it's no slouch for range, hordes or hard targets.

 

Call me crazy, but I really like it.

 

Second unit I like is the Stormhawk. A lot of people like the Stormtalon which is also very flexible but to be honest I like staying supersonic. Without firing archs and gun points I have no issue practicing a zig zag pattern that allow me to shoot at full effect.

 

I still think people are over looking the flexibility of typhoons on your favourite vehicle of choice ( be it a flyer or speeder). The problem I have is being careless with my movements. I find people look at them like it's 7th ed and then once it fires they snap out of it and try to kill it ASAP.

 

At the end of the day a very simple remedy I'm really liking is anything with Hurricanes. Just really good low end volume for the points.

[GreyCrow]

@Prot : Typhoon Speeders are love, Typhoon Speeders are life.

 

Used 2 of them super effectively at 1000 points so far, they cost so much, but they are sufficiently brutal to be worth it !

[Aothaine]

Good to hear that there are a few more options on the tables for anti-horde than just flamers. Keep the research coming!

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Edit: I ask this because I am planning on having an all Primaris army and possibly some other elite lists as well. Not trying to be like "Ohhh look at me and my unbeatable list!" I am just having problems thinking of ways to build an all-comers list that has the tools to work against hordes and elite lists.

 

 

 

From reading the thread and trying to understand what is best to take in elite army.

 

Summary

* typhoon land speeder

* razorback with assault cannon (can be taken by units so even primaris can take it but not be in it)

* TFC

* some flamers

[GreyCrow]

@Mechanicus : The best thing to take for an elite army is elilte units :P

 

You have no 'best' choices ;) If your elite army faces an even more elite army with tons of dakka (Broadsides Wing for example), you'll want a healthy dose of anti big stuff like Lascans.

 

It's really about providing your Marines with the support units that support them the best depending on how you gear them and how you want to play them.

 

For instance, my Tactics due to the 7thmeta I was in are highly geared for anti strong stuff. Therefore, a healthy dose of anti mooks on my support units do wonders :P

[Claws and Effect]

Typhoon speeders sound good, but what about the Tempest?

 

Missile launcher + asscan sounds pretty good if the points cost wasn't jacked up too much.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I really would like to use typhoons as a mobile fire support platform but dumping 100+ points into a unit that wants to be moving all the time that suffers a -1 to hit for doing so, concerns me.  I have 12 speeders from building an Ironwolves list that I would love to get some use out of.

[autek mor]

double storm cannon array relic leviathan definitely should be considered. it can throw out 20 Str7, -2Ap, 2 wound shots hitting on 2+ until you lose 7 of its 14 wounds. good against horde, and tough targets for roughly the same amount of points it cost it had in 7th ed. if you are concerned about getting charged then switch the two heavy bolters for heavy flamers. T8, 2+ save with a 4+ invul adds some nice durability.

Edited June 22, 2017 by autek mor

[chapter master 454]

Are we talking about tactics to help counteract or we talking about finding something that shouldn't exist, a silver bullet. The list mentioned is indeed quite fearsome however we are assuming it will not take hits like anyone else. Those rokkits are doing their job, hurting tanks and that is somehow bad? So why don't we stop talking in 'We need silver bullet unit' and more talk about the actual method of combating them.

 

In regards to dealing with massed armies lets remember a few things: Lots of attacks (ranged or melee) are needed, Tar pit is still a thing and is because any horde army will not have regular ability to re-engage (unless your guard but even then, that's a different beast all together) and since they must end their move AWAY from you, ensure units maintain proximity to force them off or away and finally, get some fire on those pesky units. Everyone seems to talk about how a land raider doesn't get a shout in any of this or how they can kill a tank a turn well guess what, so can we if you use those pieces of metal you are carrying, they didn't kill you turn 1 so act like it and return fire like a human being. If those rokkits got you scared bundle up some good ranged weapons like heavy bolters or frag missiles and remove them because lets all remember: Ork armour sucks.

Chewing through that number of boys is challenging yes but do remember that each turn you can whittle it down and the only turn that matters for objectives is the last one when it ends which can be 5 or even up to 7. We may not be able to wipe them out turn 1 but like the new bigger units are now, we can certainly hamstring a few.

 

So instead of trying to find a unit that just kneecaps an army, start talking about certain combination of units that one can bring to the table in a list. Those Orks didn't bring those tankbustas because they look pretty but because they have a job: kill big things. Similarly we have things like Whirlwinds and Thunderfire cannons along with various other options for trimming hordes and various specialists. May be pricey but try carting around a Crusader filled with 8 lightning claw terminators, they will mince any large squad easily with few losses. Crusader may be going down from them rokkits but I doubt they can put down a crusader so easily especially if they only have 24" range because that is another assumption we are making: All weapons are in range of everything. You honestly going to plank down your crusader next to their ball of tank bustas if they bunch them up? No. If they don't and spread them then you only face a few each turn and it takes only a few losses to put holes in the anti-tank.

 

Similarly their blobs are their main victory condition. Bolter Blitz is a thing along with various other tools of the trade like mentioned in this thread. TFCs do not need to see the target and thus putting it behind a stonking big bit of cover that covers it entirely from sight is one way to help put pressure on them, since it can target whatever it likes which includes tankbustas or whatever you want it to with the best armour save in the game (and I mean not getting shot at by that).

 

However this is again becoming silver bullet talk but similarly, the aforementioned expensive Crusader Wolverine strike force is not only good at slicing up mobs but also being a very solid line-breaker in general. This can become something you pivot on when building an army: A central unit that allows to you build from there. This then leads to refinement, we may find that 8 wolverines is not needed really to be effective and cutting into the budget, so we reallocate resources and thus decide on a 5 man inside a phobos (that is the normal land raider for those not in the know). Not exactly the best at anti-horde but can cut their numbers down and is a threat to anything as the twin HB will chip them down, the Godhammers will take aim at ether larger targets or merely add additional firepower. Support this with ranged firepower, bring them good ol' grav-turions out and get them to work as now grav has been buffed vs. light targets while still retaining a really good rate of fire (4 shots with those grav-cannons) while they can also bring ether their rather nifty new launchers or some standard hurricanes, depending on how you feel.

Central to this, bring a nice core of tactical marines, armed however you please but bring a good mix. If you want a safe bet bring Missile Launchers and Plasma cannons backed by Plasma guns and Flamers (with maybe a sprinkle of grav, both heavy and rapid alike). The sergeants can even bring their own boltguns to help things along by allowing you extra shots. Pack a couple of Captains to let your tacticals gain some buff and have those captains also get those master boltguns going alongside the gun lines. Every ork down is one less to deal with.

 

Finally cap it off with maybe some saucy side dish unit, something out of left field. Dreadnoughts are a good choice and give you something to further pivot your forces on when getting up board however do lack any ability of getting around. A choice of flyers can often mess your opponents up, some strafing runs always work wonders. Maybe a back-up squad of tactical terminators with a cyclone missile launcher? Not exactly melee gods but those storm bolters could be nasty and if you feel spicy with ether terminator squad in this choice that new teleport homer is the ultimate in tactical withdrawal tech. Ultimately your choice really. Kind of just spit balling here so not sure on points, will do a mock up after posting this and edit in a result. If I overstepping then...well consider it a goof on my end.

 

Edit: Quick spit ball list of what one could do. A list designed to maintain high rate of fire with consideration for other lists.

 

Battalion

Captain with MC Boltgun and Power sword 81pts

Captain with MC Boltgun and Power sword 81pts

 

5 Man assault terminator squad, 4 paired claws and 1 Hammer and Shield 232pts

5 man terminator squad, Cyclone Missile Launcher 274 points

 

10 man tactical with Plasma Cannon and Plasma gun, Sergeant has power sword and Storm Bolter 170pts

10 man tactical with Missile Launcher and Plasma gun, Sergeant has power sword and Storm Bolter 174pts

10 man tactical with Missile Launcher and Plasma gun, Sergeant has power sword and Storm Bolter 174pts

 

Centurion Devastator Squad, All Grav-cannons and hurricanes 291pts

Land Raider with storm bolter 349pts

 

Razorback with Twin Heavy Boltgun 82pts

Razorback with Twin Heavy Boltgun 82pts

 

Nothing special really but looks solid to me. Got to remember that no list is invincible and does have a weakness. Goes both ways and I feel this list could get somewhere against the orks listed here while maintaining a solid front foot against most else.

Edited June 24, 2017 by chapter master 454

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If we're really going to dig into anti-horde tactics rather than just brainstorming good weapons or unit combinations, then I just want to mention that you absolutely must be willing to charge a mob.  Don't just give them a speed bump to run into, but actively throw a chaff squad into them.  There are a few reasons I utilize this tactic and suggest it.

 

1. Psychological warfare: players who push these massive, fearless blob squads across the table expect people to be afraid of them and to avoid them at all costs.  It completely throws them off their game when you assault them.  Never underestimate how important that can be.  In the military, we call it "interrupting the OODA loop" (OODA = Observe, Orient, Decide, Act; basically the way people make measured decisions).  In essence, you're not attacking the enemy's troops, you're attacking the enemy's plan.

 

2. Maximize killing potential: By charging the orks, you get to strike first, killing some orks before they have the chance to fight any of your models.  This also allows you to kill some orks in a phase other than the shooting phase.

 

3. Prevent further movement: Ideally, your assaulting squad is either durable enough or numerous enough to survive at least one round of combat with a mob.  This locks the orks in place, preventing them from closing further on your gunline for one turn.  Now whether your squad survives the second round of combat and falls back or dies messily to the orks, either way that mob is now free on your turn to take another shooting phase's worth of firepower.  You can even rinse and repeat if your pest problem hasn't been solved.

[StrummersGhost]

I'll soon be facing off against 1500 points of Orks so this thread has been pretty useful and given me some food for thought. My experience against hordes has always been in 7th ed, where I favoured massed firepower. My resident Ork player always used trukks to get up the field, and I'd always try to pop these early on to slow him down. Given that trukks are more resilient to being one shotted I can't rely on that tactic anymore. Albeit they cost more in points now so I doubt I'll see them being spammed.

 

I've made a first draft list, which contains a Whirlwind. However I'm considering swapping it out for a TFC. Would anyone here choose one over the other? They both fill a similar role, I've gone for the whirlwind initially just due to the extra wounds and resilience should the horde manage to get close to it.