Tactics: Elite vs Swarm Lists

[chapter master 454]

I'll soon be facing off against 1500 points of Orks so this thread has been pretty useful and given me some food for thought. My experience against hordes has always been in 7th ed, where I favoured massed firepower. My resident Ork player always used trukks to get up the field, and I'd always try to pop these early on to slow him down. Given that trukks are more resilient to being one shotted I can't rely on that tactic anymore. Albeit they cost more in points now so I doubt I'll see them being spammed.

 

I've made a first draft list, which contains a Whirlwind. However I'm considering swapping it out for a TFC. Would anyone here choose one over the other? They both fill a similar role, I've gone for the whirlwind initially just due to the extra wounds and resilience should the horde manage to get close to it.

 

TFCs and Whirlwinds share an interesting difference in statlines. First off, something I have noticed is no-one have ever mentioned one thing with TFCs: the techmarine can repair the gun. If they don't one shot it, the gun can be repaired and thus give it more time (as it doesn't block firing the gun to repair). That's one thing to remember but here is another:

 

A castellen missile launcher does 2D6 str6 AP0 D1 shots while a TFC does 4D3 Str5 AP0 D1 shots. Both can lob over things making them easy to hide from fire (TFC especially due to small profile) and since their difference in strength is 1, the only time a Castellen will get something over the TFC is if you fire it at guardsmen. In regards to Orks, there is a clear winner: TFC as it averages more hits per salvo than the whirlwind with castellen. (TFC averages 8 vs whirlwind average of 7) thus giving the TFC an advantage in the longer game giving you 3-4 extra shots before being dealt with (which could be the deal breaker). On top of this the TFC does come with complimentary Techmarine who can just do his own thing after the gun is down and with a full servo-harness, that is a fair bit (and that 2+ save bear in mind).

 

However Whirlwinds are now incredible when you bring their now vastly improved vengence missiles which are just auto-cannons with indirect fire. This has moved the whirlwind from anti-infantry to anti-tank very well and is something I think we could talk about here actually since the question is answered.

 

Anyone notice that anti-horde went down when we lost the vindicator and whirlwind who are now much better anti-tank than they were in any version prior. Just food for thought: 2 anti-horde tanks moved to anti-tank could be another reason for percieved horde strength.

[StrummersGhost]

 

 

I'll soon be facing off against 1500 points of Orks so this thread has been pretty useful and given me some food for thought. My experience against hordes has always been in 7th ed, where I favoured massed firepower. My resident Ork player always used trukks to get up the field, and I'd always try to pop these early on to slow him down. Given that trukks are more resilient to being one shotted I can't rely on that tactic anymore. Albeit they cost more in points now so I doubt I'll see them being spammed.

 

I've made a first draft list, which contains a Whirlwind. However I'm considering swapping it out for a TFC. Would anyone here choose one over the other? They both fill a similar role, I've gone for the whirlwind initially just due to the extra wounds and resilience should the horde manage to get close to it.

TFCs and Whirlwinds share an interesting difference in statlines. First off, something I have noticed is no-one have ever mentioned one thing with TFCs: the techmarine can repair the gun. If they don't one shot it, the gun can be repaired and thus give it more time (as it doesn't block firing the gun to repair). That's one thing to remember but here is another:

 

A castellen missile launcher does 2D6 str6 AP0 D1 shots while a TFC does 4D3 Str5 AP0 D1 shots. Both can lob over things making them easy to hide from fire (TFC especially due to small profile) and since their difference in strength is 1, the only time a Castellen will get something over the TFC is if you fire it at guardsmen. In regards to Orks, there is a clear winner: TFC as it averages more hits per salvo than the whirlwind with castellen. (TFC averages 8 vs whirlwind average of 7) thus giving the TFC an advantage in the longer game giving you 3-4 extra shots before being dealt with (which could be the deal breaker). On top of this the TFC does come with complimentary Techmarine who can just do his own thing after the gun is down and with a full servo-harness, that is a fair bit (and that 2+ save bear in mind).

 

However Whirlwinds are now incredible when you bring their now vastly improved vengence missiles which are just auto-cannons with indirect fire. This has moved the whirlwind from anti-infantry to anti-tank very well and is something I think we could talk about here actually since the question is answered.

 

Anyone notice that anti-horde went down when we lost the vindicator and whirlwind who are now much better anti-tank than they were in any version prior. Just food for thought: 2 anti-horde tanks moved to anti-tank could be another reason for percieved horde strength.

Thanks for the insights! I've got a few other anti-armour options in the list, so I might go with the TFC in place of the whirlwind. Like you say it's small enough it can be hidden and still hit its target whilst potentially being repaired. I hadn't really considered that aspect of it!

 

In regards to vindicators, I've always been an iron hands player and would run 3 of them in a list. Primarily I'd use them for taking out infantry but since 8th. I'll likely use them for anti-armour or against multi wound high toughness models. To me at least, it seems like their natural niche role now. It's an interesting suggestion though that this shift in their usefulness might have an effect on the threat of horde lists being increased. I can see that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There's actually a discussion of the Vindicator in the Chaos Marine subforum, and the general consensus seems to be that is neither an ideal anti-tank or anti-personnel platform.  Its short range combined with the move & shoot to hit penalty and its generally small number of shots make it less appealing in either role than other choices.  Personally -- although I'll probably not be playing my Iron Hands for a while -- I don't intend to take my Vindicator out to play.  I'd rather have a Predator or Devastators for anti-tank and a pair of TFC plus infantry for anti-personnel work.

[StrummersGhost]

There's actually a discussion of the Vindicator in the Chaos Marine subforum, and the general consensus seems to be that is neither an ideal anti-tank or anti-personnel platform. Its short range combined with the move & shoot to hit penalty and its generally small number of shots make it less appealing in either role than other choices. Personally -- although I'll probably not be playing my Iron Hands for a while -- I don't intend to take my Vindicator out to play. I'd rather have a Predator or Devastators for anti-tank and a pair of TFC plus infantry for anti-personnel work.

I think Ill go and have a read of that. Agreed the 24 inch range is not ideal. I'm kind of holding out hope that when the codex arrives, the "fast" vindicator will be a thing again and negate the minus to hit penalty for moving.

 

As a side note just yesterday I bought my first ever predator haha.

 

Back to the horde issue though, I'll be playing the orks next week and using TFC, assault cannon razor backs and primaris inceptors amongst other units. So can report back here on how effective I found everything.

[ak-73]

Alright, I'll put in my two cents with 2 general, but fundamental, observations.

 

1. There are 3 types of relevant targets now: horde, elite (as defined by: possibly high T, possibly good saves, possible more than 1 wound), monsters/vehicles. An all-comers list must be capable of defeating any of those. But this in turn implies that any army that can bring only one type of target for the enemy while retaining an array of weapons that can take on all three is at an inherent advantage.
2. S5 wounds T4 on a 3+ and T8 on a 5+. This is significant and it makes high volume of S5 fire potent against a wide range of targets. High volume S6 is also good, if it's not too expensive, for wounding on 2+ against T3.

#1 implies that horde armies are, indeed, possibly undercosted. It also implies that spam builds that can field all-comers weaponry are best, even for marines. #2 implies to spam Grav-Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, etc.

[Captain Idaho]

I like the look of a Whirlwind as a great support vehicle.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

I like the look of a Whirlwind as a great support vehicle.

In my game launch weekend I took a whirlwind. It performed ok against the marine army I was facing. I took out quite a few when rolling 12 on the 2d6.

[Aothaine]

Alright, I'll put in my two cents with 2 general, but fundamental, observations.

 

1. There are 3 types of relevant targets now: horde, elite (as defined by: possibly high T, possibly good saves, possible more than 1 wound), monsters/vehicles. An all-comers list must be capable of defeating any of those. But this in turn implies that any army that can bring only one type of target for the enemy while retaining an array of weapons that can take on all three is at an inherent advantage.
2. S5 wounds T4 on a 3+ and T8 on a 5+. This is significant and it makes high volume of S5 fire potent against a wide range of targets. High volume S6 is also good, if it's not too expensive, for wounding on 2+ against T3.

#1 implies that horde armies are, indeed, possibly undercosted. It also implies that spam builds that can field all-comers weaponry are best, even for marines. #2 implies to spam Grav-Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, etc.

 

The assault cannon razorbacks are something a lot of people are looking into for this exact reason. I'm thinking running 3 Devastator squads in those razor backs will provide quite a bit of horde/tank/MC removal. 

 

Others are mentioning weaponry that has d* attacks. The problem with most of those weapons is you still have to roll to hit. Flamers are an exception to the d* attack weapons being back because of auto-hits. I am not a fan of any-non auto hit weapon that has to roll for it's # of attacks.

 

Missile Launchers are your friends. Don't forget you can move and fire heavy weapons now. They are great because of their duality of being able to crush large targets with their d6 damage and their ability to handle hordes.

 

This also leads to the question of how much reliability are you going to risk in order to have a weapon that can target multiple enemies effectively?

Edited June 28, 2017 by Aothaine

[ak-73]

 

This also leads to the question of how much reliability are you going to risk in order to have a weapon that can target multiple enemies effectively?

 

You could seek reliability in numbers. As Grav-cannons are the best overall heavy weapon (useful against hordes, elites and vehicles/monsters, you can forfeit command points and get some reliability by spamming Twin-AC Razorbacks stuffed with Grav-Devastators inside till the cows come home. (It's not entirely ideal because you have two different unit types yourself though.)

 

Also see: http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/space-marine-weapon-options-8th-edition-warhammer-40k/

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

how about using eversor assassin in an elite army? viable against horde armies?

[ak-73]

Well, he's the anti-horde assassin. The one caveat is that with horde armies is might make more sense to target buff characters instead. Conscript meme spam is way less effective withotu commissars.

[Schlitzaf]

I might have missed it but what does everyone consider to be a horde? In terms of model count?

[ak-73]

I might have missed it but what does everyone consider to be a horde? In terms of model count?

it's not clearly defined. IG Conscripts, Ork Boyz, Termagants/Hormagaunts are certainly horde, if spammed. SM Scouts are probably too good/expensive for horde.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's also not simply numbers that make hordes such a threat.  You could put a hundred Chaos Cultists on the table for a reasonable price point, too, but they won't pose nearly the same issue as 100 hormagaunts.  The problem is the combination of numbers with speed, or durability, or both.  And by durability, I actually mean "morale immunity."  All those Cultists?  Blow half the a squad of 40 off the table and a significant number are likely to run in the morale phase.  Gaunts?  Synapse.  Conscripts?  Commissars.  My first impression of the new morale rules was that they were supposed to help curb horde armies by giving you an additional means of culling those squads, but the units that you need to fail morale the most are all basically immune to morale.

 

That's the killer.

[Brother Aiwass]

Besides poxwalkers, all other hordes immunitiy to morale can be killed. So take a Command detachment, fill it with TDA sorcs and Smite the hell out of commisars, nobs and synapse bugs.

[PeteySödes]

Besides poxwalkers, all other hordes immunitiy to morale can be killed. So take a Command detachment, fill it with TDA sorcs and Smite the hell out of commisars, nobs and synapse bugs.

 

Smite's a bit difficult due to the closest restriction. If you can maneuver yourself to use it like you said, your opponent has way bigger issues...

[Claws and Effect]

Poxwalkers are totally immune to morale.

 

Conscripts and gaunts are not.

 

Simply take along a Vindicare or two, or scouts and snipe the goobers providing morale immunity.

 

You know. Kill the officers. Like a sniper is supposed to do.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That's nice. But what about chaos players who don't have access to snipers?

[The Catachan Devil]

What about going the complete opposite strategy?

Take extreme elite units, super low model and unit count with as much armor, wounds, and damage output in is little space as possible. Now the mass of low power shots won't find efficient targets, while the enemy's anti vehicle/monster weapons get overwhelmed. In close combat the enemy will be unable to get all his models within range, wasting a ton of attacks. By deploying everything into a small area, and keeping half the army in deep strike reserve, many of the enemy's units will be out of position to do anything, yet deep strike, teleport homers and jump packs still allow you to secure objectives.

In addition, a small elite army will always finish deployment first, getting first turn advantage.

 

You would go with Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, Primaris, Characters, Imperial Knights, or equivalent units for other armies.

Tried this tactic. Baneblade Vs Ork horde. 

 

Long Batrep short. Smashed up the majority of his army, then G.Thraka jumped out of his BWagon with his meganobz and pimp slapped me. 

 

The issue with your idea is that you're putting you're eggs in one basket. Once they have surrounded you. You're pretty screwed regardless how many wounds you have, The weight of attacks will drown you. 

[Aothaine]

 

The issue with your idea is that you're putting you're eggs in one basket. Once they have surrounded you. You're pretty screwed regardless how many wounds you have, The weight of attacks will drown you. 

 

 

This is why I started this topic. We have a few different ways to deal with hordes. Assaulting them is almost entirely suicide. Most horde armies want to get into melee. There are a few units you can kit out to handle hordes in melee however they become almost useless against MEQ and Vehicles/Monsters. 

 

Ex. Death Company - Chainsword+Bolt Pistols - Keep them cheap and load them up to max size so you can try and survive the overwatch you will end up taking.

 

Assault Terminators - Double Lightning Claw - Though I would say this unit is far to expensive to deal with hordes.

 

Your best bet is to rock the below unit and disembark as close to the enemy as possible.

 

Dev Squad (5-man)

Cherub

Combi-flamer (Sgt)

Heavy Flamer x4

 

Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon

[Alcyon]

Have we talked about Allies? Using the indices it's pretty easy to add Astra Militarum and you get the opportunity to add a lot of anti-horde for very cheap. Between the Inferno Cannon suddenly becoming a viable TAC option, Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers, plus access to Wyverns and very cheap Mortar Squads without having to take tax infantry, it seems like a great option.

[Aothaine]

Have we talked about Allies? Using the indices it's pretty easy to add Astra Militarum and you get the opportunity to add a lot of anti-horde for very cheap. Between the Inferno Cannon suddenly becoming a viable TAC option, Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers, plus access to Wyverns and very cheap Mortar Squads without having to take tax infantry, it seems like a great option.

 

Was mainly focused on using the elite aspect to tackle horde armies. Allies are a good addition but you need to be careful. With the codecs coming out you might lose good buffs allying in other factions. But it also might be totally worth it. 

[Alcyon]

Fair enough, and yeah, we'll have to see what the impact of new army rules/CT is. I think the Ultramarine one as an example will help against shooty hordes, the option to move, shoot, charge to deny shooting and then fall back to shoot again seems good. Without allies we may have to end up doing our own bubble-wrapping, likely with Scouts, to absorb charges and fall back against assaulty hordes so we can continue to shoot. 

 

Tarantula Sentry Guns might be a good option here, you can take twin Assault Cannons for 40pts less than a Razorback, in units of 3, for the price of 4+ BS (though if the Razorback is moving it's a moot comparison.) Dreadnoughts look like a good option too, between regular (3x Heavy Flamer), Ironclad (Hurricane Bolter) or Siege (Inferno Cannon). No need for Venerable status as the BS doesn't matter, and if the hordes are charging you there's no need for a drop-pod either, which are OOP by Forgeworld anyway.

 

I think the biggest issue is that you can't tailor your list to be anti-horde if you expect to play a range of opponents. If you're at ITC or something and hordes are competitive (which we expect them to be), regular Flamers and Heavy Bolters are going to be weak against other elite armies, especially those with minimal infantry. I think that limits our potential weapon options to Heavy Flamers and greater, and it also makes me think that we should mitigate our elite status by running more infantry of our own. The IG forum is wild about Leman Russ Punishers and that's just 10 Bolter marines within 12" stapled to a turret, except with only BS 4+ re-rolling ones. 

 

I'd picture a solid C:SM TAC list featuring 4+ MSU Tactical Squads in Rhinos or RBs with Assault Cannons (if you have the slots, multiple free Sergeants are great) or Scout Squads (some Snipers would be good vs. Commissioners etc.) and a regular Dreadnought with Heavy Flamer & Assault Cannon. I think that'd probably do ok vs. hordes, and then you can season other units in to your taste. Most HQs, Elites and Heavy Support seem like a waste vs. infantry to me or aren't flexible enough to swap roles if you face other types of armies. 

[ak-73]

I am running 10 Tactical Terminators with 2 ACs, backed by a Droppod with Deathwind with Kantor and Grav-Devs in them. Grav is useful against all enemy models, Storm Bolters are quite good against hordes, even better with Kantor, and 10 power fists, rerollable to-hit and additional attack each, is nothing that non-hordes can sneeze at either. I support these deep strikers with highly mobile on-field units. The basic idea is to eliminate whatever is near the deepstrikers when they come down. If that gives me a turn to deal with the rest, all the better.

[Alcyon]

That sounds awesome. The alpha strike should punch a big hole, and the Terminators should be able to bubblewrap the Grav team and get bonus attacks from Pedro. I have been thinking more in terms of Company Veterans with Plasma and Lias Issodon, but with Drop Pods being so expensive now it helps justify Terminators for chapters without infiltration options. That said, I would probably still prefer lots of Bolter Scouts and reinvesting the points in other supporting units (Vanguards, Anti-Tank.)