Ravenwing - Thoughts

[dtse]

hey guys, so played some games with Ravenwing...here are my preliminary thoughts

 

 

Sammy - beast.  He's cheaper and he's better.  So fast with the auto 2d6" advance.  Plasma cannon is ok, you won't ever supercharge it.  Ravenwing now plays in tight ball like never before, with shroud and sammy giving vital buffs all with 6" reach.  daisy chain like mad! His sword is now great, but even better if you charge.  He is FLYING too because of corvex so he can fall back and still shoot.

 

Interrogator Chaplain - hes beast now. definitely go for the fist, the crozius really lacklustre, unless we see mace of redemption return when our codex comes out, i think fist is the way to go.  His litanies of hate is just awesome, since it not just the first turn of combat now.  Definite auto-take basically.  I was putting him up against ravenwing champion, but you know, with fist he hits just as hard and those buffs are just too awesome.

 

Librarian - I think every army needs at least 1 psyker to deny stuff and cast powers.  Smite is just too useful even if you don't use interromancy. Aversion is good, especially on a key shooting unit in combination with dark shroud. Other 2 are meh.  Bike gives him more survivability, but he still suffers from lack of invuln.  

 

Ravenwing ancient - banner is decent, +1 attack, but again, you are lumping a whole bunch of characters all in the middle now (sammy, chaplain, ancient, shroud).  He's tougher than a normal black knight, which is nice, but he's more than double the price.  But i think +1 attack to all your bikes is worth it

 

Black Knights - I think they are too expensive now. They went up 10 points from 7th. but went down in efficacy.  Hammers are good for chaff, but will struggle to deal with even rhinos.  Rending is now d3 damage, but still only at -1 rend.  Plasma talons are better.  without the need for 9" range, its just assault 2.  Goes well with advancing since that's our JINK now, so stay close to sammy to reroll.  But still, plasma is only 1 damage (and rerolls give you more chances of hitting 1s), so will struggle against multiwound things. It took 15 black knights to bring a rhino down to 2 wounds....thats not good.

 

Ravenwing Bikers - I think they got better.  They are pretty cheap, they can shoot their heavy weapons AND twin boltguns.  I think melta is the way to go as a pure ravenwing army really lacks ability to deal multiple wounds. And now taking chainswords gives these guys decent number of attacks.

 

Attack Bikes - the curse of the melta is still strong.  Stick close to sammy to reroll or use that CP. i find attack bikes always lacklustre and they suck bags in combat

 

Darkshroud - I think its worth taking, 1 of.  2 is overkill due to points. You won't get a lot in a ravenwing army at 2000 points.  And it DOESNT stack (it WILL be FAQd).  It has to stay central.  If you got points, put assault cannon on it, but otherwise just stock heavy bolter.  It's not that hard to kill though, and will be a target.  -1 to hit roll for shooting is sweet though

 

Vengeance - never used it, but again, its ravenwing only multi-wound dealing thing, might be worth it, I think it will be lacklustre

 

Dark Talon - this thing is the bomb now (literally the stasis bomb), but I feel it a little little bit expensive.  Super fast flyer, and hurricane bolters just wreck chaff, especially with strafing run meaning hits on 2s.  Rift cannon is hit or miss.  Heavy 3 would be nice, but its heavy d3.  Stasis bomb just wrecks chaff as well. Still its our only model that does mortal wounds (except librarian). I think it's worth it for the anti-chaff ability alone, but ravenwing does have a lot of anti-chaff. I would actually splash the dark talon into deathwing/greenwing for the anti-chaff.

 

 

Overall, I used to play my ravenwing aggressively in 7th, pushing up and advancing and alpha striking with very strong plasma talons.  You can't do that anymore.  Unless your just facing chaff, you WILL get wrecked by lots of things.  And you will wilt in close combat to anything with decent attacks.  You are, after all, just marines.  You must play in a daisy chain formation around your characters and the shroud, which actually limits your mobility.  But so does everyone else, since that seems to be how 8th edition works with characters giving aura buffs.I think you have to be very smart with how you move now, whereas before with the rerollable jink you can be fairly aggressive, advancing, taking a hit to your hit rolls, and then having only 5+ invuln is a lot worse than our ravenwing rule in 7th.  If jink was 4+ would be way better.  Keep in mind, unless you splash greenwing, you will have NO INFANTRY, so you can't hold the relic, you don't benefit from terrain cover, etc..  

[Chaplain Lucifer]

So basically it's a throw back to 3rd/4th edition where Ravenwing was a thinking man's army, where you had to plan every move because jinking wasn't good but now we do have some new toys instead of just bikes, attack bikes and Land speders.

[shabbadoo]

And all bike models now have +1 wound, which is a notable change. Toughness 5 and 2 wounds is rather good now, and helps with being outnumbered in a way that wasn't present before so far as staying power is concerned. Only the nastiest of weapons can take down bikes with one shot now. Jinking gives a -1 to be hit and a Darkshroud gives a further -1 to be hit. All Black Knights can Advance and still fire at -1 while gaining advancing of both effects. Others can gain both if they give up firing, but can still fire without penalty if they don't Jink and so only gain the Darkshroud benefit. Add in cover and you have -3 to be hit in total, which will gut the shooting capability of any unit. Penalties to be hit are outright defensively effective. With a bike costing 2.5 times as much as a Tactical Marine, there will definitely be some thinking required as to application of concentrated force though.

I think I have all of that right.

***Edit: Nope. Not at all. The new game is so simple it is hard to remember! I NEED A HARD COPY ASAP!!!

[aekold]

Jinking does not give you -1 to hit. Jinking gives you a 5++ if you advanced in the previous turn.

 

Cover does not give you -1 to hit, but increases your armour save with +1.

 

Main concern for ravenwing in my eyes is the reliable delivery of multi melta's. The fact that a MM attack bike costs 73 points and suffers from a -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting a heavy weapons means that you will only hit on 4+ makes them very expensive in my eyes for a unit that only works 50% of the time. Hits increase to 75% if sammael is around, but this requires more points.

 

I think that speeders with heavy bolters and assault cannons are going to be the workhorse of ravenwing forces.

[SnakeChisler]

Apparently bikes can't go up on buildings

 

Currently if a model is on the 1st floor your technically within an inch but this caused a massive argument when I pointed this out, now I haven't modelled my bases for advantage for this in any way but it really needs clarification.

 

Sammael has the Keyword Fly as well as Biker so can attack flyers and go on buildings it also allows him to disengage from combat shoot and charge back in again. The storm bolter is twin so rapid 4 for 8 shots close in, his charge ability is S*2 +1 for the sword so s9 on the charge with 2 damage.

 

Were back into your opponent putting objectives on 2nd floors of buildings again so you can never score them

 

Speeders seem good at 1st sight but T5 and 85 points base + 2 HB's is 105 a pop

In comparison

Razor is 82 with dual HB has 10 wounds is T7 can still move 12 both are heavy

Dread with dual Autocannon 136 Las-Missile 155

 

Bike squads are pretty OK with the bikes able to guard the Melta AB and bolter spam against hordes is useful especially twin linked, rubbish at combat to be used as a last resort.  

 

Apothecary on Bike is neat as he has a decent gun combat weapon and can keep your characters topped up

Champion is over priced

Ancient is situational & overpriced

 

Black Knights kill lots of stuff but are a tad overpriced though needed in a primarily ravenwing force

 

Dark Shroud is an auto include don't upgrade the HB always advance so it has a 5+ invun

 

Dark Talon - expensive but on the right targets is deadly with mortal wounds from the rift vortex

 

Given the fact we have rights of Battle on Sam then a mixed force taking a bulk of Ravenwing is going to be neat

 

What about Ravenwing / Deathwing combo? aside from Deathwing Knights Terminators are looking expensive 1st glance as you need to buy the powerfist & its -1 to hit on them + heavy weapons are -1 to hit if you move only way round this is Belial with re-rolls

 

Greenwing / Ravenwing combo - what you get is a solid set of units at the back supporting the floating bikers.

 

Big winners Dark Angels is plasma is the new hotness (ouch did I really say that)

[dtse]

i think plasma is overrated. i was very very unimpressed with plasma talons. took almost 15 black knights to take a rhino to 2 wounds.  Single damage hurts it and I'm too scared to overcharge.

 

Yea, someone in this thread has got jink and cover all wrong, if it worked that way, it would be awesome.  I agree, i think ravenwing works best with deathwing or greenwing, but the point is to try and make pure 2nd company work!

 

I think speeders are the only choice for that, expensive as they are.  in my latest army (see lists forum) I too a unit of 3 with heavy bolters and typhoon missiles for that long range punch.  I cut my black knights down in half, i don't think they're good enough and too expensive to spam now, but you still need a small force. Yea, i replaced my banner with apothecary, cheaper and adds to longevity, something which these guys lack.

[SnakeChisler]

If you want to kill stuff with lots of wounds your going to have to overcharge and twin link in Nu Hammer you can't afford to ponce around if its T7 or your shooting at 2 wound models then bite the bullet and give it your all now wounds on 3's 2 damage.

 

Gives the Apothecary something to do ;)

 

Its a calculation but I think its going to be worth it in reducing firepower against you.

 

Typhoon speeders are marvellous just too expensive they are marginally worth it if Sam hangs around with them but then he's not up in people's grills adding to the forward bike squads.

 

I've a load of melta guns on Magnets done when I ran this in 6th and intend to try it out without the Attack bike, 1 melta Gun per 3 see how that works out given its an assault weapon so no penalty for moving and shooting & + the bike movement of 14 and if your extra keen +6 and you can still shoot it albeit on 4+ with possible re-roll.

 

So 145 for speeder 2 missiles 3 HB hitting normally on 4's or 4 bikes 1 melta gun 16 - 32 bolter shots hitting on 3's

 

As an aside a lot of stuff has D6 if squad is 5 or greater otherwise D3 so 4 bikes is probably the max you'd want to run and funnily enough just a melta bomb short of a black Knight squad.

 

I'll stick stuff up as we play and new things crop up and get some 1st hand experience of overcharged plasma.

[dtse]

go for it, would love to hear numbers on overcharged plasma.  What can i say, i don't like killing myself.

 

I'm NOT convinced ravenwing can work by itself, but would love it if it could. I have switched my list around for the next game.

 

Have also made a list ravenwing with deathwing.  Deathwing seem very good

[Chaplain Lucifer]

It's really not the end of pure Ravenwing.

It will take more than 5 games to het the hang of it, but I'm sure a formula will be found to make it work albeit nit as good as last Ed. but I believe last Ed. was the exception...

RW bikes used to be 50 points a pop and with fancy rules and the army was playable so I think this go around we can still be in a good spot.

[Kewl Imp]

I played a Black Knight heavy list this weekend. It didn't go over well. Both times, once they got caught up in combat they were worn down over one or two turns of close combat. Infantry or otherwise.

 

I will say double Dark Talon might be a thing. I played against a harlequin list and devastated a lot of his close combat with the stasis bombs. 12 wounds over two units. Followed by the hurricane bolters, killed off one whole unit of the dancing elves. Same thing with the nids I fought in my second game. Opening salvo tore up his lines but failed to follow up once in melee.

 

Dark Shroud continued its good work and in first game was the first targeted unit. He wanted to make shooting me easier.

 

Overall, I think we will need standard bikers for blocking until a counter attack is done. When it releases, I'm thinking of letting the regular bikers get charged and falling back. After the fall back, light them up with the black knights. Either that or just shoot them down by keeping the distance.

[gainsay]

I shelved my bikers and playing a squad of 3 speeders instead. 

[dtse]

yea my latest list has 3 speeders with double heavy flamers....apparently thats good haha...man its costly though.

[ValourousHeart]

 

Were back into your opponent putting objectives on 2nd floors of buildings again so you can never score them

 

I don't believe this will be a big issue as long as we all stay cognizant about terrain and objective placement.  There are a number of proactive ways to avoid this.   If your opponent does this, they ARE gaming for advantage, I wouldn't call it cheating, but it could be consider unsportsmanlike.  You using a counter strategy to prevent that behavior and keep the playing field even for both players should never be considered cheating... Well it might be considered cheating by the person that is angry that you stopped them from gaining an advantage over you, hence the reason I said their behavior could be considered unsportsmanlike.

 

Every game system that uses objectives, puts some level of restriction on placing objectives close to one another.  Use that minimum distance to create denial areas for objectives that your opponent places.  If you have the option to place the first objective, place it on the first floor just outside of the tallest piece of terrain.  This does 2 things, first it denies your opponent from placing the objective in the upper reaches of that building and second it forces your opponent to leave terrain to claim the objective during the game.  But that applies equally to both of you.

 

Alternatively, you could have a polite conversation with your opponent.  Put it in terms of lets test our tactics and strategies against one another, as opposed to making this about who can apply the most game mechanics in their favor.  And from a fluff perspective, the objectives would more than likely already be in place before both armies arrive.  So in my opinion placing objectives to gain an advantage over an opponent once you have seen their list is very similar to making changes to your list once you have seen your opponent's list.  So if they want to place objectives so that they advantage them over you, then they should be fine with you making adjustments to your list to re-balance the scale.

 

If you are in the tournament scene and the games come with pre-placed objectives, set up by the organizers, then have the conversation with the TOs prior to the event.  Convince them that the tournament should test the players tactics and strategies, and it should not penalize players for not conforming to the TOs ideas of what the "correct" list looks like.  But perhaps you don't call out the TO's bias in such a direct and offensive way.

[ValourousHeart]

I'm looking forward to seeing how my Air Force list performs.

 

I was able to get 15 speeders and 3 dark shrouds in a 1500 point list in 7th.

I never got a chance to try the list with my 3 flyers... probably about 2000 points.

 

Also previously my lists tended to be lots of 1 model units, attack bike and speeders.

It gave the advantage of excessive damage against me was lost, and limited the amount of units my opponent could target in a turn.

 

With the new targeting rules, I'm not sure what is best.

Even if people can multi-target, will they, and how effective will it be?

[dtse]

Yes they will and very effective. Your speeders are now anywhere from 100-180 points each now depending on loadout. Dark talons are almost 200 points. So yea you will be able to run flying list by you won't likely win any missions without troops

[ValourousHeart]

Yes they will and very effective. Your speeders are now anywhere from 100-180 points each now depending on loadout. Dark talons are almost 200 points. So yea you will be able to run flying list by you won't likely win any missions without troops

 

Why is that, do you think?  And by troops do you mean bikes and black knights or do you mean tactical and scout squads?

[Elios Harg]

Well, in The Relic, pure Ravenwing can only ever win a minor victory and only by keeping all enemy models away from the Relic at the end of the game. Only infantry can carry the Relic.

 

I think as far as being able to throw down with anything, Ravenwing need to utilize all of its units well. A balance of BKs, Bike Squads, Dark Talons, Nephilim, Land Speeder Squadrons, Dark Shrouds and Vengeances will be superior to spamming a bunch of any given type. Cover your bases. Have some units with melta for anti-vehicle/monsters.  A Nephilim with Twin Lascannons is pretty good against non-flying vehicles as well due to strafing run (2 shots with D6 damage and 2 shots with 2 damage). MM/TML land speeders are pricey, but also good against multi-wound stuff having 3 D6 damage shots. The Vengeance can be ok with having D6 * 2 damage shots (or 3 damage if you are willing to super charge). Of course, Sammael is a decent vehicle wrecker as well since he can do up to 10 wounds on the charge (12 if the banner is nearby) plus shooting potential. I am excited about the possibility of Sammael cutting a flyer out of the sky! Let the mental images of Sammael cutting a Stormraven in half with his sword ensue!

[dtse]

Yea. After playing spam black knight I can tell you that does not work. Speeders are expensive but they're one of few ways we have of delivering effective multi wound damage. A mix of all we have available I think is best

[SnakeChisler]

If you take just fast attack & elites your missing out on command points.

 

Also we've lost scout so DS is likely to be in our face and some units can move / assault 1St turn such as Helldrakes so scout units to infiltrate and block look a useful addition and fit well with a biker force.

 

And you really do need those command points

[dtse]

yea i think troops is important in this game, so spamming elites/fast attack/heavy support is not gonna win that many games

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The more I look at stuff, the more I like Typhoon speeders. They use range and stay in the back (like always) pumping krak and frag and being a general nuisance. I really like the idea of Hb/AC because of 9 shots but penalty is a bit penalizing.. Lol

[Kewl Imp]

I've run pure Ravenwing and have won. We're just not Close Combat friendly due to lack of models on the board. After a few weeks of solid playing, I might have a army list that works in most games but its going to take that time. I would be further working on it if I had books that I could study. I know a few people who own gaming stores where I live who are already using their copies to do the same.

 

I think for Ravenwing to work without mixing in other units, you'll need a mix like everyone is saying. Couple of speeders, fliers, BKs, bike squads. But I think I will need to play more games. I'm looking forward to sharing as well.

[Elios Harg]

yea i think troops is important in this game, so spamming elites/fast attack/heavy support is not gonna win that many games

I don't know that "troops" are that important. For example, assault marines, devastators, terminators, and veterans can all accomplish things like pick up the relic and secure objectives up in buildings. I think the issue is that an all bike and vehicle army will suffer limitations in these regards. In fact, an army entirely composed of devastator squads might be pretty powerful (Go 9th company!). If you flesh it out with full dev squads (instead of 5-man squads packed with heavy weapons) then you can use your bolter combat squads like tactical marines and your heavy weapon combat squads like devastators. You could fit 7-8 devastator squads with a healthy mix of lascannons, missiles, gravcannons, and heavy bolters into a 2000 point list along with an HQ or 2. You would, of course, be at a disadvantage in big guns games since you are presenting a kill point rich environment. Thus, I don't think that lack of "troops" is the issue for Ravenwing, so much as lack of infantry.

 

It is important to note that Land Speeders (of all types) and Sammael mitigate some of the infantry issues. Anything that can fly is allowed to land on upper floors of ruins, thus our speeders can be used to claim such objectives. Therefore, if you include a decent amount of speeders, then you only really have to worry about the Relic.