Help! New to Deathwatch

[melbards]

Hi,

 

Have been away from 40k since 2nd/3rd edition and decided to make a comeback for 8th edition. The recent positive changes and more openess of GW in the past 6 months or so really provided the spark to get back to the hobby.

 

With that being said, I have decided on Deathwatch as my 1st army and looking for any advice from more experienced gamers..

This is what I have got so far...

 

HQ

 

 

CAPTAIN ARTEMIS

130

 

 

TROOPS

 

 

KILL TEAM HEAVY (7 man)

5 Veterans

- 1 Missile Launcher, 3 Stalker Bolters, Heavy Bolter

2 Terminators, 1 Cyclone ML, Assault Cannon, 2 Power swords

265

 

KILL TEAM ALPHA (10 man)

7 Veterans (upgrade 1 sarge + 1 Black watch)

Frag Cannon

1 Vanguard Veteran

2 Terminators, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Heavy Flamer , 2 Power Swords

308

 

KILL TEAM BRAVO (10 man)

7 Veterans (upgrade 1 sarge + 1 Black watch)

Frag Cannon

1 Vanguard Veteran

2 Terminators, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield , Heavy Flamer , 2 Power Swords

308

 

 

 

ELITES

 

 

VANGUARD VETERANS

8 Vanguard Vets

2 ThunderHammers, 2 Plasma pistols

222

 

DREADNOUGHT

Dreadnought

Heavy Plasma Cannon

Missile Launcher

118

 

DREADNOUGHT

Dreadnought

Twin Lascannon

Missile Launcher

147

 

FAST ATTACK

 

DEATHWATCH BIKERS

3 Bikers

teleport homer

102

 

-------

1600

 

A few points on this list:

-At 1st was going to get a unit of terminators, but after some thought I believe they would be better served inserted inside kill teams to provide wound allocation shanenigans and teleport abilty. Having a terminator with a storm shield taking shots for the team at 2W 2+/3++ will soak up alot of damage and keep the other less protected veterans alive.

 

-Deep striking Vanguard vets and the bikers will provide the mobile element. Vanguard vets in 2 of the 3 kill teams will provide the ability to fall back from combat.

 

-I feel like I have enought firepower to take on most different army builds..The tactical flexibilty of SIA is great and will help the basic veterans be able to effectively shoot at a wide range of different enemy unit types (ie. Monsters, terminators and even light vehicles)

 

-I feel my weaknesses will be low model count and low mobility for objectives. a few teleport homers would help here for quick re-deployment in my own zone...

 

Let me know your thoughts..I'm currently sitting at 1600 points and not sure where to go from here..

-Possibly a Librarian or watch master?

-adding a Biker to the vanguard vet units for charge spam and an additional teleport hommer?

-A Rhino?

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

The Watch Master can help ensure you re-roll any missed hits, so no harm getting that to improve your odds. I myself go for a Librarian + Watch Captain for the time being until I can get a proper Watch Master. 

 

As for transports, judging by your composition, at least one Land Raider Crusader or Corvus Blackstar can help keep at least one of your Kill Teams alive. Aside from this, I think you'll only have some level of difficulty against horde armies. I like what you have so far. All that remains is to test it out and see if your plan pays off. :)

[melbards]

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

 

Yeah, the watchmaster is definately good to have. Althought, Artemis allows re-rolls of 1's and so all is not lost. Ideally I would want Artemis, a Watch Master and a Librarian but I feel as thought I wil only be able to fit two of them in.

 

In regards to transports, not a big fan of flyers and so the corvus, while fluffy, is not an option. A razorback with heavy bolters would be ideal, however, it only carries 6 and even the rhino carries 10 and both kill teams that would need to be mobile are over ten in terms of weight due to terminators and the VV.. I may just skip the transports altogether and add a second biker unit to add mobility and a second teleport homer.

 

Horde armies could pose a problem...and is one of the reasons I have 1 cyclone missile launcher, 3 missile launchers (frag or krak option provides flexibility) Not to mention the frag cannons (assault 2d6) and two heavy flamer terminators in both large kill teams. Also the fact that I will likley be moving each turn makes the heavy flamer ideal as I don't suffer any negative hit mods.

 

I think 8th edition army builds will largely be a case of rock, paper, scissor. With the return of hordes and vehicles..You simply need to make a true "take on all comers" list that can deal with hordes, vehicles, monsters and elites. That is one of the main reasons I chose deathwatch in that it has perhaps the most flexible units in the game and the Special issue ammunition always gives you the perfect shell for each situation.

[SnakeChisler]

Few games in and transport / mobility is just as important as it was in 7th

 

Points per return the big downer with terminators is the cost and as an elite force they simply don't punch thier weight, I see you've put ML's on the Dreads funnily enough this reduces thier cost considerably.

 

As I see it currently to use kill teams properly you need a corvus as it's our only KT transport other option is to drop the specialists and use razorbacks.

[melbards]

Yes, Good point about the mobility issue, thanks for pointing it out as it is likely the biggest issue that this list will face. I feel as thought I have most situations pretty well covered except mobility, as you pointed out. I will have to give it some serious thought as i don't want any flyers and rhinos aren't big enought for my transport needs. Maybe if I add another unit of bikes and make two units of 5 Vanguard vets this would help compensate so that at least half my army is mobile...

 

In regards to the missile launchers on the Dreadnoughts, yes, it was a cost saving measure for sure and it also provides flexibility of frag or krak as well.

 

I haven't played a game yet, but I feel as thought giving kill teams extra protection from embedded termies is a very worthwhile investment. I tried to keep them as cheap as possible (no powerfists) If I can allocate wounds to them first and get a 2+/3++ with a storm shield this will no doubt protect my kill teams from small to medium arms fire and possibly some heavy fire as well. Gotta keep those frag cannons hot. It also lets me ignore morale and the ability to teleport back to my deployment. Additionally, Giving the unit the fly key word by including a VV also protects them from close combat and having a heavy flamer does so as well to a certain extent all the while not sufferring any negative mods for moving and shooting (as I will likely be moving my kill teams at least 6" every turn)

 

The HEAVY kill team of missile launchers, stalker boltguns and heavy bolters is there for fire support, base defence and will likely not be moving, except maybe teleporting out of sticky situations.

 

I am starting feel as thought the mixed units are kind of a blessing and a curse. They give us the option to add very useful keywords to units but at the same time tend to inflate the bulk weight and cost of said units...

[SnakeChisler]

Test Games so far Razorbacks did well, I've tried rockets and Las and while they can be very effective you need quite a few and getting a re-roll from a character is pretty essential with heavy weapons being -1 to hit even on vehicles.

 

This kind of makes the Watchmaster an auto include and thankfully they've priced him accordingly

 

Basic SIA is pretty effective across the board now we have the free Sgt & Black Shield (who have 3 attacks instead of 2) and power weapons getting cheaper its not only cool modelling wise but a xenophase blade or a power sword looks so cool so your basic vet squad is pretty decent at dealing with most stuff.

 

So far morale hasn't been an issue and we've been playing it as 8 when in fact the watch Sgt gives you 9 so in a vet squad of 6 your loosing 4 before you can possibly fail on a 6 with a re-roll.

 

I have noticed with the new costings that SM scouts offer a load of options (snipers camo infiltrate + Rockets + HB) there 11 points base +2 for a sniper rifle. The main thing being you can deny space for DS units with the 9" bubble or use them to screen against flyers that can move and assault 1st turns (Helldrakes & Nids).

 

Its not if you put in other imperial units its how much & what for couple of hundred points in 4 scout squads adds 20 bodies & 250 gives em some wargear.

 

I'm coming from this as my main chapter is Dark Angels though I have enough Deathwatch to field them stand alone and like to mix it up as I tend to play the same people a lot so rotating round is a huge thing.

 

Command points are a big big thing last game my opponent got really burned by not having command point options  

[leth]

Hey, I dont know if you saw it but I have been working on a DW tactica here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334428-8th-edition-dw-tactica/ If you want to check it out.  I am updating it as I go along. 

[MeltaRange]

[...]

 

A few points on this list:

-At 1st was going to get a unit of terminators, but after some thought I believe they would be better served inserted inside kill teams to provide wound allocation shanenigans and teleport abilty. Having a terminator with a storm shield taking shots for the team at 2W 2+/3++ will soak up alot of damage and keep the other less protected veterans alive.

 

-Deep striking Vanguard vets and the bikers will provide the mobile element. Vanguard vets in 2 of the 3 kill teams will provide the ability to fall back from combat.

 

-I feel like I have enought firepower to take on most different army builds..The tactical flexibilty of SIA is great and will help the basic veterans be able to effectively shoot at a wide range of different enemy unit types (ie. Monsters, terminators and even light vehicles)

 

-I feel my weaknesses will be low model count and low mobility for objectives. a few teleport homers would help here for quick re-deployment in my own zone...

 

Let me know your thoughts..I'm currently sitting at 1600 points and not sure where to go from here..

-Possibly a Librarian or watch master?

-adding a Biker to the vanguard vet units for charge spam and an additional teleport hommer?

-A Rhino?

 

First, you will need another HQ in order to fill out the Battalion detachment, so go there first.  That's +3 command points.  The Watch Master is quite good, I'd look at adding him.

 

I like the feel of the list a lot.  Couple of random suggestions:

 

One thing I might add is Thunder Hammers to the Black Shields.  For 20 points I think it's definitely worth it on a 3A model since you can just remove regular bolter dudes and always let him strike.  I'd also consider a couple Power Swords in there...for 4 points it's really pretty good.  Especially with the Captain/Watch Master around to re-roll hits.

 

Don't overestimate teleport homers.  They aren't the answer to poor mobility.  You only have one homer to place anyway, and 3 units with the potential to move to it.

 

I think you're a bit too long ranged firepower centric.  I've only played 1 game in 8th, but I've observed a few in person and several reports on YouTube.  Sitting back and shooting isn't going to win you many games.  You need to get to objectives and you need to be able to maneuver.  Personally, I'd re-purpose Kill Team Heavy to one that has a bunch of combi weapons in a Corvus, and give one Dreadnaught a Dreadnaught CCW instead of the Missile Launcher.

[melbards]

Hey, I dont know if you saw it but I have been working on a DW tactica here http://www.bolterand...ion-dw-tactica/ If you want to check it out.  I am updating it as I go along.

 

 

 

 Thanks. Yeah I did take a look at it. Lots of good insight. I will be keeping an eye on that thread.

 

First, you will need another HQ in order to fill out the Battalion detachment, so go there first.  That's +3 command points.  The Watch Master is quite good, I'd look at adding him.

 

I like the feel of the list a lot.  Couple of random suggestions:

 

One thing I might add is Thunder Hammers to the Black Shields.  For 20 points I think it's definitely worth it on a 3A model since you can just remove regular bolter dudes and always let him strike.  I'd also consider a couple Power Swords in there...for 4 points it's really pretty good.  Especially with the Captain/Watch Master around to re-roll hits.

 

Don't overestimate teleport homers.  They aren't the answer to poor mobility.  You only have one homer to place anyway, and 3 units with the potential to move to it.

 

I think you're a bit too long ranged firepower centric.  I've only played 1 game in 8th, but I've observed a few in person and several reports on YouTube.  Sitting back and shooting isn't going to win you many games.  You need to get to objectives and you need to be able to maneuver.  Personally, I'd re-purpose Kill Team Heavy to one that has a bunch of combi weapons in a Corvus, and give one Dreadnaught a Dreadnaught CCW instead of the Missile Launcher.

 

 

Hey, thanks for taking the time to critique the list as you raise some really good points/concerns.

 

1. Watch Master will be the next addition.

 

2. Thunder hammers would be good on a blackshield, no doubt especially with heroic intervention. But honestly I think I would rather just a cheaper power sword at the moment...because  my plan is to have the  Vanguard Veteran sergant have one (he is also 3 xAttacks) as this unit will be more combat orientated. I can't see investing another 20 points into a thunderhammer for a unit that will generally try to avoid combat and will have a heavy flamer and frag cannon for overwatch if anyone even tries to touch them . A power sword or two might be enought IMHO.

 

3. Very good point. I'm trying to squeeze in another unit of bikers as a harassment/ objective snatcher unit. This would add extra mobility and a 2nd telport homer. While Teleport homers won't replace dedicated transports, it is indeed a good trick to have.

 

4. You might be right about the heavy dakka. The reason im so heavy in this department because range kinda makes up for poor mobility in a way. Also with the return of transport spam and vehicles making a huge comeback...I would almost feel naked without the extra firepower. As mentioned before, Alot of missile launchers and frag cannons which can equally deal with hordes as well.

 

5. Thats a really good idea about the combi-kill team. I will have to ponder this one. Maybe like a 5-7man kill team with a bunch of combi-plasma and maybe a combi-flamer in a rhino that would act like a fire brigade of sorts, going to hot spots on the battlefield putting out fires, so to speak.

 

In order to deal with the mobility issue..I'm thinking of cutting a few grunts from the kill teams and adding more fast units. An extra 3 man biker unit, Two 5-man Vanguard vet squads instead of one large one. This might somewhat help. Here is my current list:

 

HQ

----------------

WATCH MASTER

130

 

CAPTAIN ARTEMIS

130

 

TROOPS

--------------------

KILL TEAM (HEAVY)

5 Veterans, 3 Stalker boltguns , Heavy Bolter ), Missile Launcher

2 Terminators , Cyclone Missile launcher + Storm bolter , Assault Cannon , 2 power mauls ,

287

 

KILL TEAM (ALPHA)

5 Veterans , Frag cannon ,

2 Terminators , Heavy flamer , power sword .

Thunder hammer and Storm shield

1 Vanguard veteran

266

 

KILL TEAM (BRAVO)

5 Veterans , Frag cannon ,

2 Terminators , Heavy flamer , power sword.

Thunder hammer and Storm shield

1 Vanguard veteran

266

 

 

ELITE

-----------------

VANGUARD VETS

5 Vanguard Veterans , Thunder hammer , 2 plasma pistols

139

 

VANGUARD VETS

5 Vanguard Veterans, Thunder hammer , 2 plasma pistols

139

 

DREADNOUGHT

Dreadnought , Twin Lascannon , Missile Launcher

145

 

DREADNOUGHT

Dreadnought , Plasma Cannon , Missile launcher

116

 

 

FAST ATTACK

-------------------------

 

3 BIKERS

3 Deathwatch Bikers

102

 

3 BIKERS

3 Deathwatch Bikers

102

 

 

-1822