Kill Team Construction in 8th - Large Units or MSU?

[MeltaRange]

I've only played one game of 8th so far (50 power level) but for those who've played more, how have you been constructing your Kill Teams?

 

Whenever I sit down to create a 100 power level or 2000 point list, I keep coming up with lists that have only 4 Kill Teams (combined with a few characters/small Bike teams/vehicles) that have insane firepower, but mediocre/weak survivability. (a Deathwatch staple!)  Most lists are only around 40 models.  

 

Each Kill Team has a plan - long range shooting, mid range hybrid, dedicated assault unit, etc. - and I think each will be very effective in those roles.  But I can't help but look at the lists and think right away that I'm not going to be competitive against armies that are bringing say 10+ units in a similar sized list, allowing them to maneuver around much better than I, even with Teleport Homers and Corvus transports.

 

Couple example Teams I've come up with below.  Obviously it's a little out of context when you don't have the full army but just to illustrate:

 

• 2 Combi Melta + 5 Combi Plasma (all with Power Swords) + Frag Cannon + Black Shield w/ TH + Watch Master (in Drop Pod)
• 4 Stalker Boltguns + IHB + Missile Launcher + Termie w/CML + cheap Vanguard Vet (on foot)
• 4 Frag Cannons + 2 Shotguns + Termie w/TH+SS, + Vanguard Vet w/ dual Grav Pistols (in Corvus)

 

I wonder if I would be better off with an MSU approach, with 5-7 man Kill Teams mostly made of Veterans, and touting more units and more vehicles.  Originally, upon seeing the rules for 8th my first thought was that this would be the way to go:

 

• 2 Combi Melta + 2 Bolters + Frag Cannon (in Razorback)
• 4 Shotguns + Frag Cannon (in Razorback)
• 4 Bolters + Frag Cannon  +  Bike + Vanguard Vet (on foot)
• 4 Bolters w/ Power Swords + Black Shield w/ TH (in Drop Pod)
• 3 Shotguns + 2 HTH + Bike (in Corvus)
  • side note: I think Black Shield units in Drop Pods will be fantastic.

 

Just curious how your list building has been going.

 

Do you find yourself leaning towards Large Units since split fire has changed the game, or towards a more MSU approach for better flexibility and target saturation?

[Irbis]

I'd go MSU. Go as cheap as possible, as little toys as possible. 2x AC razorbacks are king in DW list now IMO so take one per kill team, except for backfielders.

 

Drop pods in DW are kind of useless, IMHO. Kill team with combi plasmas and drop pod costs as much as two vanguard veteran squads with 10x bolt pistol/10x special pistol - giving you twice the bodies, guns, wounds and attacks. Then, there is the fact MSU can be in multiple places on board, allow a lot more deployment/deny/assault tricks, and more.

 

I might be wrong, but I just don't see value of gear, at least for now, when it lacks any impact on the board. Ditto for kill teams, seeing bonus loss. Termies are kind of bad now with their price hike, unless you go for maximum firepower build. Hmm. Honestly, DW needs analysis how effective every gun is, but my hunch is, bolt/plasma weapons, frag and assault cannons outperform everything else to a silly degree...

[hmk17]

I'm planning MSU, but...

 

Part of me wants to make 2 10x Stalker Boltgun squads to just sit backfield and drop Poisoned or AP-2 shots into anything not driving across the field. 



Also a thought just hitting me, I don't recall seeing anything about being able to shoot out of Rhinos or other vehicles... Going to have to go back and check that. 

[Kargrym]

Rhinos are sealed coffins now. No hatches. This is why everyone is saying that Razorbacks are the new hotness, at 82 to 123 points (thats with all options added) they can do solid damage on their own AND get you there.

[SnakeChisler]

Razorbacks are really good for the points adding either anti tank or dakka and not forgetting the storm bolter gives you a few more shots.

 

As for loadout on kill teams been trying to get a terminator to work but they eat points like there going out of fashion, combi Melta is a useful thing and a frag cannon.

 

Having two guys with 3 attacks is kind of cool and just begs you to put a power sword on then just to have the models.

 

Had a game at the weekend with Deathwatch only and they were brilliant at clearing anything under T5 OK at T6 and total failures at T7 were certainly going to give Nids / Orks a bloody nose.

 

Anyway Melta guns and bombs would have really helped

[Irbis]

I'm planning MSU, but...

 

Part of me wants to make 2 10x Stalker Boltgun squads to just sit backfield and drop Poisoned or AP-2 shots into anything not driving across the field.

 

Why not 2x 5? That way you get 4 free characters, not just two. Maybe stick one Cyclone TDA in there too for a bit of long range support. Hmm.

 

Having two guys with 3 attacks is kind of cool and just begs you to put a power sword on then just to have the models.

 

...

 

Anyway Melta guns and bombs would have really helped

 

Good point about characters. I think 5x veteran with 1x power sword and 1x frag (or 6x with 2x frag if you don't need space for IC) in razorback is the way to go now. Relatively cheap, hard hitting, and you still have 2-3 guys to catch bullets without affecting squad effectiveness much. Maybe replace sarge's sword with necron blade too. Hmm.

 

As for melta bombs, aren't they terrible now? One guy can throw it, useless in melee, very short range....

[SnakeChisler]

 

 

As for melta bombs, aren't they terrible now? One guy can throw it, useless in melee, very short range....

 

I dunno how bombs / grenades work now only thing I do know is there 5 points and S8 -4 damage D6  

 

If you can throw it even better

 

Range - there are no doors anymore disembark is 3" around the vehicle at start of movement phase then 6" movement so getting close isn't I think going to be an issue I don't think.

 

Initial tests show anything that does D6 damage can be horrific for MC's / Vehicles those 10 / 14 wounds just evaporate really quick especially as you can save a Command point until after your opponent has made his saving throw so your not re-rolling to hit or wound just re-rolling that Damage 1 that came up.

By the way re-rolling a Damage 2 using a command point can give you the nightmares as my mate found out when he rolled a 2 down to a 1 with his only remaining command point ;) 

[Prot]

Large are small teams (I think) is a decision that is largely going to be dictated by the toys in the list, and the supporting cast.

 

I really like the corvus for example. So I have one large squad for that, but everything else is very vanilla.

 

So far we are playing power level 75 point games which I guesstimate to be about 1200-1400 points. It's forcing me to try highend load outs, but small model counts. I just really strongly believe in trying everything before calling it gold, or garbage.

 

From what I'm seeing with ridiculous Tau in my area, poison is going to be huge, and so is speed. Yet we have Ork players that have incredible model counts so Frag Cannons are going to be really big.

 

On top of it I'm still really liking dreads with Las/missiles. So the size of my squads (aside from the Corvus squad) is starting to look small.

[TheSauce]

I've always had more luck with deathwatch MSU than larger units. Here are some benefits:

 

1. Limits effects of morale

2. More mobile (literally being in two places at once)

3. The ability to tie up "half" your unit in melee and still shoot with the other "half"

4. You're more likely to force your opponent to overkill one of your smaller squads

 

For #1 - A 5 man vet squad with a sergeant needs to lose 4 marines to be at any risk of morale (ld 9 - 4 + d6), and then only 1/36 of the time that sergeant will run off. A 10 man squad can get wiped out if you lose 7 in a single turn, and can more easily lose one or two extra marines from morale.

 

For #4 - In the case where you have 2 frag cannon marines left, I would rather have them each as single-man squads than have them together. Makes it more likely your opponent will over-allocate shots to ensure the kill, or under-allocate and give you a chance at living one more turn. If it's a two-man squad than it's more worthwhile to allocate more damage to kill both marines.

[SnakeChisler]

Large are small teams (I think) is a decision that is largely going to be dictated by the toys in the list, and the supporting cast.

 

I really like the corvus for example. So I have one large squad for that, but everything else is very vanilla.

 

So far we are playing power level 75 point games which I guesstimate to be about 1200-1400 points. It's forcing me to try highend load outs, but small model counts. I just really strongly believe in trying everything before calling it gold, or garbage.

 

From what I'm seeing with ridiculous Tau in my area, poison is going to be huge, and so is speed. Yet we have Ork players that have incredible model counts so Frag Cannons are going to be really big.

 

On top of it I'm still really liking dreads with Las/missiles. So the size of my squads (aside from the Corvus squad) is starting to look small.

You need to agree on a power cap or a points cap on single models or units

 

Power 75 is different things to different races there are a load of things Tau can take that aren't included in the power ratings and it wouldn't surprise me if their list wasn't well over 2K and then there's the under costing on certain units (Super heavies across the board)

 

 

<RANT>

Power Level is the usual GW fluffy Bull points in 7th used to be

 

Ex StormSurge power level 22, Deathwatch terminators power level 17 ooooo add a razorback and that's 22 so a stormsurge is equivalent to 5 terminators and a razorback please GW you are seriously pulling my chain here

 

</RANT>

Edited June 13, 2017 by SnakeChisler

[Prot]

I understand that Snake... the problem is we are playing 8th ed games and not everyone has all the info so this is just temporary. Thanks for the warning though. For now we're just testing everything we can.

[MeltaRange]

I've always had more luck with deathwatch MSU than larger units. Here are some benefits:

 

1. Limits effects of morale

2. More mobile (literally being in two places at once)

3. The ability to tie up "half" your unit in melee and still shoot with the other "half"

4. You're more likely to force your opponent to overkill one of your smaller squads

 

For #1 - A 5 man vet squad with a sergeant needs to lose 4 marines to be at any risk of morale (ld 9 - 4 + d6), and then only 1/36 of the time that sergeant will run off. A 10 man squad can get wiped out if you lose 7 in a single turn, and can more easily lose one or two extra marines from morale.

 

For #4 - In the case where you have 2 frag cannon marines left, I would rather have them each as single-man squads than have them together. Makes it more likely your opponent will over-allocate shots to ensure the kill, or under-allocate and give you a chance at living one more turn. If it's a two-man squad than it's more worthwhile to allocate more damage to kill both marines.

 

Well said.  Overall I agree completely.  I think that if you had 2 Frag Cannons though that it would be pretty easy for the opponent to kill both with one unit anyway - the difference is most of the time negligible but yes, it's a slight edge.

 

Smaller units are also easier to hide out of LOS and get into Cover, it should be noted.

[MeltaRange]

Large are small teams (I think) is a decision that is largely going to be dictated by the toys in the list, and the supporting cast.

 

I really like the corvus for example. So I have one large squad for that, but everything else is very vanilla.

 

This is the basis for my planned army as well.  Corvus to deliver a large assault squad that includes Terminators so they can port back to the homer if needed.  Supported by vanilla Bikes, Kill Teams, and Vanguard Vets.

 

Let me know how your playtesting goes!

[SnakeChisler]

OK so tried proper kill teams and I'm pretty darn disappointed

 

There's a number of recurring themes when trying to put a proper KT together, the main ones are

1. They are just too expensive

2. Limited transport options (Corvus or nothing)

3. Heavy weapon nerf

Msu

1. Razors are cheap in NuHammer even with twin Las & Assault Cannon

2. Movement - Disembark 3" move 6"

3. Corvus is also looking pretty good value

 

So if you were going MSU is it mix & Match or all Razor or all Corvus

 

All Corvus

Tried a couple of games running 2 and they are well up for 8th while the fluffy 7 man KT may as well have been 5 vets for all the VV & Terminator added to the party.

I was surprised you can get 6 squads + 3 Blackstars and a couple of characters for 2000, its not an all comers list but kitted with Assault cannons its a real horde cleanser and it just oozes Deathwatch.

It has some real advantages for matched play in that its virtually guaranteed to go 1st deploying just 3 units and also meets the criteria for command points + Halo Launchers to up their survivability.

 

All Razors

I think were going to see a lot of Marine Razor Lists in 8th

 

Mixed

Some well crafted points efficiency may make this a real staple, the 2 test games I've played with 2 * Corvus has left me with not much at the back and the Watchmasters re-rolls add that killer punch though. Unfortunately dropping all the fluff bunny stuff out the KT's and running a Veterans army with maybe some bike support could work.

[MeltaRange]

@Snake, nice summary of experience there.  Thank you!

 

I am very skeptical about any Kill Team that's on foot, besides maybe Stalker units (which I don't think are going to end up being that useful overall, but that's just me) and pure Terminator squads.  So that means I'm skeptical overall of any larger Kill Team that includes non-Veterans.

 

One thing that I'm not sure a lot of people are thinking about is Land Raiders - who can actually carry Jump troops as well as Terminators now.  I'm interested in borrowing a Land Raider to try it out carrying a shooty Kill Team that includes a cheap VV or 2 to make sure it can't be tied down.  It's a lot of eggs in one basket, but it's an option.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

As far as transports go, I only have one Rhino/Razorback and one Land Raider with one Corvus on the way to be picked up. I thought I'd go for quality over quantity and focus on taking out the big baddies followed by smallfries. 

[Vel'Cona]

While I love the concept of x3 Corvus+KTs, I can't see that being long-term competitive with the early preference in 8th for large, durable units and volume of fire.  An opponent would only need to splash in 1-3 anti-air units (Hydra, Big Gunz, etc.) and he'd have it in the bag once he knocked down a Corvus or two.

[SnakeChisler]

While I love the concept of x3 Corvus+KTs, I can't see that being long-term competitive with the early preference in 8th for large, durable units and volume of fire.  An opponent would only need to splash in 1-3 anti-air units (Hydra, Big Gunz, etc.) and he'd have it in the bag once he knocked down a Corvus or two.

so scream up the middle and take out the hydra's 1st turn

 

your only deploying 3 units so are all but guaranteed to go 1st the thing is its designed to have a decent game against is more troop laden armies its not designed to go against vehicle / monster spam.

 

Its a rock paper scissors list last edition we weren't even allowed to play and its the 1st DW only list I feel will run as near fluff intended

[Moostick]

The actual issue I see with running 3 Corvus is more of a being "that guy" thing. While flyers aren't as powerful in 8th, I feel bringing 3 flyers to a 2k point match will be frowned upon eventually, if not immediately.

[Vel'Cona]

The actual issue I see with running 3 Corvus is more of a being "that guy" thing. While flyers aren't as powerful in 8th, I feel bringing 3 flyers to a 2k point match will be frowned upon eventually, if not immediately.

 

I think if you're running DW you're already bypassing "that guy" status.  The fair-weather Ork and Nids players, however . . .

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

Then let them say otherwise. Eldar had their fun with scatter bikes and Tau had fun with Riptides. I say let the Corvus Blackstars fly and purge xenos. :)