Rerolls? What is your opinion?

[Semirhagge]

Please move if topic doesn't belong in this forum. I just like the BA forum the best and I don't post often.

 

I've had a lot of debate recently about the new reroll rules. Incase you haven't heard about it yet the new reroll states that rerolls happen before modifiers. So

1. Roll to hit

2. Reroll misses(not counting + or - mods)

3. Apply mods

4. Removes misses based on mods.

 

This potentially allows you to get some new hits but just from some head math seems to have you always gaining misses when you may have hit with all.

 

Now my question is what is the people opinion on how to work this rule out in your local communities?

 

As a TO for my FLGS I'm planning on testing this RAW and how I intuitively thought it would happen( the way we all thought it happens). And based on how much feelsbadman it produces either way for all armies I can, then write it out or keep it in for my tournaments.

 

The back lash to this however is that a few people think I should leave it is because they think its important to the balance of things and they play at multiple shops and hate having to learn each shops individual metas and house rules. I was also told roundabout that they don't trust my judgement. But to me it sounded like "this would hurt my army so don't do it".

 

Just want some outside input. Thank you all. I really value the insight and inspiration this forum brings me.

 

Semirhagge

[Brother_Angelus]

It weakens the "re-roll all failed ____" abilities and adds another step that really didn't need to be there.

 

For example a Baal Pred moving (-1), and under the influence of something like 'The Horror' (-1). You roll your sack of dice for the asscannons and HBs, ending up with a bunch of 3's & 4's. Now these can't be re-rolled because they haven't  technically failed, but after modifiers they miss anyway.

 

I'm used to working out a target number and rolling to that in several other rule systems, so rolling/re-rolling a statistic check, then working out the result will feel pretty alien for a while.

[Xenith]

There is no opinion - the rule is written there in black and bone.

 

If you want to make a house rule that rerolls happen after modifiers, then ok, but that's what it will be, a house rule.

 

So:

 

BS3+ Primaris hellblasters overcharging near a rites of war captain, shooting something at -1 to hit.

 

roll 5 dice any 1's now get rerolled. 2's and 3's do nothing.

 

On the rerolled dice, these get the modifier applied, so any 2's on those rerolled dice get modified to 1's, and overheat. Any natural 1's on the reroll overheat

 

Now any rolls that show a 3, get -1 to become a 2, and so miss. any dice showing 4+ are hits.

 

Confusing? You bet!

[Quixus]

Is there any confirmation that natural and calculated dice results are treated the same? I that is the case, I will always combine an overcharged plasma cannon shot from a devastator with the signum from the sarge. No chance of getting hot.

[Xenith]

Is there any confirmation that natural and calculated dice results are treated the same? I that is the case, I will always combine an overcharged plasma cannon shot from a devastator with the signum from the sarge. No chance of getting hot.

 

It's the base rules. It's literally impossible to roll a 1 on the dice with a +1 to the roll modifier from the signum, making that overcharge shot safe. 

[Quixus]

Awesome thanks

[ChapelXIII]

This is too convoluted. I am treating rolls of one as rolls of one, and only applying modifiers to see whether I hit or not. All the specials rules on whether you reroll or get exploded should just be on the die roll itself.

[Charlo]

I feel as if GW mean for it to be much simpler...

 

Oh well, FAQ time!

[Calistarius]

They've always said that 1's always fail. 

[Xenith]

This is too convoluted. I am treating rolls of one as rolls of one, and only applying modifiers to see whether I hit or not. All the specials rules on whether you reroll or get exploded should just be on the die roll itself.

 

But, but...they are! Mostly.

 

You apply re-rolls before the modifiers, so the natural roll of 1 generates a re-roll for rites of battle, say. In terms of what gets to be rerolled, you only use the exact number shown in the dice. 

 

If you notice, special rules such as exploding occur on a roll of 6+, factoring in modifiers. 

 

If you based it only on the exact dice roll, then things that add +1 to hit rolls would mean things like tesla actually explode on a 5, not a 5 or a 6.

They've always said that 1's always fail. 

 

Yes, but a roll of a 1 with a +1 modifier is always 2. 

 

Also, I don't see a 'roll of a 1 always fails' rule anywhere in the book.

 

Rolls of 1 always fail when rolling to hit, wound, or for saving throws. 

[Charlo]

I think it does for saves, but that's it.

[Xenith]

Yup, you're right, applies to 'to hit, to wound, and armour save rolls'

 

So no such thing as an auto hit.

[Quixus]

Yes, but a roll of a 1 with a +1 modifier is always 2.

Exactly. Warhammer does not make a distinction between "natural" rolls and calculated rolls unlike for example D&D (at least up to 3.5 edition). It is interesting though that a moving plasma gun gets hot on a "natural" roll of 2 instead of one and a 1 does not but still misses.

 

Also, I don't see a 'roll of a 1 always fails' rule anywhere in the book.

It is right there in the last sentences of the Hit Roll and Wound Roll sectiona.

[Calistarius]

I'm sure this will be FAQ'd rather quickly.  The amount of discussion this has created is mind blowing.  If we are treating a 2 as a 1 with the -1 to hit modifier then you must treat a 1 as a 0, so 1's won't "get hot."  I'm not going to play this way, personally.  The modifiers should only affect weather or not the target is hit, and have no impact on the inherent consequences of the weapon.  It doesn't make any sense.  How would moving forward effect a weapon overheating.  I think common sense is required along with rolling dice.  Just my humble opinion, and I'm not going to argue this further as I don't see the point.

[Quixus]

The modifiers should only affect weather or not the target is hit, and have no impact on the inherent consequences of the weapon.

Tell that to 7th edition. Rerolls made getting hot more likely after the FAQ. That answer also went against a core concept that the roll before the reroll did not happen.

 

How would moving forward effect a weapon overheating.

It does not. Whether a 1 or a 2 causes the user to be slain, is still the same 1/6 chance.

[vahouth]

This is confusing as and bogs down gameplay. Like a lot.

IMHO rerolls should always happen only as a last resort.

[Jolemai]

A bit more perspective if anyone's interested:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334650-8th-edition-re-rolls/?do=findComment&comment=4781404

[Calistarius]

A bit more perspective if anyone's interested:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334650-8th-edition-re-rolls/?do=findComment&comment=4781404

Quite an interesting thread.  That's a lot of differing opinions on a fundamental part of the game.

[Arkhanist]

Very interesting tidbit on the ad mech faction focus:

 

 

"Next, we have a unit that wasn’t used much in the previous edition: the Electro Priests. Both the close combat and shooting versions are solid choices now with impressive damage output. The shooting version (Corpuscarii) gives you mass amounts of shots that explode on a 6+ to hit. And be aware that if you can get a +1 to hit, you get the bonus hits on the roll of a 5 or 6 – especially if you’re standing next to a Character that lets you re-roll hits."

 

 

 

So 'hit roll of...' definitely DOES include modifiers. Overheated plasma shots kill the bearer on a "hit roll of 1" - so following that logic, a +1 to hit means your plasma can never explode; a -1 to hit means it explodes on a die roll face of 2, but a die roll face of 1 = 0 so doesn't explode ( it doesn't say "hit roll of 1-" )

 

OK. So a captain aura is "you can re-roll hit rolls of 1". But re-rolls happen before modifiers - so 'hit roll of...' doesn't include modifers if it's a re-roll, but other types do? Gaaaaaaah.

[Morticon]

I think any pushback on this is because of pre-existing ideas from 7th. 

This, to me at least, clearly seems like a balance issue.  Its REALLY smart.  Helps prevent the reroll for special "6" problem too. 

Best way to say it simply is, you only reroll on natural misses.  

I say, onwards and upwards!

[tychobi]

Semantics.  They will clarify with FAQ to explain that rerolling 1's refers to "natural" 1's and otherwise the modification happens first.  For evidence i refer to their design strategy for the rest of the rules.  I believe we are over thinking this. 

[Quixus]

Semantics.  They will clarify with FAQ to explain that rerolling 1's refers to "natural" 1's and otherwise the modification happens first.  For evidence i refer to their design strategy for the rest of the rules.  I believe we are over thinking this. 

If they do this they will continue the bad tradition of changing rules in an inappropriate place. Ruels changes belong in errata not FAQ. 

 

This also means they continue to change core concepts nilly willy instead of revising the concepts themselves.

 

I really hoped that 8th would be better than previous editions, but it seems GW still can't properly write rules.

[Morticon]

 

Semantics.  They will clarify with FAQ to explain that rerolling 1's refers to "natural" 1's and otherwise the modification happens first.  For evidence i refer to their design strategy for the rest of the rules.  I believe we are over thinking this. 

If they do this they will continue the bad tradition of changing rules in an inappropriate place. Ruels changes belong in errata not FAQ. 

 

This also means they continue to change core concepts nilly willy instead of revising the concepts themselves.

 

 

 

A thousand times this. 

 

I do not believe, at all, that GW "cannot write rules".  Far, far too much misunderstanding arises out of poor player interpretation and poor comprehension skill.  

 

Give this rule to a new player, with no previous 40k experience, and ask them how it works.  It's not difficult, contentious or controversial. 

 

1: Roll dice.

2: Pick up the ones that usually miss.

3: Reroll those.

4: Apply the modifiers

 

This makes fliers half decent. It balances heavy weapons more. It reduces chances for rends or special activating tesla or electrostatic gauntlets! 

 

It's not a "dumb" rule- its an exceptionally clever rule.  Players are being reticent. 

[Xenith]

Agree on all counts.

 

Most of the trouble I've seen from people hating on or not understanding rules or how well a unit will work is because they're viewing it from a 7th edition lens, when 8th is a totally different game.

[vahouth]

Let me hear your thoughts on an example.

A Sanguinary Guard unit kills 4 marines from a 5man unit. In the moral phase they roll a 3 so they don't have to reroll for ATSKNF. But then the -1 leadership from the death masks kick in and that results in a failed test so the last man flees.

Thus ATSKNF is negated.

 

Does this sound right to you?