Rerolls? What is your opinion?

[Xenith]

Yep.

 

Again, the 7th ed assumption is that ATSKNF makes you pretty much immune to everything.

 

8th ed has said that morale will play a role.

 

Rerolls before modifiers also removes some strength from all the +1 save, rerolls on failed saves stuff.

 

ATSKNF is not negated, the marine player did not roll poorly enough for it to have an effect. If that marine had rolled a 6 for battleshock, then he would get the reroll for ATSKNF no problem.

 

In these marginal cases, modifiers are more powerful than rerolls, or so it seems. 

 

The case you describe fixes two of the major bugbears that was in 7th ed:

 

1: Morale means nothing, because everything has a way to ignore morale checks

2: Fear is useless, because everything has high Ld, or can ignore fear or morale.

 

By virtue of your example, you have instantly shown how GW has managed to address these issues and solve them elegantly. 

 

It's just unfamiliar to use, and that's why it seems strange for now. 

 

Give it time to settle in.

[Calistarius]

I hate reviving this thread, but I thought this was full of great examples.

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/40k-re-rolls-modifiers-rules-breakdown.html

[Arkhanist]

The designer's commentary is up, which confirms how dice rolls work, largely as we thought.

1) Reroll effects take place before any modifiers are applied

2) modifiers are cumulative

3) rolls can go higher than 6, but no lower than 1

4) If a rule refers to an unmodified die roll, it will specifically say so; otherwise it refers to the final number after applicable rerolls and modifiers.

 

And a bunch of other stuff stopping various bits of cheese.

 

So watch out overcharging your heavy plasma after moving - it'll blow up on a 1 or 2 roll! And no rerolling 3's from the dante aura either. But a reroll or modifier that stops you finishing on a result of 1 means you don't explode...

[Semirhagge]

yeah, I strongly feel that this rule will result in many feelsbadman times. I can only hope they look at it closely before the first Chapter Approved. I think that armies that can abuse the -1 modifiers will rise to the top in the comp scene. Just my prediction. In the mean time i will just tailor all my lists to minimize the effect of -1 mods.

[Arkangilos]

The FAQ didn't address the main argument, though. We all agreed on the example it gave (a reroll on a roll of X would be before modifiers). What we debated about was not answered, and that is what constitutes a pass/fail.

[Arkhanist]

It does.

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

Dante's aura is 'you can re-roll failed hit rolls'. from the rules, pg 181: "Hit rolls: ...If the roll is greater or equal than the attack model's BS, then it scores a hit with the weapon it's using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends."

 

Modifiers don't make any difference to whether a re-roll is triggered or not. So it's a straight BS/WS check - pass? no re-roll. Then you apply modifiers, and see what happens.

 

It's quite elegant really; for most marines, a chapter master re-roll hit buff is strictly twice as good as a captain's; for elites with 2+, it's the same. Makes it cleaner too; you usually don't need to work out what you're rolling against first, normal marines usually just  re-roll 1s and 2s in the buff aura. Only if you're on a net -4 penalty will a re-roll be pointless (because you will always miss) and only on a net +1 or better would you usually not want to re-roll 2s - and net positive hit buffs seem very rare. A different way of doing things, I'm sure we'll get used to it.

 

It does also mean though that straight +1 buffs are potentially worth more than re-rolls, and auto-hit weapons become that much more powerful. Now, which chapter gets easy access to auto-hit Str5 weapons...

[Quixus]

It does.

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?

A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

Dante's aura is 'you can re-roll failed hit rolls'. from the rules, pg 181: "Hit rolls: ...If the roll is greater or equal than the attack model's BS, then it scores a hit with the weapon it's using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends."

 

Modifiers don't make any difference to whether a re-roll is triggered or not. So it's a straight BS/WS check - pass? no re-roll. Then you apply modifiers, and see what happens.

 

It's quite elegant really; for most marines, a chapter master re-roll hit buff is strictly twice as good as a captain's; for elites with 2+, it's the same. Makes it cleaner too; you usually don't need to work out what you're rolling against first, normal marines usually just  re-roll 1s and 2s in the buff aura. Only if you're on a net -4 penalty will a re-roll be pointless (because you will always miss) and only on a net +1 or better would you usually not want to re-roll 2s - and net positive hit buffs seem very rare. A different way of doing things, I'm sure we'll get used to it.

How is deciding whether you actually want to reroll before modifiers more elegant than calculating whether a shot hits and just reroll if the shot misses?

 

It is also counter-intuitive that a 3 on a moving marine shooting a heavy weapon does not get a reroll, but a 2 on a stationary one does.

 

It does also mean though that straight +1 buffs are potentially worth more than re-rolls, and auto-hit weapons become that much more powerful. Now, which chapter gets easy access to auto-hit Str5 weapons...

Just wait how long we can keep out HF devastators.

[Arkangilos]

It does.

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?

A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

Dante's aura is 'you can re-roll failed hit rolls'. from the rules, pg 181: "Hit rolls: ...If the roll is greater or equal than the attack model's BS, then it scores a hit with the weapon it's using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends."

 

Modifiers don't make any difference to whether a re-roll is triggered or not. So it's a straight BS/WS check - pass? no re-roll. Then you apply modifiers, and see what happens.

 

It's quite elegant really; for most marines, a chapter master re-roll hit buff is strictly twice as good as a captain's; for elites with 2+, it's the same. Makes it cleaner too; you usually don't need to work out what you're rolling against first, normal marines usually just re-roll 1s and 2s in the buff aura. Only if you're on a net -4 penalty will a re-roll be pointless (because you will always miss) and only on a net +1 or better would you usually not want to re-roll 2s - and net positive hit buffs seem very rare. A different way of doing things, I'm sure we'll get used to it.

 

It does also mean though that straight +1 buffs are potentially worth more than re-rolls, and auto-hit weapons become that much more powerful. Now, which chapter gets easy access to auto-hit Str5 weapons...

It does not. The example it lists is the reroll of actual numbers, not fails or passes.

 

So take for example armor saves, the rules are clear that armor saves are passed or failed AFTER modifiers are applied. So how can you reroll a failed armor save before you know it fails?

[Arkangilos]

And your way isn't even all that good. It means you can pass an initial roll and not get the reroll, and then actually fail it, so there is no point to even shooting for rerolls.

[Arkhanist]

 

It does not. The example it lists is the reroll of actual numbers, not fails or passes.

 

So take for example armor saves, the rules are clear that armor saves are passed or failed AFTER modifiers are applied. So how can you reroll a failed armor save before you know it fails?

 

 

Did you miss the 'always'? 

"A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers."

 

I'm not sure how that could be any clearer. For a failed armour save re-roll (are there any?) you could re-roll ones that would naturally fail, i.e. 1 or 2 for power armour; or if you've opted to use your invulnerable iron halo because you know there are a bunch of modifers coming, a 1,2,3. Regardless of cover, AP, or any other modifiers. CP are your 're-roll this dice for whatever damn reason I like'.

 

I'm getting the feeling that even if they had explicitly used Dante in the example instead of the captain, you'd find some reason, any reason, to argue that allows other types of re-rolls to happen after modifiers are applied to decide pass/fail.

 

I didn't understand it at first, hated it. Now I see what their intent is - to make re-rolls more statistically calculable as a benefit, so it can be more easily balanced across armies, and avoid some weird edge cases that made re-rolls far too powerful, I can live with it. If you want to house rule with your group that some re-rolls happen after modifiers, go right ahead. 

 

But they've changed how re-rolls work in the rules. Love it, it hate it, it's just how it works now. And I think I'm done arguing on this.

[Morticon]

The FAQ has answered this as clearly and obviously as they had intended. 

Any other argument surrounding this is likely to be academic, and heavily reliant on semantics - and entirely moot. 

Consider this issue closed.