Return of the 6-man Lasplas?

[Ronin_eX]

Yeah, I know, a bit of a click-bait topic.  But I'm not sorry!  *is Canadian, is definitely sorry*

 

*ahem*

 

So, 8th edition has finally seen fit to give me back my proper combi-weapons again.  No more of this 1-shot malarky.  What's more, hidden fists (or what have you) can actually be a thing again with wound allocation being back in the defender's wheelhouse (and challenges being gone).

 

So now our sergeants have become unofficial special weapon carriers and fists are a good choice on them again.  What's more, the lascannon is a decent anti-vehicle (well anti-abunchofstuff) choice again and the Razorback is a fantastic IFV that is both tough and a hard hitter.

 

So dare I say it?  I think tactical squads may well be a viable choice in and of themselves again.  What's more, because it is the sergeant carrying the other big gun, for once the very concept no longer feels unfluffy.

 

Now, a few changes due to the new edition.

 

First, making it 6-man is optional.  With changes to morale, 5-man is likely more optimal, but 13 points for another body isn't a bad plan either.  With marines having Ld 8 and a re-rollable morale, there is only a 1-in-36 chance of losing an additional marine if you get three casualties (i.e. 50-60% of the unit).  So making it 5-man or 6-man is really a judgement call.  If you have the points to spare, I say fill the Razorback with the extra body.

 

Other downsides?  Well, combi-weapons are a touch more expensive than a normal special weapon because they can fire from each weapon (at a -1 to hit) which probably isn't worth it unless you're sitting on re-rolls.

 

Oh, and Razorbacks are quite expensive these days (even compared to their cost back in 3rd when the lasplas was contemporary).

 

Finally, with the change to how transports work, no firing out of the RB this time around.  But I think marines being so much tougher than before while in cover alongside the mobile heavy weapons makes up for this quite a bit.

 

But what does this unit look like in practice?

 

For 138 points you are getting a combi-plasma, a fist, a lascannon, and six pairs of boots on the ground.  This unit can deal with heavy infantry reasonably well, it can deal with monstrous creatures better than the equivalent in 3rd Edition (due to 2nd Edition style multi-wound making a return), and it can deal with basic troopers.  Plasma now has opt-in supercharge, so no risk of losing the sergeant unless you deem it worth the risk (have a Captain on standbye providing a Rite bubble for best effect).  Basically, like its namesake of old, it offers great flexibility at a relatively low cost.  For extra savings you can drop the fist and/or the extra body making the unit either 118 points or 125 respectively (or 105 without either).

 

Meanwhile, for some extra anti-infantry and light-vehicle oomph the twin assault cannon Razorback is looking like a pretty mean pillbox.  Grab it a hunter-killer missile and a storm bolter (because why not) and it comes in at 108 points.

 

So for 246 points you get:

6 MeQ bodies (which with the new cover rules and the new way Strength and Toughness interact are a lot tougher than they used to be)

1 RB body (quite tough now)

6-12 bolter shots (bolter marines+storm bolter on RB, 7-14 if the sergeant double-taps)

1-2 plasma shots (sergeant)

1 lascannon shot

12 assault cannon shots

1 H-K missile shot (one-time deal)

 

This unit has the flexibility to deal with any target, fire-splitting means that lascannon can always go where it needs to and those bolter shots never go to waste.  And if you're looking to fill out the more stringent detachments, a 6-man lasplas is a cheap troop choice (the RB is optional if you're trying to maximize models-per-point of course).

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is definitely some kind of massive power unit that all must take.  More just a thought exercise on a possible return of a squad configuration that saw the tactical marine become our prize unit several editions back.  With the last several editions pushing troops-for-troops sake rather than giving us a compelling reason to take tactical in and of themselves, I thought it was interesting that this unit configuration might be able to make a comeback and breath some new life in to the tactical squad.

 

And by all means, lasplas may not even be the best combo anymore.  Meltalas, lasgrav, flamalas?  Who knows.  And the RB is super flexible and could easily fill a role beyond being a pillbox.

 

So yeah, tactical squads have the potential for a bit more oomph in this edition, whether or not it will be worth the cost, however, will require some actual testing.

[Race Bannon]

To answer the question: sure, why not?

[Thoridon]

I think a 6-man Tac Squad in a twin assault cannon Razorback will be a very good unit. I'd consider swapping the Lascannon for a Grav Cannon, as:

 

1. In the transport, and utilising the plasma, you'd want to be disembarking within 24" anyway (probably within 12" for rapid fire) so don't need the lascannon range.

2. Grav Cannon is more effective against a range of targets, matching the versatility of the plasma guns.

3. With the -1 to hit after disembarking/moving the multiple shots of the grav cannon give more chance of getting hits in.

 

My only concern with plasma guns is that they really need to be overcharged against multi-wound targets, and that brings the risk of blowing up without a reroll. You could drop 1 bolter body to fit a Captain in the same Razorback to help with this, though it would add to the cost.

 

Alternatively swap the plasma guns for meltaguns, keep the 6th Tac body and you can put wounds into tough models without the risk of overcharged plasma.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Thoridon

[Bmseifer]

Just to add. Never take a power fist on a sergeant. Thunderhammer is the same points for non characters as a fist and is straight up better, 3 damage instead of D3. 

[Race Bannon]

Bump that, save points and use a Lightning Claw.

 

"Raven Guard, chopping 'em up since 30k."

[KhorneHunter57x]

For a few more points (and a forced Chapter keyword), you can do a 5- or 6-man Black Templar Crusader Squad with the combi, heavy, and an additional Special Weapon, because Crusaders can take both the Special and Heavy at minimum squad size.

 

Black Templars: Doing it better since 021.M31.

 

EDIT: Also, although having the extra body is nice, taking five Astartes instead of six makes more sense if you're using Power instead of Points to determine your army size. True, most competitive settings will use points, but it's still something to keep in mind.

Edited June 14, 2017 by KhorneHunter57x

[Schultzhoffen]

I'm looking at 6 men with combi plasma, power sword (so cheap), grav cannon and RB with twin assault cannons.

 

I think 4-5 of those units will give you a solid core at 2000 - 2250 points.

 

I could be wrong, though ( my wife tells me I'm always wrong. ;) ). We'll see...

Edited June 15, 2017 by Schultzhoffen

[PeteySödes]

Anyone have any thoughts on the twin plas/las option? I'm torn because I assume rules are as intended where the (optional) overcharge straight gibs the the RB on a 1 but the utility (read: las dmg) still seems pretty great. Assault cannons do look to be a bit safer but this is coming from a Space wolf player not able to grab Las in GH packs.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Crusader Squads also have the benefit of being able to take Neophyte (Scout) body as the sixth man shaving the cost a bit on top of the extra special weapon.

 

All around solid looking choices now though and I expect to see some more basic troops on the table. I'm happy to see more flexable options getting a boost this edition too. Might even break out some missile launchers or heavy bolters for these small squads too. It really feels like everything has a bit of purpose instead of being strictly a Grav game now.

[Captain Idaho]

I just feel like weapons alone aren't the source of power in 8th. Having a couple Las/plas squad with Razorbacks is a great support element, but who is taking objectives whilst they stand back and shoot?

 

Sure, they can move and fire, but ignoring they get a -1 to hit and all, Tactical squads moving towards objectives will sooner or later meet models travelling in that direction also.

 

Killhammer then yes, it's a case of maximising weapons/points efficiency, but why put a bunch of points into Lascannons that are going to be tied up in close combat in units too small to survive it?

 

I say take a couple such squads for cheap fire support, but don't go overboard.

 

I fully anticipate full Tactical squads in Rhinos coming back in a big way.

[Ronin_eX]

I just feel like weapons alone aren't the source of power in 8th. Having a couple Las/plas squad with Razorbacks is a great support element, but who is taking objectives whilst they stand back and shoot?

 

Sure, they can move and fire, but ignoring they get a -1 to hit and all, Tactical squads moving towards objectives will sooner or later meet models travelling in that direction also.

 

Killhammer then yes, it's a case of maximising weapons/points efficiency, but why put a bunch of points into Lascannons that are going to be tied up in close combat in units too small to survive it?

 

I say take a couple such squads for cheap fire support, but don't go overboard.

 

I fully anticipate full Tactical squads in Rhinos coming back in a big way.

 

 

This is part of it, yes.  They aren't a one stop shop in this edition as they were in 3rd.  Mech is expensive and they need more specialized support.  This is where I'm liking the new paradigm.  They are cheap(ish) and flexible units, but not the only thing you should take (especially not if you're aiming for some of the more balanced detachments).

 

The main reason I was pointing it out was down to a lot of baggage the past editions have built up over the years with regards the the three, core marine squads.

 

Originally, the whole "Troops capture objectives" rules push was to mitigate the fact that most troops units were not useful compared to the more powerful specialists in a given army, and thus many armies took minimum-sized troop squads to get it out of the way and take the better units in the list.  So GW basically just made troops straight up mandatory.

 

6-man lasplas was kind of interesting because for once, tacticals were actually useful in comparison to their more specialized brethren and it managed to do it in an environment where there was no onus to take more than minimum-sized trooper units.

 

With things swinging back toward troops no longer being a required component of a list, there was a danger that tacticals may get overshadowed again (and certainly that precise thing happened with the rise of the biker swarm).  However, in opening up a bit more firepower to them, I think GW may have given them a bit of a boost, enough so that one may want to use them because of their capabilities rather than because they are simply an onerous list requirement.

 

I don't think I would suggest spamming them either since you don't gain much from spamming endless troops either.  But they seem like a good pick when going for some of the more balanced detachments because they are both useful and also not terribly pricey for what they bring to the table.  So they can fill out slots and give some flexible firepower while they're at it.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I see a lot of people arguing that they will play power level instead of matched points play, so taking as much wargear as you can would be especially important in these types of games. Like, why would you not?

[MordentHex]

i would be worried about failing moral checks. sure you get the reroll but that can only do so much. I think full man squads are the way to go just for the extra wounds and just in case you role bad on a moral check. But that's my two cents.

[The Unseen]

i would be worried about failing moral checks. sure you get the reroll but that can only do so much. I think full man squads are the way to go just for the extra wounds and just in case you role bad on a moral check. But that's my two cents.

Except that doesn't check out.

With a 5 man squad, at 3 casualties, you have a 1/36 chance of losing 1 more dude.

(Only on a 6 with a reroll)

If you lose 4, you have a 1/9ish chance to lose 1 or 2 guys.

If you high roll, you lose a squad, but still only 1/36.

If you lose 5, you don't worry about morale, squad is dead.

In a 10 man squad however, you lose 5, and you have a 1/4 chance of losing more dudes

[MordentHex]

 

i would be worried about failing moral checks. sure you get the reroll but that can only do so much. I think full man squads are the way to go just for the extra wounds and just in case you role bad on a moral check. But that's my two cents.

Except that doesn't check out.

With a 5 man squad, at 3 casualties, you have a 1/36 chance of losing 1 more dude.

(Only on a 6 with a reroll)

If you lose 4, you have a 1/9ish chance to lose 1 or 2 guys.

If you high roll, you lose a squad, but still only 1/36.

If you lose 5, you don't worry about morale, squad is dead.

In a 10 man squad however, you lose 5, and you have a 1/4 chance of losing more dudes

 

Ok, just for giggle.

I used an online dice roller to add in the "luck factor"

5 mane squad taking 3 casualties: rolled 20 times taking into the re-roll they get for failed tests.

10 x rolls:  7 fails "without" the re-roll, 5 fail with the re-roll. squad dead or down to the last man.

10x rolls: 3 fails "without" the re-roll, 0 fail with the re-roll. squad is just fine.

That being rolled with have 1 or the 2 remaining marines still the sergeant. If he is lost the odds are a bit higher.

Your fractions are sound and probably on the mark, unfortunately D6 dice luck doesn't care.

The pendulum swings both ways. If it was a D20 or a D100 game i would probably bet on your odds, in a D6 game I would not, the pass/fail distinction is too tight.

I didn't bother with 4 casualties because the squad is effectively combat ineffective and can be finished off after or ignored. (Or will he? again dice luck)

 

The days of trying to min max like this are over i'm afraid and i can't honestly say i will miss them myself. Horde armies are going to have their turn this edition. The days of min/maxed unites like this one just as an example are gone.  GW did this on purpose to increase sales and to bring back the game for new players to actually get into and not get stomped flat by stuff like this as in previous editions. There will be new meta builds I'm sure, but a 10 man squad is still better(and cheaper if your using power points), it can be split into 2 5 man squads if you really really feel the need to take smaller squads.

 

I know all the above may come off sounding very argumentative, it is not meant to be so, I do not "argue" anything here on the B&C, read it and imagine Morgan Freeman saying it. that always helps. In the end everyone has their own opinions.

[Ronin_eX]

 

 

i would be worried about failing moral checks. sure you get the reroll but that can only do so much. I think full man squads are the way to go just for the extra wounds and just in case you role bad on a moral check. But that's my two cents.

Except that doesn't check out.

With a 5 man squad, at 3 casualties, you have a 1/36 chance of losing 1 more dude.

(Only on a 6 with a reroll)

If you lose 4, you have a 1/9ish chance to lose 1 or 2 guys.

If you high roll, you lose a squad, but still only 1/36.

If you lose 5, you don't worry about morale, squad is dead.

In a 10 man squad however, you lose 5, and you have a 1/4 chance of losing more dudes

 

Ok, just for giggle.

I used an online dice roller to add in the "luck factor"

5 mane squad taking 3 casualties: rolled 20 times taking into the re-roll they get for failed tests.

10 x rolls:  7 fails "without" the re-roll, 5 fail with the re-roll. squad dead or down to the last man.

10x rolls: 3 fails "without" the re-roll, 0 fail with the re-roll. squad is just fine.

That being rolled with have 1 or the 2 remaining marines still the sergeant. If he is lost the odds are a bit higher.

Your fractions are sound and probably on the mark, unfortunately D6 dice luck doesn't care.

The pendulum swings both ways. If it was a D20 or a D100 game i would probably bet on your odds, in a D6 game I would not, the pass/fail distinction is too tight.

I didn't bother with 4 casualties because the squad is effectively combat ineffective and can be finished off after or ignored. (Or will he? again dice luck)

 

The days of trying to min max like this are over i'm afraid and i can't honestly say i will miss them myself. Horde armies are going to have their turn this edition. The days of min/maxed unites like this one just as an example are gone.  GW did this on purpose to increase sales and to bring back the game for new players to actually get into and not get stomped flat by stuff like this as in previous editions. There will be new meta builds I'm sure, but a 10 man squad is still better(and cheaper if your using power points), it can be split into 2 5 man squads if you really really feel the need to take smaller squads.

 

I know all the above may come off sounding very argumentative, it is not meant to be so, I do not "argue" anything here on the B&C, read it and imagine Morgan Freeman saying it. that always helps. In the end everyone has their own opinions.

 

 

It isn't just one d6 though, a re-roll means we get a similar probability curve (well, peak) to a 2d6 roll.

 

A marine squad taking 3 casualties will only care about a morale roll of 6.  With a re-roll, this means you need to roll 6 twice (box cars) to eat the additional casualty.

 

A single d6 does have a totally linear distribution and any single result is as likely as any other, but the bottom line is marines don't roll a single d6.

 

Further, rolling 20 test rolls wont really give you an idea of how this pans out in practice.  I just did my own test and got through 41 roll before the hypothetical marine unit took an additional casualty.  But that isn't accurate either.  In general, expect (in the case of a 5 man squad suffering 3 casualties) 1-in-36 morale checks to actually fail.

 

Your test roll where you got 5 complete failures in 20 is a 1-in-60,466,176 chance.  Hell, if that occurred you shouldn't have done a test roll for marine morale, you should have bought a lottery ticket.  Probability isn't about predicting how often the dice will fail you, it is about giving you a statistically sound foundation upon which to make decisions.  They can still succeed or fail more frequently than is normal, but that doesn't change what we can tell about things.

 

Bottom line, marines are actually most efficient going for smaller squads, and I think this is by design.  Marines have always been the MSU faction (hell, if we weren't combat squads wouldn't have been a thing for 20 years).  Just like Orks and Nids are encouraged to go for larger units due to their morale rules, marines get the most bang for their buck out of small squads.

 

Take the example of a single 10-man marine squad that eats six casualties and two 5-man marine squads that eat three each.  The first one will fail a morale check on a 3+ and take additional casualties.  The two small squads will only take an additional casualty on a 6 and due to the way things work out, they can make a re-roll with absolute safety that the result wont be any worse than the failure they re-roll on.

 

Or what about the case where one of the 5-man squads eats the firepower that did 6 casualties to the 10-man?  In that case, sure the squad is dead, but it leaves the second squad totally unscathed.

 

Now this isn't to say marines never want large units.  Assault encourages big units for protracted combats so that each activation is causing maximal casualties.  So things like Assault Squads probably want to spring for being a 10-man if you want them getting stuck in.  But marine shooting units?  They still like being minimum size whether it is via buying small squads (which in the current detachment system is preferable where possible) or by splitting 10-man units in to combat squads.

 

Horde armies are finally getting a go, but that is due to specific rules in their armies that help them out.  Marines still have rules that encourage small elite units instead of large ones.  Large ones wont get you stomped, but they are still quite clearly the better choice for marines.  They work better with our morale rules, they help us fill out detachments (allowing for more CPs) and in quite a few cases allow us to maximize our firepower.

 

MSU is still the best route for marines, hordes are great, but they are great because things like conscript blobs+Commissar, synapse, and mob rule.  A horde without morale bonuses and low leadership quickly gets whittled down by morale, which is why most hordes have something to ignore or mitigate the effect.  Marines have a rule that best supports small, well-equipped units and I can't help but think that that is also by design.