8th Edition and the Crusader Squad

[ThatOneMarshal]

So with 8th rolling out and getting to play some games with the army I do have to say that I'm finding the Templars to be incredibly fun. However in my games I keep coming back to the Crusader squad and wondering: what is their use on the battlefield, ranged or melee and how do we equip them for their chosen roles.

 

In the past the Crusader worked well as a msu las/plas squad in a rhino. Is this still the go to ranged loadout or has it changed?

 

Generally speaking they weren't all that great in close combat compared to some of the other similar units around ( looking at you flayed ones!). The generally chosen loadout was a sword brother with a power sword, meltagun/ flames and a power axe on an intiate at generally 10-15 in a land raider or footslogging. Has it become viable?

[Banjulhu]

There are not many tools available to mitigate Morale entirely in the marines so squads over 10 are probably not worthwhile especially when the cost of 2 squads of 5 is the same as one of 10.

 

Let the 5 man Las-Plas squad return.

[Firepower]

While assault is better in several respects, it took some hits in regards to our old status.  The loss of our Rage/Counter-attack buff hurts potential, and the loss of attacks for Power Weapons hurt the Crusader Squad's heavy hitters a bit.  The former is quasi-temporary mind you, because while we simply don't have special rules aside from the Crusader Squad itself right now (Characters excluded) special rules are inevitable, but similar buffs are not guaranteed.

 

So the new standard smackdown load out for a melee squad is a Hammer for the SB and a hidden Fist, if you can find the points.  I find the trouble with this to inevitably be the points.  A Vanguard squad of 10 can come very close to the price of a loaded out Crusader Squad and do the smacking-of-downs better, with the one small nuisance of eating up those priceless elite slots.  They may be limited to 10 instead of 20 models per unit, but ablative wounds are pointless without special rules, and morale will wreck huge Crusader Squads if I understand correctly...which makes ablative wounds actually cause more damage to the squad, ironically enough.  

 

So then the one real treat of having a melee Crusader Squad right now is that they're troops.  It doesn't unlock a DT LRC, and doesn't get special melee buffs outside of taking chainswords.  Not that I'm gonna bust out the Bolter bitz and make whole new squads, mind you.  It's just important to notice shortcomings before you depend on a squad to do something it isn't qualified to.

 

All that being said, Crusader Squads are relatively dangerous shooty Troops.  Plasma, Grav Cannon, 5 bodies, done.  A combi on the SB if you're feeling you need one more unit to spit blue balls of radioactive death at slightly poorer accuracy, and a Razorback if you feel like making those 5 bodies last a little longer and want just a bit more shooty (and an actual Dedicated Transport ).

 

But as some have been all too giddy to point out, you can't mow down the necessary number of bodies to survive with just Marine shooting.  You need stabby.  If you want to put that into Troops then Crusader Squads require character buffs, whether that be Grim, his brain dead museum exhibits, or our wonderfully OP High Marshal.

[KhorneHunter57x]

One of the items I noticed is that Astartes Shotguns are now +1 Strength at half range - the ability to pump out shots that wound T4 on a 3+ is a useful ability for our Neophytes.

 

All that being said, Crusader Squads are relatively dangerous shooty Troops.  Plasma, Grav Cannon, 5 bodies, done.  A combi on the SB if you're feeling you need one more unit to spit blue balls of radioactive death at slightly poorer accuracy, and a Razorback if you feel like making those 5 bodies last a little longer and want just a bit more shooty (and an actual Dedicated Transport ).

Slightly poorer accuracy? You have the option of not firing the inbuilt boltgun, Brother.

 

I know that I'll be building at least a couple 5- or 6-man combi/special/heavy squads in Razorbacks to go alongside my 15+1 squads in LRCs.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I think one buff to our assault worth noting is that we hit MEQ on a 3+ instead if  4+ now. We'll also retain the same number of attacks in later rounds of fighting, if not in the first round. Our problems, currently, are the same ones that all other marines are dealing with. We're just incomplete right now.

[Firepower]

One of the items I noticed is that Astartes Shotguns are now +1 Strength at half range - the ability to pump out shots that wound T4 on a 3+ is a useful ability for our Neophytes.

 

All that being said, Crusader Squads are relatively dangerous shooty Troops.  Plasma, Grav Cannon, 5 bodies, done.  A combi on the SB if you're feeling you need one more unit to spit blue balls of radioactive death at slightly poorer accuracy, and a Razorback if you feel like making those 5 bodies last a little longer and want just a bit more shooty (and an actual Dedicated Transport ).

Slightly poorer accuracy? You have the option of not firing the inbuilt boltgun, Brother.

 

No, I don't.  I'll leave the self restraint to the Ultramarines, thank you.  B)

[Metic]

So vehicles can now transport any number of units up to the maximum number of occupants correct? So why not run 2-3 crusader squads inside a LRC for a total of 6 power weapons + special weapons and combis/pistols + say Helbrecht for re rolls and added melee strength. It's kind of pricey but I think it could be good.

[Acebaur]

I was thinking 2 squads plus some characters including an Apoc for durability.  This way you can still get cheap bodies with Neophytes have multiple units who can charge and still have room for characters. 

[Firepower]

3 with loaded options would cost too much against other units that could do it better (Vanguard). Even 2 is roughly equal in price with just a couple more bodies, which leaves you choosing between attacks and wounds.

 

At least if memory of my number crunching is accurate.

[Acebaur]

Yeah but they also fill troops slots which are required in certain Detachments

[Gendo]

So vehicles can now transport any number of units up to the maximum number of occupants correct? So why not run 2-3 crusader squads inside a LRC for a total of 6 power weapons + special weapons and combis/pistols + say Helbrecht for re rolls and added melee strength. It's kind of pricey but I think it could be good.

 

They better pile on top of each other if they want the buff, the strength aura its for models within 6", I don't see any of our buffs being very useful for more than one unit, except the Cenobytes which have 12".

[Firepower]

Well the reroll buff from Helbrecht (applies to units, no models) could be useful for 2 units if you put them in the Raider together, and the Champion if you bring him along as well for extra monster murdering.

 

But no, you aren't gonna buff the whole army with anything we have.  But what buffs we have can be murderous if applied to the right squad and targets.

 

The question is whether Crusader squads are the right squads to buff.  It's raising a mediocre squad up to a good one, or you can apply those buffs to a good squad and make them vicious.  I lean towards the latter.  Without anything to make the Crusaders special beyond chainswords right now, they're more of a Troop tax than they used to be.  On the other hand, taking a mediocre squad and buffing them, if you can also find points for squads that are good out of the gate (I continue to lean towards Vanguard) makes the whole infantry section of your army good, but nothing great.

[bolvar]

I can't see crusader squads classified as mediocre or troop tax.

 

They have one of the best gear options, and are largely buffed by core rules in 8th. Sure, they are troop unit, but they are a good troop unit. They can do the same than before and much more.

 

Maybe it's because I still have the old idea of that troop units are the core and heart of the army, and the rest is there to fulfill specific roles toward specific targets.

 

I'll be using them far and wide

[redmapa]

Since we dont have that many close combat buffs right now I think crusader squads and helbrecht are better off being run as shooty squads and in support of other squad that can also shoot. Basically 10 guys with bolters, special and two power weapons OR several small squads with heavy weapons.

 

Helbrecht in particular could be brutal deep striking with several devastator squads and a Lieutenant, maybe supported by deep striking terminators, all drop in and fire with rerolls to hit and rerolling 1s to wound then the termies could charge something.

[Gendo]

Well the reroll buff from Helbrecht (applies to units, no models) could be useful for 2 units if you put them in the Raider together, and the Champion if you bring him along as well for extra monster murdering.

 

But no, you aren't gonna buff the whole army with anything we have.  But what buffs we have can be murderous if applied to the right squad and targets.

 

The question is whether Crusader squads are the right squads to buff.  It's raising a mediocre squad up to a good one, or you can apply those buffs to a good squad and make them vicious.  I lean towards the latter.  Without anything to make the Crusaders special beyond chainswords right now, they're more of a Troop tax than they used to be.  On the other hand, taking a mediocre squad and buffing them, if you can also find points for squads that are good out of the gate (I continue to lean towards Vanguard) makes the whole infantry section of your army good, but nothing great.

 

I agree, but I've always relied on Infantry and will try and make it work. At the moment I'm leaning towards a shoot into charge approach.

 

3x 10 man squads with 2 cheap power weapons depending on buff, Plasma Pistol and either a Plasmagun or Gravgun with about 3 Bolters or Shotguns the rest being chainswords out of Rhinos and LRC with beast punching Vets and HQ.

The intention being to get out first turn or survive the shooting in my boxes then shoot hard, throw a grenade and then charge, if i lose models I discard the Bolters keeping more CC for the charge. Add Deathwind Launchers to everything.

 

Or drop the Rhinos and LRC, have Grimaldus with Retinue and Apothecary in a sandwich of 2 large squads on foot loaded as before plus a Gravcannon or Plasmacannon, pass morale tests and have a chance to revive.

Vets with EC will go in an AC Razorback.

[Firepower]

Yeah, I keep juggling Crusaders around in my experimental lists from core units to vestigial hangers-on.  I am at an odd stage where I know what I need to paint, but not how to build lists around the units :P

 

Finish the Ironclads, build some Hammer and Claw Sword Brethren to stick in Crusader Squads or Vanguard, Storm Talons and a Storm Raven...and then blaaaaah on another piece of paper with a crap list scrawled out in crappy handwriting. :teehee:

 

From what I've found in my trials, we seem to need an all or nothing approach in list themes.  'Want an LRC?  Better go all out on that heavy armor because you won't be able to take a useful collection of smaller/cheaper units after all the points that will take.'

 

Starting to drift off topic now, so I'll stop there :lol:

[Lysere]

My lists so far see crusaders mostly used one of two ways. Large blob that can take casualties and still remain effective to act as a shield for the much more important characters, and smaller squads meant to deliver certain weapons into the enemy for cheap.

 

I'll see which of my early lists seem to work better and keep tinkering.

[Firepower]

Big blobs without Cenobyte buffs to compensate for the Morale blow they'll take after losing all those bullet sponge rookies seem like a serious liability.  While that sounds bad, it means that Cenobytes are useful again!  :D

[Lysere]

Big blobs without Cenobyte buffs to compensate for the Morale blow they'll take after losing all those bullet sponge rookies seem like a serious liability. While that sounds bad, it means that Cenobytes are useful again! :D

With how cheap the trio is almost no reason to not take them. My attempt at a tide list includes a couple razorbacks for them to hide behind to try and not get shot.

[Gendo]

Big blobs without Cenobyte buffs to compensate for the Morale blow they'll take after losing all those bullet sponge rookies seem like a serious liability.  While that sounds bad, it means that Cenobytes are useful again!  

 

Feel you brother, the way I used to play it's worthless in this edition plus I want to incorporate other stuff which doesn't make it easier.

 

Cenobytes seem like the best buff when running multiple infantry squads, and Apothecaries go well with that, I might as well just run a Chaplain to work in tandem. 

[Ciler]

While assault is better in several respects, it took some hits in regards to our old status.  The loss of our Rage/Counter-attack buff hurts potential, and the loss of attacks for Power Weapons hurt the Crusader Squad's heavy hitters a bit.  The former is quasi-temporary mind you, because while we simply don't have special rules aside from the Crusader Squad itself right now (Characters excluded) special rules are inevitable, but similar buffs are not guaranteed.

It is worth making note that blood angel death company and SW blood claws (as well as skyclaws and switclaws) kept their additional attack on the charge. I do not believe we are intended to get this sort of special rule at a later time.

 

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, mind.

[Firepower]

Nah, doubtful.  Wolves and Death Company are far more special snowflakes than us.  

 

On a very random tangent question, can Crusader Squads deploy in units from another detachment?  For instance, if you take a Stormraven as part of an Airwing Detachment, and have a C Squad in your Battalion.

[redmapa]

If both units share the black templar keyword i dont see why not, all transports have a keyword relating to who they can transport so no marines in chimeras or space wolves inside a blood angel transport for example.

[Firepower]

Nice, then I actually made a list that doesn't 100% stink...like, 60% at worst.

 

3 mini Crusader squads armed to the teeth in an LRC with Helbrecht, then go to town with what points you got left.  Seems to work on paper.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Nice, then I actually made a list that doesn't 100% stink...like, 60% at worst.

 

3 mini Crusader squads armed to the teeth in an LRC with Helbrecht, then go to town with what points you got left. Seems to work on paper.

See I'm not sure if it would better to instead go with vanguard again or a command squad since they both have 2 attacks standard and can have more power weapons. But it's a whole lot less fun then Crusader squads.