8th Edition and the Crusader Squad

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

I can't bring myself to let go of the Crusader Squad, no matter the limitations. As someone stated before, maybe this is just the old train of thought making them the basis for the entire army with other units there for support. I have yet to get a great look at the core rules/index to make any lists, but I don't really see that mindset changing.

 

A lot of my Crusaders are currently loaded out for shooting with a few choppy troops, and I'm in the process of expanding them right now, so I'll have a good mix of shooters vs CC. Yeah, the LRC got more pricey, but I just love putting that brick on the table and watching eyes bulge! It's a serious contender again, even though it's not a DT any longer.

 

So, I see small 5-10 man Crusader Squads (50/50 mix of Initiates to Neophytes in the 10 man) geared up for CC either in transports or alongside 10 man shooters (Add Neo's as needed) with Characters in tow. Spread out Characters along the line where they're sure to be needed most, and get that EC up with the CC guys. I'll have to play a few games to see what the overall spread will look like, but that's the overall plan in my mind.

[Schlitzaf]

To echo Ryan, Crusader Squads, have for me defined more than anything else who and what Black Templars are as an army. Beside memes, I never understood the insistence, on our hyper focus on Chaplains (and to a lesser extent our vows from 4th). What made us not Vanilla, was RZ, Fearless in CCW, Crusader Squads and the Mandatory Emperor's Champion back in the 4th Ed Dex. And while over the years we lost most of the above. Except the Crusader Squad. I've had folks "What makes s Black Templar army, Black Templar?" My answer is the Crusader Squad, and the ad hoc squad configuration giving a band of brothers feel vs a very regimented look of the Codex Compliant chapters.

 

And for me personally ever sense 6th, I read our chapter tactics as "Gain Access to the Crusader Squad and these other nice things." So departing the good old Crusader Squad, just feels wrong. And why if we ever get a real update, what I'd want over anything else, is more Initiate-Scout Squad mixes (A Crusader Bikers, being the foremost example, we could even get that despite being rolled. Because it is mechanically easy to create.). But I tangented. A Templar army without Crusader Squads is not a Templar Army. It be liking doing Blood Angels without Assault Marines, Gaurdsman without a horde of tanks or infantry. So on and so forth. I guess to ask another way, just to build on Ryan's post, without Crusader Squads, why mechanically play Templars?

[Brother Christopher]

To echo Ryan, Crusader Squads, have for me defined more than anything else who and what Black Templars are as an army. Beside memes, I never understood the insistence, on our hyper focus on Chaplains (and to a lesser extent our vows from 4th). What made us not Vanilla, was RZ, Fearless in CCW, Crusader Squads and the Mandatory Emperor's Champion back in the 4th Ed Deck. And while over the years we lost most of the above. Except the Crusader Squad. I've had folks "What makes s Black Templar army, Black Templar?" My answer is the Crusader Squad, and the ad hoc squad configuration giving a band of brothers feel vs a very regimented look of the Codex Compliant chapters.

 

 

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/073/7686178464_fdc8ea66c7.jpg

[Schlitzaf]

Yes? Mechanically what defined Black Templars in our 4th Edition? Flavor aside, if you're design more Unique Units for us, what made our army our army? I mean I get as a fandom we love our chaplains and ZEAL, I choose this army because I am a Medieval Historian. (Or was/am studying to be one). I dunno, what I am getting at here exactly, but when you dig into it, what I listed (and what we lacked; Whirlwinds, Devestators and Librarians), defined our army and our chapter on the tabletop mechanically than anything else.

[Acebaur]

I agree that the crusader squads are definitely a defining trait of us on the table top.

 

The thing with chaplains is that we are described as being far more zealous than your average marines. Chaplains are usually the ones who are the most zealous in a chapter, and so the fan base has become enamored of our chaplains because surely they must be far more zealous than all the other chaplains. I think that's where that comes from

[Firepower]

To echo Ryan, Crusader Squads, have for me defined more than anything else who and what Black Templars are as an army. Beside memes, I never understood the insistence, on our hyper focus on Chaplains (and to a lesser extent our vows from 4th). What made us not Vanilla, was RZ, Fearless in CCW, Crusader Squads and the Mandatory Emperor's Champion back in the 4th Ed Dex. And while over the years we lost most of the above. Except the Crusader Squad. I've had folks "What makes s Black Templar army, Black Templar?" My answer is the Crusader Squad, and the ad hoc squad configuration giving a band of brothers feel vs a very regimented look of the Codex Compliant chapters.

 

And for me personally ever sense 6th, I read our chapter tactics as "Gain Access to the Crusader Squad and these other nice things." So departing the good old Crusader Squad, just feels wrong. And why if we ever get a real update, what I'd want over anything else, is more Initiate-Scout Squad mixes (A Crusader Bikers, being the foremost example, we could even get that despite being rolled. Because it is mechanically easy to create.). But I tangented. A Templar army without Crusader Squads is not a Templar Army. It be liking doing Blood Angels without Assault Marines, Gaurdsman without a horde of tanks or infantry. So on and so forth. I guess to ask another way, just to build on Ryan's post, without Crusader Squads, why mechanically play Templars?

 

It's certainly odd to be on the receiving end of that lecture, for a change :D

 

When I address the current Crusader Squad, I am certainly not against them.  I'm as fanatical for our original blessed status as anyone.  But currently, there are some things to adjust to for 8th edition.  One is squad size.  A huge blob squad is a danger, not a boon, because of new Morale systems.  These can be circumvented by the Cenobytes to a degree, and if you want to run big blobs, they're a must.  

 

That said, not running Crusaders in huge size is not the same as being against Crusader squads.  In the previous edition or two, I always recommended capping out Crusader Squads at 12-14 models, but adored Tide.  This was because our particular benefits of doubled CC special weapons became pointless if you were taking a full 20 man squad (at that point, you were bringing less to the table than 2 10 man squads), and because 20 man squads were unwieldy and difficult to get around the table.  All the same, I was (and am) a huge Tide fan, and long for our old glory days of marching 60+ marines up the field in an unstoppable rush of zeal and fury.

 

Running a Tide-like list now, or at least an infantry heavy list, is currently much better suited to small squads, but that is not the same as being against an infantry centric army.  If the body count stays the same between 2 huge squads and 4 small ones, then it's still the same effect.  Aside from being our iconic unit, the big bonus to having a Crusader squad is still being able to take more weapons in a smaller unit, and taking a large collection of small squads rather than 2 big ones is a real benefit that we can exploit to make up for lacking any Chapter tactics-esque power for the moment.

 

All that said, there isn't much to be special about Templars right at this moment.  That's because we have no Chapter Tactics to bring back our propriety rights to Dedicated Transport LRCs and the like.  So as it stands, I'm looking to other squads to buff Templar armies to play like Templar armies, or to use Crusader Squads in previously unconventional ways*.  The absent Chapter Tactics is not a permanent state of affairs, and while we wait for those, this strikes me as our best option.

 

In general, I've always railed against meta for the sake of preserving identity.  When shooting became the norm in previous editions, I built all my lists around 2 14ish man melee C Squads and grew out from there, rather than MSU shooty squads that were far more dangerous in most minds.  But as things stand, without special Templar rules, the temporary solution is to use the Squad's particular strengths to play as assault oriented Ultramarines, because on the tabletop that is basically what we are until we are given a more specific rule identity.

 

And if those eventual rules are inadequate, I'll still find a way to make Templars play like Templars, even if I have to go about it in strange ways ;)

 

*This is buffed by new transport rules.  For instance, taking an HQ and 3 5 man C Squads in a LRC rather than one big one, as you can cram a lot of special toys into 3 squads rather than taking one squad with less toys and Morale liabilities.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I mean sure other Chaplains are really cool, but are they back handing an ork with an oversized flyswatter cool?

 

http://orig12.deviantart.net/27cd/f/2014/349/d/9/d98f53120f1d492414ab28f27c319853-d89x0r7.jpg

 

Or plasma pistol to the face while looking the other way cool?

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qLLtjqEA6Z8/UwVO8jBsxiI/AAAAAAAAAgk/QvpXvPXH5JA/s1600/bloodandfirefull.jpg

 

Okay well of course in a sea of Chaplains Grimaldus would stand out, but yeah even our "basic" Chaplains are just better at their job then everyone elses, I mean it practically says as much in the holy tome.

[Firepower]

The whole special Chaplain thing is from the fan base.  As far as GW is concerned, Dark Angels are the ones with super special Chaplains.

 

I side with the fan base on this one, naturally. ;)

[Gendo]

To me what makes Black Templars it's the fluff, it's what made me buy some dice like some D&D weirdo and pick up that strange thing called a brush and settled for no less than a fully painted army even before I played my first ever game.

 

I don't want to be those Imperial Fists standing there with Boltguns trying to defend a civilian shelter, I want to be the guy that goes where the is deepest and cut through filth with my Chainsword and fists.

 

Our Chaplains don't need to remind us not to fall back or to keep our drive, our Chaplains are more brutal Crusaders with an higher rank.

 

The day I move one of my models back I'll quit playing, for now I'll just buy more Chainsword Marines. 

 

More on topic: Smaller units splitting out of Rhinos or LRC seems like great flexibility but for some reason I can't wrap my head around the new combat rules :( We're supposed to wrap around the enemy as only the closest models can shoot the pistols and only 2 rows can fight, if that's the case only one unit at the time can be in the fight effectively right?

Care to explain like I've just been hit in the head by an Axe?

[Castellan Doren]

Why not run 4 5 man units in a LRC with claws on the SB, just chainswords for everyone else. 16 chainsword attacks, 12 LC attacks.

 

I think we can get more volume using claws on on 4 units of min VV's, but it would get crazy expensive. And not to mention the elite slot usage.

 

I think GW is trying to force us to play differently than we used to.

[T-Rock]

I understand we aren't as snowflake as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but in my opinion, you have to really squint to see the glass as half empty. Complaining we're vanilla before the codex drops is premature, and even if we don't get amazing chapter tactics, we can play how Black Templars are supposed to play and be GOOD. Who cares if other codex chapters can do it similarly (though not as good thanks to crusader squads)? Why does it matter if there aren't mechanisms forcing us to play a certain way?

 

I've played four games of each and they been the most freaking Templar games I've played since 4th. I'm talking Emperor's Champion doing 13 wounds against a demon prince in one combat, Helbrecht ROFLstomping Belial with his melta and Sword of the High Marshals, sword brothers hammering chaos terminators to death, LRCs tanking wounds and mowing down hordes of orks.

 

And unlike previous editions, this list won. 3/4 games. It's a great time to be a Templar brothers!

[SydonianDragoon404]

How did the emperor's champion deal 13 wounds if he only has 4 attacks? Grimaldus?

[KhorneHunter57x]

How did the emperor's champion deal 13 wounds if he only has 4 attacks? Grimaldus?

As befitting his sacred duty, The Emperor's Champion gains an additional attack when close to an enemy Character.

[T-Rock]

+1 attack because the demon prince is a monstor/character. Re-roll hits and wounds gave me 5 wounds at D3 damage. Very healthy rolling for damage.

 

He is an absolute beast.

 

Edit: Beat me to the punch.

[Lysere]

+1 attack because the demon prince is a monstor/character. Re-roll hits and wounds gave me 5 wounds at D3 damage. Very healthy rolling for damage.

 

He is an absolute beast.

 

Edit: Beat me to the punch.

That is good to hear. My champion did some serious work last edition and terrified my enemies. I was worried this might not be the case with the loss of instant death on a 6.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Wow I totally missed that, I knew about +1 strength against characters, didn't see the +1 attack that's awesome.

[Gendo]

Wow I totally missed that, I knew about +1 strength against characters, didn't see the +1 attack that's awesome.

 

And another +1A in 8th as a warlord trait, potentially 6 attacks at S7 -3

[Gendo]

I understand we aren't as snowflake as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but in my opinion, you have to really squint to see the glass as half empty. Complaining we're vanilla before the codex drops is premature, and even if we don't get amazing chapter tactics, we can play how Black Templars are supposed to play and be GOOD. Who cares if other codex chapters can do it similarly (though not as good thanks to crusader squads)? Why does it matter if there aren't mechanisms forcing us to play a certain way?

 

I've played four games of each and they been the most freaking Templar games I've played since 4th. I'm talking Emperor's Champion doing 13 wounds against a demon prince in one combat, Helbrecht ROFLstomping Belial with his melta and Sword of the High Marshals, sword brothers hammering chaos terminators to death, LRCs tanking wounds and mowing down hordes of orks.

 

And unlike previous editions, this list won. 3/4 games. It's a great time to be a Templar brothers!

 

Did you play against strong shooters? Had mostly won games in 7th but had no chance vs the likes of Eldar or AdMech who roll 60 dice in shooting.

[Jacques Corbin]

So was pouring over the new rules and Space Marine index. Grimaldus is now even more beastly. His rule, Unmatched Zeal, is scary. Basically, if you roll a 6 to hit when chopping away in his bubble, you get a free chop. Add to that the extra chop a Chainsword gives you, and that is a lot. The shotgun being S5 at half range is nasty too.

 

Edit: Also, Crusade (Company) Ancients? That banner gives +1Ld within 6", and on a 4+ each casualty can either shoot one of its weapons or get in one more chop. Roll a 6 on that chop with Grimaldus around for another chop. Now the question is, does having a Chainsword equipped add the extra chop for using a Chainsword? Because that could mean up to 4 chops (1 for banner + 1 for Chainsword + 1 more per 6 you roll to hit if Grimaldus is close) right when that model is removed.

 

I say run an Ironclad Dreadnought with Ironclad Assault Launchers. Have y'all seen those things now?! You get in combat, and on a 4+, he inflicts D3 Mortal Wounds! Couple that with the fact that he rerolls 1s to hit when he had 2 CCWs, and even a Landraider will be limping along after being charged by this guy.

[T-Rock]

 

 

I understand we aren't as snowflake as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but in my opinion, you have to really squint to see the glass as half empty. Complaining we're vanilla before the codex drops is premature, and even if we don't get amazing chapter tactics, we can play how Black Templars are supposed to play and be GOOD. Who cares if other codex chapters can do it similarly (though not as good thanks to crusader squads)? Why does it matter if there aren't mechanisms forcing us to play a certain way?

 

I've played four games of each and they been the most freaking Templar games I've played since 4th. I'm talking Emperor's Champion doing 13 wounds against a demon prince in one combat, Helbrecht ROFLstomping Belial with his melta and Sword of the High Marshals, sword brothers hammering chaos terminators to death, LRCs tanking wounds and mowing down hordes of orks.

 

And unlike previous editions, this list won. 3/4 games. It's a great time to be a Templar brothers!

Did you play against strong shooters? Had mostly won games in 7th but had no chance vs the likes of Eldar or AdMech who roll 60 dice in shooting.

The DA list I played against had quite a bit of shooting, but probably not the same level as an Admech or Guard list. I purposefully have a low unit count army so I can go first (especially against those armies) allowing me to drop grav/melta/plasma in their backfield and cripple whatever threatens me most. In my last game I brought a landraider to 2 wounds and killed an intecessor squad with my alpha strike. Hitting hard and hitting first are key to ensuring the meat of my list (Crusaders, EC, Helbrecht in an LRC) can make it in to combat.

 

Pivoting back to crusader squads though, I'm seeing them as the main course of my meal of zeal, but not the whole dinner. I feel like eighth rewards lists that are balanced enough to handle a variety of builds. Unless you're models are THE BEST at what they do, you're going to need a variety of tools in your list to combat the increasing variety of builds that are viable in 8th. With their extra special/heavy weapon and cheaper neophyte option, crusader squads might be meta defining, but they are a very solid option.

[Acebaur]

BTW guys, I posted up the Unit of the week in the main Astartes forum. We're doing 3 this week to kick off the new edition. One of them is the LR and sadly these lesser chapters have shown no interest in discussing our mightiest transport! Let's get in there and show them why the LRC should be feared again!

[Lysere]

BTW guys, I posted up the Unit of the week in the main Astartes forum. We're doing 3 this week to kick off the new edition. One of them is the LR and sadly these lesser chapters have shown no interest in discussing our mightiest transport! Let's get in there and show them why the LRC should be feared again!

Well most marine players probably don't even own one. (I mean three of my four were bought off of marine players)

 

Naturally it falls to the Templars to get things done.

[Castellan Doren]

How can you not own a tank nick named the lawnmower?

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

I posted a small BatRep in my thread, but the Crusader Squad with CCW inside of the Buff Bubbles is particularly vicious! I don't feel that they have been reduced at all.

 

Shooting, on the other hand, didn't work out so well for me, but that may be my dice being corrupted by the ruinous powers.

[Ciler]

Shooting works fine. In a game on sunday, I've podded a min crusader squad with grav-canon, grav-gun and combi-grav. Bye bye Khârn turn 1...