Crowe - Does he have *any* redeeming features?

[Gentlemanloser]

Am I right to totally and utterly dismiss Crowe in 8th edition?

 

He's not too expensive, at 125 points, but what does he actually do?

 

First, he has +1W and +1A over the Brotherhood Champion.  He's lost the Stances that normal Brotherhood Champions get, so can't get +1 to wound, or +1 to saves.  Both get an Iron Halo, so the normal Champion could have a 3++ in CC.  And compared to 7th, Crowe lost his natural Rending.

 

In return he gets rerolls to failed hits and wounds in CC.  Which isn't really great, with our Daemon Hunters rule, or the rerolls coming from Driago, Voldus or a GKGM.  The +1 to wound on a Champion is better, as it stacks with rerolls from other sources.

 

And the biggie.  Each time he wounds, you get another attack.

 

Should be great, this should make Crowe an amazing choice!

 

Except once again he fights with a blunt stick... AP0, D1.  Compared to the Champion's Force Swords AP-3 Dd3.

 

/sigh

 

Who cares if Crowe can get potentially an extra 5 attacks (as the extra attacks can't proc more extra attacks), if they use the normal base Marine stat as a weapon.

 

Crowe needed to retain a native Rend.  All his successful wound rolls should have been AP-4.  And trigger another attack.  Then he would be an awesome choice.

 

As it is, I can't seem him being used.  Ever.  By anyone.

 

He offers no army synergy any more, no buffs to other Purifiers.  Oh Crowe gets Cleansing Flame as well.  Still not enough to redeem him.

 

Stick a Champion next to Draigo or Voldus and smash faces in CC with him instead.

 

 

A Brotherhood Champion is 113 points, for comparison.

 

 

[Captain Coolpants]

Well he does get the cleansing flame. And if you're going against chaff like orks, more attacks is far more useful than ap-3. But that's just tailoring.

 

You're better off with 5 purifiers with falchions, more attack, many more shots, and any multi wound attacks won't spill over so is more survivable. At something like 15pts more.

 

So yes, in most cases he is just utter crap and won't be used by anyone (unless it's for narrative or you simply just like the model)

Edited June 15, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[Gentlemanloser]

The model is great!  Makes a brilliant Knight of the Flame. ;)

 

Or generic Brotherhood Champion.

[Captain Coolpants]

To me, he's just a poo champion. I won't take the champion either, but that's just me lol

 

It's a similar situation with the paladin ancient and the Brotherhood ancient. They're literally the same, except the paladin hits on 2s and has an extra attack. For 12pts difference. Why wouldn't you spend the extra 12 points?.. Makes no sense.

[TheMostGood]

IDK, looking at his dataslate he seems designed to tar pit but still do damage to enemies. 2+/4++ is pretty good and allows him to do well against troops and HQs. His fight phase seems rather weak against any unit that has a decent armor save, but being able to do 1-6 mortal wounds and still survive combat is what I think makes him powerful. Give him purge soul accompanied with smite and he can dish out a good number of mortal wounds IMO. Wounds that cannot be saved. 

 

He is still lack luster in terms of ability, which is kind of a shame since he is a really cool character. I feel that the GK codex would likely flesh him out, but I wouldn't call him useless. I would use him as a tar pit fighter or go after a weak flank. I would assume other imperial armies could use him in much the same way. 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

You can't tarpit in this edition.

 

He tries, does no damage (due to S4, AP0, D1 attacks), the opponent Falls back with that unit, and shoots Crowe to death with another.

[the jeske]

maybe his job is to cast flame and peril at the same time. making him mortal wound everything twice.

[Sothalor]

He... can provide a good litmus test for GW's claim that they'll do rapid iterations of balance changes going forward?

[TheMostGood]

You can't tarpit in this edition.

 

He tries, does no damage (due to S4, AP0, D1 attacks), the opponent Falls back with that unit, and shoots Crowe to death with another.

 

It's super easy to find the worst possible situation and claim that's why X unit is bad. I can do that with any other unit and get the same result. 

The point I made with tarpit was that you could use Crowe as a screening unit or for heroic intervention. He is likely to survive combat, and then swing hard with D6 mortal wounds. He may not be amazing in a GK army, but I can see his use in an Imperial Soup army. 

 

Think outside of the box and you can find uses for him. Like I suggested earlier, he might not blow your :cuss off, but he is far from useless. 

 

For example, a comparable unit of purifiers may not last long against certain unit compositions. Crowe could. Conversely, purifiers might tear apart certain units where Crowe might not do well against. I get the impression that Crowe is more of a scalpel rather than an all around good unit to always take. 

 

Edit: Looked further into this. A basic squad of 5 purifiers and Crowe is 265pts. Get them within range and they can throw out two D6 (average of a D6 is 3.5) mortal wounds. If your meta has a lot of heavy hitting melee boys, you can use Crowe and his purifiers to clean up shop. A Swarmlord is 300pts and Draigo is 240pts. This combination can probably one shot Draigo in the psychic phase on average dice and has a good chance of removing multiple wounds off of the Swarmlord. 

 

This is a reactive use for Crowe and his purifier team, but can be used to blunt hard hitting melee units. 

 

The important thing to note with the above, is that going first in combat is pretty much a must. The outcome of a fight between a Swarmlord and Rowboat Girlyman often comes down to who charges who first. So with Crowe and his Purifier team, you would want them to be able to get their psychic phase off on the target before combat, because surviving combat is not always a guarantee. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Valerian
Inappropriate language is against board rules. Keep it family friendly.

[duz_]

Tarpitting is still a thing

It works slightly different and isn't as broken as it was in 7th

 

Yes you are correct the unit can fall back, but Crowe and co still advance forward and charge them again the following turn. With the benefit of shooting them inbetween with rapid fire 2 shots!

You also make sure you arrange your models in such away Crowe can't be targeted.

 

This doesnt discount the fact Crowe at an initial glance does seem underwheliming. Remember this is just the beta of the rules until codex drop. Im sure there will be combinations he works well in.

Perhaps he shines more in an allied setting?

[Rurik the blessed]

 

You can't tarpit in this edition.

 

He tries, does no damage (due to S4, AP0, D1 attacks), the opponent Falls back with that unit, and shoots Crowe to death with another.

 

It's super easy to find the worst possible situation and claim that's why X unit is bad. I can do that with any other unit and get the same result. 

The point I made with tarpit was that you could use Crowe as a screening unit or for heroic intervention. He is likely to survive combat, and then swing hard with D6 mortal wounds. He may not be amazing in a GK army, but I can see his use in an Imperial Soup army. 

 

Think outside of the box and you can find uses for him. Like I suggested earlier, he might not blow your off, but he is far from useless. 

 

For example, a comparable unit of purifiers may not last long against certain unit compositions. Crowe could. Conversely, purifiers might tear apart certain units where Crowe might not do well against. I get the impression that Crowe is more of a scalpel rather than an all around good unit to always take. 

 

Edit: Looked further into this. A basic squad of 5 purifiers and Crowe is 265pts. Get them within range and they can throw out two D6 (average of a D6 is 3.5) mortal wounds. If your meta has a lot of heavy hitting melee boys, you can use Crowe and his purifiers to clean up shop. A Swarmlord is 300pts and Draigo is 240pts. This combination can probably one shot Draigo in the psychic phase on average dice and has a good chance of removing multiple wounds off of the Swarmlord. 

 

This is a reactive use for Crowe and his purifier team, but can be used to blunt hard hitting melee units. 

 

The important thing to note with the above, is that going first in combat is pretty much a must. The outcome of a fight between a Swarmlord and Rowboat Girlyman often comes down to who charges who first. So with Crowe and his Purifier team, you would want them to be able to get their psychic phase off on the target before combat, because surviving combat is not always a guarantee. 

 

 

Indeed... Crowe isn't bad at all... think on him as a fusion between purifier and a bro champ...

 

he can make a very good sinergia with purifiers or any other unit... as support

just leave it behind the wall and get use of his heroic intervention

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I can't really see any any reason to use Purifiers or Crowe in this edition. Cleansing Flame has pathetically short range, and neither of them are especially durable for their points. We already have some of the best CC heroes in the game, and Dreadknights can stab most enemy heroes and vehicles to death reliably. 3" range, 6" assuming you stick them next to a Brother-Captain, is very low. You can't Teleport Strike, and 'Gate' doesn't get you in range either. 

 

The only way to make Crowe or Purifiers viable is sticking them inside a Raven to troll people with point blank suicide drops and character sniping. That's a very expensive strategy however. You could probably just spend the same on Dreadnought fire support or Dreadknights to stab things. 

 

GW dropped the ball on Purifiers in 8th. Someone clearly had been burned by Cleansing Flame novas in the past, and had their revenge. 

 

Also FYI, Mortal Wounds are powerful, but there a myriad of 'I ignore damage on a 6' or 'I ignore damage on a 5 and 6' abilities. There is even an example in our own codex on Venerable Dreadnoughts, on a 6 they ignore damage. Fortune on Eldar is another.

 

'Smite' spamming is good because it can be done from 12" away or 24" inside 'Psychic Locus' aura. It also comes free on most of our units, and most of them can Teleport Strike or be 'Gated' into range effectively. 

[TheMostGood]

Due to the wording of FnP, some people were suggesting (miniwargaming guys specifically; take that how you want) that FnP is rolled on each wound suffered. So if you deal 4 Mortal wounds from a single weapon shot, you have to roll 4 5+, not one dice. If it was a 6 wounds from a single shot that was not saved, then 6 5+ rolls, etc. FnP is strong, but just like how terminators didn't rely on their 5++ invulns to save them, I don't think a 5+ FnP is going to help much this edition either. 

 

Having an entire army that has easy access to mortal wounds is still pretty deadly, even for characters lucky enough to have FnP. 

[Valerian]

Due to the wording of FnP, some people were suggesting (miniwargaming guys specifically; take that how you want) that FnP is rolled on each wound suffered. So if you deal 4 Mortal wounds from a single weapon shot, you have to roll 4 5+, not one dice. If it was a 6 wounds from a single shot that was not saved, then 6 5+ rolls, etc. 

 

That's exactly correct.  That's how it is supposed to work.

[Zamtro]

 

Due to the wording of FnP, some people were suggesting (miniwargaming guys specifically; take that how you want) that FnP is rolled on each wound suffered. So if you deal 4 Mortal wounds from a single weapon shot, you have to roll 4 5+, not one dice. If it was a 6 wounds from a single shot that was not saved, then 6 5+ rolls, etc. 

 

That's exactly correct.  That's how it is supposed to work.

 

 

Is it though? I thought they made a differentiation between Wounds and Damage, and if a wound is ignored it does 0 'Damage'. I'm not fussed if it goes either way, just seeking clarity.

[Valerian]

Damage tells you how many Wounds are applied.  So, when you roll 6+ to ignore Wounds, you do it per Wound, not per 'Wounding Hit', which is different.  

 

 

EDIT: To further elaborate, it works like this :

 

1.  Roll to hit.

 

2.  If you hit, roll to wound (verb).

 

3.  If you wound (verb), target makes a save.

 

4.  If target fails the save, apply fixed damage of wounds (noun) (e.g. D2 from an Ork Killsaw) or roll to determine amount of wounds (noun) based on variable damage (e.g. roll a d6 for a Lascannon).

 

5.  If target has an Ability like old-school FNP, roll to avoid each wound (noun) that was applied in step 4 separately.  

Edited June 23, 2017 by Valerian

[duz_]

"FNP" is less of an all or nothing mechanic now

Instead of ignoring the wound(damage) altogether, you might still take a wound or two due to how the damage mechanic works and the fact FNP is based off damage not wounds. 

 

It can get confusing when a lot of Wounds only do 1 Damage,  and damage removes a wound from your stat line...
Perhaps they should have re-worded roll to wound to roll to injure and then damage removes wounds?

[Zamtro]

Cool thanks :)

[SyNidus]

I find Castellan Crowe is actually pretty good, especially for his proce tags. The amount of hits & wounds he does in CC is amazing. Of course it has no AP, but weight of dice is enough to force wounds through

[the jeske]

But what is he good against? stuff that has low enough armor for him to actualy wound is going to be swarm, and everything with an armor better then +5 makes him really bad. And this all happen in the optimal position when he is the one doing the charge, because if he gets charged he is just dead. Now the power armored champ isn't much either, but at least he eats attacks better, specially vs anything with a save mod.