FW index available to purchase/download

[Raven1]

Because every other faction gets bonuses to FW units except two. Because when the faction books comes out units not on the army lists will most likely be excluded. Because it is a stupid and silly oversight that shouldn't have happened?

[Gordon Shumway]

Because every other faction gets bonuses to FW units except two. Because when the faction books comes out units not on the army lists will most likely be excluded. Because it is a stupid and silly oversight that shouldn't have happened?

Where are you seeing that anything is "excluded" in DG or TS? They just don't have the ability to label certain units as their faction, so those certain units can't benefit from faction specific buffs. Those units can still exist in your army and function like units in any other CSM army not labeled TS or DG. Really, I see it as boons that only those two factions get to certain units.

[Sception]

In an army otherwise entirely comprised as TS or DG, units that do not having the TS or DG keyword objectively do not function like any other units.  Additionally, rules have fluff implications.  If a unit can't have the Death Guard keyword, that kind of implies that the Death Guard don't really use or have those units.  And, yes, eventually we expect there to be specific faction codeces with specific benefits for armies that stick to those faction keywords.  It already matters some that blight drones can't have the death guard keyword, and it will matter much more within a couple months.  It's not game ruining, but it is distinctly annoying.

[Gordon Shumway]

I guess I'm still not seeing how this is such a huge restriction that people are getting upset over, especially considering we have so many options for multiple detatchments. Yeah, fluff wise I can see where blight drones probably should be DG, but practically speaking, where is the restriction exactly on the tabletop?

[Heliomanes]

It's not a huge restriction strategywise, but it is annoying. Having HQs which give neat bonuses will incentivise you to get more of the units which can get those buffs. So to get the most out of them, you'll want to stay as close to a single Legion as possible. This just feels like a tax against Thousand Sons and Death Guard players who'd like to play with more than 3 kinds of units. This is made worse by the incredibly restrictive state of the current army lists.

For instance: I've recently bought the Osiron dreadnaughts and Sekhmet terminators for my Thousand sons from FW. Since the Sekhmet come with axes and their champion does not have a staff, they can't be Scarab Occult. But the Thousand Sons can't be regular terminators, so they won't get bonuses from Exalted Sorcerers or Magnus. The game would much rather reward me for buying a Chaos Lord for them, but that doesn't feel like a proper Sons army for me. I'd also like to use my new Ksons contemptors, and RAW I'd get much more out of playing them in their own army without Magnus, Exalted sorcerers, Ahriman and so on, but with a Khorne lord. That's really annoying. Good game design should drive people towards making fluffy choices in theme with the game's setting, not punish them for doing so.

[Sception]

People aren't upset over it, they're annoyed by it.  Because it's annoying, with both rule and fluff implications that are, again, not upsetting, but awkward and frustrating, and, yeah, annoying.  Blight Drones not being able to take the Death Guard keyword would be like if Abaddon didn't have the Black Legion keyword.  Not a huge mechanical problem, but still, you'd be rolling your eyes at it every time you used the unit, distracting you slightly from the fun of the game.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Dunno if this has been said already, but the garbage Chaos Spartan that everyone's complaining about appears to be a typo in the iPad version of the book, or maybe the print version. Not sure. My EPUB version has the proper Strength 8.

 

 

 

EDIT: Cropped the image to reduce completeness.

Edited June 18, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Shinespider]

I guess I'm still not seeing how this is such a huge restriction that people are getting upset over, especially considering we have so many options for multiple detatchments. Yeah, fluff wise I can see where blight drones probably should be DG, but practically speaking, where is the restriction exactly on the tabletop?

 

The restriction is auras. Characters give bonuses to their Legion. If you have some "Death Guard" which are your GW units  and some "Geath Duard" which are your forgeworld units then various buffs and bonuses will apply to one but not the other. TSons and Death Guard are the only Legions that have this problem, everyone else can just use the Legion tag wherever they want... at least until their codices come out. 

[Gordon Shumway]

 

I guess I'm still not seeing how this is such a huge restriction that people are getting upset over, especially considering we have so many options for multiple detatchments. Yeah, fluff wise I can see where blight drones probably should be DG, but practically speaking, where is the restriction exactly on the tabletop?

 

 

The restriction is auras. Characters give bonuses to their Legion. If you have some "Death Guard" which are your GW units  and some "Geath Duard" which are your forgeworld units then various buffs and bonuses will apply to one but not the other. TSons and Death Guard are the only Legions that have this problem, everyone else can just use the Legion tag wherever they want... at least until their codices come out.

Conversely, only Death Guard factions can benefit from auras of Death Guard characters and no other <legion> can. The biggest (only) real problem I can see is lack of certain transport options. All else is just a lack of benefits, not restrictions.

[Joe]

mfw no Sonic weaponry for Decimator's or Dreadnoughts.

 

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/962/HeresyStamp.png

[RedFox]

So can FW units (ex: Spartan) be given the Death Guard legion keyword or because they're not listed in the chaos index DG list, they can't be taken in a pure DG detachement?

 

Do the chaos imperial armour book address this problem...? Also is there a special Relic rules like in the loyalist book. Thanks.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So can FW units (ex: Spartan) be given the Death Guard legion keyword or because they're not listed in the chaos index DG list, they can't be taken in a pure DG detachement?

 

Do the chaos imperial armour book address this problem...? Also is there a special Relic rules like in the loyalist book. Thanks.

No Relic special rule. No comment on the DG legion issue in the book, which by default means that because the datasheets are not on the relevant page, they can't be given the DEATH GUARD tag. Necrosius is the only model that has DEATH GUARD in the whole book, I believe.

 

There may be a change to that in the future with an FAQ or book update, but for now, that's the way it is. Also, with the Plague Hulk in particular, that might not change even with an update because it has the Daemonic Ritual rule (can be summoned) and was clearly intended to be a Chaos Daemons unit.

[RedFox]

So what's the point of having the Legion keyword then?

 

I am hoping the first chaos codex (DG) will clear this out....

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So what's the point of having the Legion keyword then?

 

I am hoping the first chaos codex (DG) will clear this out....

Because all the other Legions except DG and Thousand Sons have no prohibition about which units can be given their Keywords. You can totally have a World Eaters or Emperor's Children Spartan.

 

Also, it's worth noting that both TS and DG (and hell, even Chaos Daemons) can use the Dreadclaw and Kharybdis because those both say "<LEGION> or <MARK OF CHAOS>", so if you meet either requirement, you're good. So you can have TS in a TZEENTCH Dreadclaw and DG in a NURGLE one.

[Galron]

Tired of painting guard, going to pull my IW out and work on some more of them for a bit. How does a Typhon Siege Tank look in the new rules? Is it about the same points as a Spartan?

 

Is there still a Contemptor Mortis at all or was the dakka nerf only to standard contemptors?

 

Ordered all four books but they aren't shipping until the other two come out.

[adreal]

No contemptor mortis for chaos at least

 

Ran two with kheres and powerfist in a game tonight, really like them, range hurt once but they actually do damage in combat, which is a major plus

[Brother Aiwass]

No contemptor mortis for chaos at least

 Well, we at least have the dual chainfist soulburner contemptor :D

[Sonoftherubric21]

I will be house-ruling that, as its not fair strictly or in any sense that DG or TS are just "nah nah nah nah! you get nothing!" 

Nope; obviously not the intent. and I will be running it as if they can take the keywords as its PATHETICALLY obvious that's the intent. 

 

Everyone knows that FW screws up on RAW on occasion.  and unless FW issues a statement saying "this was on purpose, we dont want DG/TS to have access to this stuff" I will play it as if we can give them said legion keywords. 

[Brother Aiwass]

I will be house-ruling that, as its not fair strictly or in any sense that DG or TS are just "nah nah nah nah! you get nothing!" 

 

Nope; obviously not the intent. and I will be running it as if they can take the keywords as its PATHETICALLY obvious that's the intent. 

 

Everyone knows that FW screws up on RAW on occasion.  and unless FW issues a statement saying "this was on purpose, we dont want DG/TS to have access to this stuff" I will play it as if we can give them said legion keywords. 

Again, TS and DG have restricted options in the index because the index is just a transition book. If/when an actual codex is released and you still have restrictions without other new units to fill the gaps, well, then you may have right to complain. You don't know (nor do I) what is the intent behind GW/FW rules.

 

I do agree that you may feel cheated and want to houserule what do you think its wrong, and I'm happy for you if your friends agree on that. However, it doesn't feel right to me to do that. Mind you, if we played against each other, I would have no problem with you houseruling that, but I wouldn't do the same.

[Khornestar]

Tired of painting guard, going to pull my IW out and work on some more of them for a bit. How does a Typhon Siege Tank look in the new rules? Is it about the same points as a Spartan?

 

Is there still a Contemptor Mortis at all or was the dakka nerf only to standard contemptors?

 

Ordered all four books but they aren't shipping until the other two come out.

 

The Typhon is pretty damn good, if not pricy (as with everything in the book, more or less):

 

S8 T9 W22 A7 Ld9 Sv2+

Degrading M/WS/BS: 10"/5+/2+ -> 5"/4+/3+ -> 3"/3+/4+

 

The dreadhammer siege cannon is 24": Heavy 2D6 S10 AP-5 D3 range increases to 48" if stationary

 

Has steel behemoth rule. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

I will be house-ruling that, as its not fair strictly or in any sense that DG or TS are just "nah nah nah nah! you get nothing!" 

 

Nope; obviously not the intent. and I will be running it as if they can take the keywords as its PATHETICALLY obvious that's the intent. 

 

Everyone knows that FW screws up on RAW on occasion.  and unless FW issues a statement saying "this was on purpose, we dont want DG/TS to have access to this stuff" I will play it as if we can give them said legion keywords. 

Again, TS and DG have restricted options in the index because the index is just a transition book. If/when an actual codex is released and you still have restrictions without other new units to fill the gaps, well, then you may have right to complain. You don't know (nor do I) what is the intent behind GW/FW rules.

 

I do agree that you may feel cheated and want to houserule what do you think its wrong, and I'm happy for you if your friends agree on that. However, it doesn't feel right to me to do that. Mind you, if we played against each other, I would have no problem with you houseruling that, but I wouldn't do the same.

 

 

That is entirely fair, but I DO feel cheated in that regard. This would not be the first case of FW omitting important information (probably due to lack of communication with GW proper)

 

The intent is obvious; if you give us "Chaos Contemptors" and they have models for ALL 9 chaos legions....the intent is everyone should be able to take a Legion level chaos Contemptor. It doesn't make any sense to restrict from a game sense OR a thematic sense.  I obviously wouldn't just do it, ill tell my opponent the issue and show them what I am talking about, but I don't see my local FLGS or Meta having an issue with it until we get official word from FW of course. 

[Lagrath]

Really, really sucks that you can't mark the Giant Spawn to any Chaos god!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

No contemptor mortis for chaos at least

 Well, we at least have the dual chainfist soulburner contemptor

 

 

That's the one I mentioned that has a longshot chance at soloing a Knight if it gets to contact in the correct way. Such a beast. 5 Attacks, Hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's. AP-4, 4 damage per hit....and that's after an average of 4 Mortals from the Soulburners.

 

FYI, don't bother going dual Hellflamer. You want the Decimator for that madness at a lower price point and with higher speed to get into position.

 

 

 

Combine with Warptime for some glorious shenanigans.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Tired of painting guard, going to pull my IW out and work on some more of them for a bit. How does a Typhon Siege Tank look in the new rules? Is it about the same points as a Spartan?

 

Is there still a Contemptor Mortis at all or was the dakka nerf only to standard contemptors?

 

Ordered all four books but they aren't shipping until the other two come out.

 

The Typhon is pretty damn good, if not pricy (as with everything in the book, more or less):

 

S8 T9 W22 A7 Ld9 Sv2+

Degrading M/WS/BS: 10"/5+/2+ -> 5"/4+/3+ -> 3"/3+/4+

 

The dreadhammer siege cannon is 24": Heavy 2D6 S10 AP-5 D3 range increases to 48" if stationary

 

Has steel behemoth rule. 

 

 

It costs about 10 heavy bolters more than if you tricked it out fully last edition, though it can't have the Multi-Melta anymore, it does seem tougher. Too bad about the MM. Had to cut mine off last night.

[Khornestar]

Another example of silly loadout changes. Oh well.